U.S. government shutdown over

Congress votes to end shutdown, avoid U.S. default.
Associated Press
Oct 17, 2013


Up against a deadline, Congress passed and sent a waiting President Barack Obama legislation late Wednesday night to avoid a threatened national default and end the 16-day partial government shutdown, the culmination of an epic political drama that placed the U.S. economy at risk.

The Senate voted first, a bipartisan 81-18 at midevening. That cleared the way for a final 285-144 vote in the Republican-controlled House about two hours later on the legislation, which hewed strictly to the terms Obama laid down when the twin crises erupted more than three weeks ago.

The legislation would permit the Treasury to borrow normally through Feb. 7 or perhaps a month longer, and fund the government through Jan. 15. More than 2 million federal workers would be paid — those who had remained on the job and those who had been furloughed.

After the Senate approved the measure, Obama hailed the vote and said he would sign it immediately after it reached his desk. "We'll begin reopening our government immediately and we can begin to lift this cloud of uncertainty from our businesses and the American people."

Later, in the House, Rep. Harold Rogers, R-Ky., said, "After two long weeks, it is time to end this government shutdown. It's time to take the threat of default off the table. It's time to restore some sanity to this place."

The stock market surged higher at the prospect of an end to the crisis that also had threatened to shake confidence in the U.S. economy overseas.

Republicans conceded defeat after a long struggle. "We fought the good fight. We just didn't win," conceded House Speaker John Boehner as lawmakers lined up to vote on a bill that includes nothing for GOP lawmakers who had demand to eradicate or scale back Obama's signature health care overhaul.

"The compromise we reached will provide our economy with the stability it desperately needs," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, declaring that the nation "came to the brink of disaster" before sealing an agreement.

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, who negotiated the deal with Reid, emphasized that it preserved a round of spending cuts negotiated two years ago with Obama and Democrats. As a result, he said, "government spending has declined for two years in a row" for the first time since the Korean War. "And we're not going back on this agreement," he added.

Only a temporary truce, the measure set a time frame of early this winter for the next likely clash between Obama and the Republicans over spending and borrowing.

But for now, government was lurching back to life. Within moments of the House's vote, Sylvia Mathews Burwell, director of the Office of Management and Budget, issued a statement saying "employees should expect to return to work in the morning."

After weeks of gridlock, the measure had support from the White House, most if not all Democrats in Congress and many Republicans fearful of the economic impact of a default.

Boehner and the rest of the top GOP leadership told their rank and file in advance they would vote for the measure. In the end, Republicans split 144 against and 87 in favor. All 198 voting Democrats were supporters.

Final passage came in plenty of time to assure Obama's signature before the administration's 11:59 p.m. Thursday deadline.

That was when Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew said the government would reach the current $16.7 trillion debt limit and could no longer borrow to meet its obligations.

Tea party-aligned lawmakers who triggered the shutdown that began on Oct. 1 said they would vote against the legislation. Significantly, though, Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and others agreed not to use the Senate's cumbersome 18th-century rules to slow the bill's progress.

In remarks on the Senate floor, Cruz said the measure was "a terrible deal" and criticized fellow Republicans for lining up behind it.

McConnell made no mention of the polls showing that the shutdown and flirtation with default have sent Republicans' public approval plummeting and have left the party badly split nationally as well as in his home state of Kentucky. He received a prompt reminder, though.

"When the stakes are highest Mitch McConnell can always be counted on to sell out conservatives," said Matt Bevin, who is challenging the party leader from the right in a 2014 election primary.

More broadly, national tea party groups and their allies underscored the internal divide. The Club for Growth urged lawmakers to vote against the congressional measure, and said it would factor in the organization's decision when it decides which candidates to support in midterm elections next year.

"There are no significant changes to Obamacare, nothing on the other major entitlements that are racked with trillions in unfunded liabilities, and no meaningful spending cuts either. If this bill passes, Congress will kick the can down the road, yet again," the group said.

Even so, support for Boehner appeared solid inside his fractious rank and file. "There are no plots, plans or rumblings that I know of. And I was part of one in January, so I'd probably be on the whip list for that," said Rep. Thomas Massie of Kentucky.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce came out in favor of the bill.

Simplicity at the end, there was next to nothing in the agreement beyond authorization for the Treasury to resume borrowing and funding for the government to reopen.

House and Senate negotiators are to meet this fall to see if progress is possible on a broad deficit-reduction compromise of the type that has proved elusive in the current era of divided government.

Additionally, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius is to be required to produce a report stating that her agency is capable of verifying the incomes of individuals who apply for federal subsidies under the health care law known as Obamacare.

Obama had insisted repeatedly he would not pay "ransom" by yielding to Republican demands for significant changes to the health care overhaul in exchange for funding the government and permitting Treasury the borrowing latitude to pay the nation's bills.

Other issues fell by the wayside in a final deal, including a Republican proposal for the suspension of a medical device tax in Obamacare and a Democratic call to delay a fee on companies for everyone who receives health coverage under an employer-sponsored plan.

The gradual withering of Republicans' Obamacare-related demands defined the arc of the struggle that has occupied virtually all of Congress' time for the past three weeks.

The shutdown began on Oct. 1 after Cruz and his tea party allies in the House demanded the defunding of the health care law as a trade for providing essential government funding.

Obama and Reid refused, then refused again and again as Boehner gradually scaled back Republican demands.

The shutdown initially idled about 800,000 workers, but that soon fell to about 350,000 after Congress agreed to let furloughed Pentagon employees return to work. While there was widespread inconvenience, the mail was delivered, Medicare continued to pay doctors who treated seniors and there was no interruption in Social Security benefits.

Still, national parks were closed to the detriment of tourists and local businesses, government research scientists were sent home and Food and Drug Administration inspectors worked only sporadically.




And the entitlement millions are dancing in the streets.

2cents's picture

No, too busy clearing the shelves at Walmart : )


BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! I work, I save, I live good. If your doing what your supposed to financially you won't be concerned about the less fortunate. Your embarassing yourself.

yeswee's picture

@kate Start working at home with Google! Its by-far the best job Ive had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. Useful Reference http://ow.ly/pAu07

BULLISDEEP's picture

Re: "Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius is to be required to produce a report stating that her agency is capable of verifying the incomes of individuals who apply for federal subsidies,"

According to the IRS, Americans ALREADY underpay their federal income tax by $385 billion a year.

What's a few billion more in waste, fraud and abuse between friends?

Dr. Information

More can kicking. More debt. How American.

thinkagain's picture

In the years following the Great Economic Collapse of Obama’s Socialist Republic, during the dark, cold nights, huddled around campfires, Democrats will hear their children asking “why did you let this happen?”.

As they hang their head in shame, they’ll explain, “In our foolishness, we thought the country was able to remain solvent by raising new debts".

When this once great country struggles to rebuild from the ashes, monuments will be erected, enshrining in stone the words of the tea party, who’s wisdom foresaw the impending doom, in the hopes that history won’t repeat itself again.

2cents's picture

LOL, that reminds me of a good old "Mad Max" movie!

Dr. Information

@thinkagain. No they will take the more easier route. They will blame Bush.


"Thus, credit expansion unavoidably results in the economic crisis. In either of the two alternatives, the artificial boom is doomed. In the long run, it must collapse."

"The question is only whether one should continue expansionism until the final collapse of the whole monetary and credit system or whether one should stop at an earlier date. The sooner one stops, the less grievous are the damages inflicted and the losses suffered."

- Ludwig Von Mises


Financial crises are occurring more frequently. We've had two since the beginning of the 21st Century: 2000 & 2007-08.

We have only "papered over" the last one with more cheap money and easy credit. Thank you Mr. Bernanke!

The Mkt. was up nicely yesterday. The S&P was near it's all time highs.

The S&P low was 666 in Mar. 2009

Yesterday it was at 1721.

That's a 158% increase!

How long do ya think that this bull market can continue?

From my readings, some believe we're OK for the remainder of the yr. and throughout 2014, but WATCH out in 2015.


It truly is a sad day for all americans. We have expanded our debts with NO possible way to ever pay them off. If ANY person that supports this would live their life style like this you would be living in the gutters or worse.

Financial ruin is our path.


You would prefer the country went into default? If yes, then you better learn what that would mean to every worker in the country first.


Yes. I have thought about the ramifications. I have also weighed in the thought process of our gov't continuing it's habit of exploding our budget past the point of financial ruin. Have you thought about the day that China, Japan and many other countries do one of two things, either ask for their money back or just stop buying our T-bills?

Let me ask you this question 44846. Do you believe that a homeless person that has nothing to his name can walk into a bank and get a loan for $100,000? Probably not. So why do people find it acceptable that our gov't can "borrow" from social security by using IOU's that are virtually worthless?

Our gov't is screwed up. Many to blame. When do we try and start to fix it? It will be painful. But we have to start!


The Republicans warned the public and now they must set back and wait for it to all unfold and pick up the pieces next November. A whole year of Obamacare will drive people to the poles when it costs people money and their jobs. The people will be begging the Republicans to put the mess back together again.

Stop It

What a dismal outlook to rely on just one party. What a dismal outlook to just rely on the only two we have that make sure to keep it that way acting like they are fighting each other, while stealing from us. Why doesn't gov't have the same as those they govern?

Who put them in office? Follow the money.

Eph 2 8-10



Welcome to The new Divided States of obamica ..... were everyone can be equally poor, freedom of speech is a thing of the past, guns belong only to those who are criminal, health uncare is forced down everyone's throat as they gag and gasp to breath, and I'm just going to shut up because this new country obamica that we live in is quite disgusting.


The RNC set to announce the location of the next GOP convention...abandoned phone booth. Should be plenty of meeting space in there.


Re: "abandoned phone booth"

Funny. However -

The Nov. 2014 mid-term elections are an eternity away in political time.

Plenty of time for voters to discover the lies surrounding Obam☭are and take out their frustration on the Dems accordingly.


Winnie, you would prfer the country go into default?? No, you would bi-ch no matter what.

Erie County Resident

OD'd on catnip again I see.

The Big Dog's back

LMFAO meowmix.


Good one meow.


Another butt kicking by the President! When will they learn? Always bet on black!


Re: "Another butt kicking by the President!"

A Pyrrhic victory for the country.


2cents's picture

"Always bet on black!"

LOL, he is a mutt so I guess the ball falls between the slots into no mans land!


Mutts win elections too!


Re: "win elections"

Winning and being Pres. are two different skill sets as the Puppet-in-Chief clearly demonstrates.


Deertracks.... playing the race card even when you don't need too

Darwin's choice

Well,a spade is a spade, not diamond......


and teabaggers should grow a "heart" and join a better "club".


Re: "and teabaggers should grow a 'heart' and join a better 'club'."

Not-to-worry, the cops are their way to raid the govt's casino.

Erie County Resident

The Demoncraptic parties creed...
Like the Tinman said if i only had a brain.
Forward socialist sheeple.

The Big Dog's back

Oh, Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have


Is that really a pipe in your mouth Popeye? Doesn't look like one!


Advice to the "mutt" from a REAL black man:

"...f--king conjugate."

"Samuel L. Jackson To Obama: 'Stop Trying To Relate, Be F--king Presidential'"



That really mean to tell them to f*ck off!


Re: "That really mean,"???

Grammar and reading comprehension aren't your stronger suits eh?

Undoubtedly due to your p*ss poor public school education.


Huffington Post is worthless you said , Commietango.


Don't forget the 2.2 Billion Mitch McConnell got out of the deal to build a dam in Kentucky. Not all of the spending is on the Democratic side.


Re: "build a dam in Kentucky."

Not unlike all the "sweeteners" that were passed out to Dems in order to support and vote for Obam☭are.

We have the "best govt. money can buy" and the price keeps goin' up.

2016 - $20T in debt. Wanna bet?


Shhhhhhhhhhhh! Pooh may hear you!


"Finally, and as expected, it contains language requiring a payment of $174,000 to the widow of Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.), who died in June at age 89."

Yep! Nothing like givin' more hard earned taxapayer money to rich Democrats. LOL.


Really are you ...

Congress held this passage up because of "Obamacare". Lol! They should have held the passage up for something more bothersome, say like, the NSA. Don't they know or care that the NSA is also monitoring all of their phone calls, Internet sites visited, blogs, and tweets. During the shutdown there were no US terrorist attacks. The only people who were attacking America's best interest was Congress.


Deer that's funny as ...well. Always bet on black. Good 1!


Do any of you really understand the problem?

This is not the fault of a Republican or a Democrat. The whole Washington DC problem is a ruling class that treats the rest of the country as peasents. The two party system is a scam .

Open your eyes!


Do any of you really understand the problem?

This is not the fault of a Republican or a Democrat. The whole Washington DC problem is a ruling class that treats the rest of the country as peasents. The two party system is a scam .

Open your eyes!


Sorry for the double post.

Stop It

Those that have posted here as long as you know how to just make it something else. False apology unaccepted.

AJ Oliver

The teabaggers were quite willing to do damage to the country with their hostage taking tactics.
Govt spending is not the issue - it is declining as a % of the economy. The issue is that, at all levels of govt., our "leaders" (esp GOP) are no longer willing to tax the ONE PERCENT. My tax rate is higher than Warren Buffet's - and yours is too.


Spending is the issue, AJ. Smoke and mirrors is doing a great job masking the issue. The gov't is on pace for record tax revenues and instead of paying down debt the gov't continues to increase it's spending!

Warren Buffet is not being taxed on his employment income as he doesn't actually have a job according to him. He is being taxed on investment income.


Re: "My tax rate is higher than Warren Buffet's"

It's spelled "Buffett".

Mr. Buffett is ALWAYS welcome to send the U.S. Treasury a check.

And why should he squeak out of paying estate taxes by leaving his wealth to charity huh?


Right, buffet is one of those all you can eat things.


Re: "The teabaggers were quite willing to do damage to the country with their hostage taking tactics."

And the tax, borrow, print and spend bastardized Keynesian Progressives have been doing fiscal and financial damage to this country for over four decades.

The last honest balanced federal budget was during the Eisenhower Admin.


The Senate voted to end the shutdown and raise the debt ceiling, 81-18.
Or as they refer to it w/in the Tea Party dyslexicon, a tie.

Enough with my sad attempt at humor . . .

It's terribly frustrating and totally irresponsible that Congress & the President decided that this little exercise was so much fun they want to schedule it as a quarterly event. With the ACA not being "settled law", with the White House stonewalling on providing any ACA data on enrollment problems and the sign-up figures, *IF* they do indeed publish the ACA numbers next month like they have been deferring all along that they'll do, and that's a big *IF* considering the problems they've been having, I have every belief the GOP will use this information, this time, as a means to achieve some measure of success in getting one or more aspects of the ACA repealed or delayed in implementation before the next "quarterly" rehash.

The only thing positive out of last night's agreement is that all government workers are now officially working and being payed once again.

AJ Oliver

The righties also used the tactics of hysteria to oppose medicare, social security and just about anything else that benefits average folks.
Here's Reagan, "[I]f you don't [stop Medicare] and I don't do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it once was like in America when men were free."


Re: "The righties also used the tactics of hysteria to oppose medicare, social security and just about anything else that benefits average folks."

So how much wealth out of the private sector should ultimately be transferred to the incompetent public sector; 50,80,100%?

An estimated $60-$90B annually (the govt. doesn't keep figures) is lost through Medicare ALONE because of waste, fraud and abuse.


If a private co. was as incompetent, it would go bankrupt.

Should we hire thousands of more bureaucrats in order to watch 'em?

Darwin's choice


The math doesn't lie....democrat or republican...!

The Big Dog's back

I think we should rename the White House to the Black House.

2cents's picture

It is getting close, this country looks like "toast" to the rest of the world laughing at the US.


...thanks to the Republicans.


How about Casablanca for the illegals?

AJ Oliver

How about you righties go down to the Senior Center and volunteer for Meals on Wheels? The sequester level funding enshrined in the government re-opening locked in big cuts.
The prospect of hungry seniors makes you happy, doesn't it? Come on, admit it !!
Alexandria, VA, June 4, 2013 - New information detailing the devastating impact of the federally mandated budget cuts known as sequester was released today by the Meals On Wheels Association of America.
Programs have been forced to cut, on average, 364 meals per week;
Over 70% are establishing or adding to existing waiting lists;
Programs have increased their waiting lists on average by 58 seniors;
40% of programs responding have eliminated staff positions; and
One in six are closing congregate meals sites or home-delivered meal programs


No one in this county is going without a meal, but I'll bet there are many receiving the meal that should not be, Fraud.

AJ Oliver

Before you ask, yes, I have volunteered for MOW. How about you?

Darwin's choice

I have to ask....exactly who decided what/which "sections" of the government would be shutdown? Surely someone had to make the decisions...

I would say Obama....!


Re: "I have volunteered for MOW."

Good for you.

I have other institutions and individuals I provide for, but don't feel the selfish, self-serving egotistical need to crow about it.


Yes, Contango, you volunteer to bring a side dish to all of the Republican Women's potlucks. I heard you also put time in with a Mobile Dentist as a gopher when they're out and about fixing all the teabaggers toofers (or in most cases, toof.)


Re: "you volunteer"

Nothing but feline turds.

So to whom do you donate and/or volunteer?

Still NOT a Repub - Independent.


Anyone who classifies their self as an Independent is someone who is too embarrassed to identify their self as a republican/teatard. I'm not a volunteer for anything right now, see, I'm busy working a full time job and I also have a husband. You know how demanding you fella's can be with your women folk right??


Re: "republican/teatard."

Nope – Independent (fiscal conservative/social liberal).

Only the small-minded see the "real" political world in monochrome.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Wow you just can't win can you Contango? Even though you aren't a Republican you simply HAVE to be for the sole reason you aren't a card-carrying Democrat. It seems to be the only logical choice, how could you NOT be the only choice in all of political Creation? Sheesh...

Meowmix, you certainly seem to have a very strong attachment to the Democratic Party. That's fine. People carry memberships to all kinds of organizations. But when you represent yours in the way that you do, you actually make it unappealing to those who aren't affiliated with that club to join because we have those kinds of comments to look forward to or we ask ourselves "if people like that are so prominent, why do I want to be there?"

There are many bars or other establishments in the area that have reputations for being one thing or another, I know I'm not immune to it either. The Westboro Baptist Church sure doesn't convince too many atheists/agnostics/other to sign up for their brand of salvation. In fact I would wager a great many Christians are embarrassed to have such a group claim affiliation with their sect. Get what I'm saying?

So, please, do your party a favor and stop being so incendiary. You will do more good explaining your own thoughts (or being able to understand and explain what a party tells you its position is) than calling names and making silly conclusions. Appeal to intelligence and reason, appeal to humanity's intrinsic desire to learn and be better.

If you seek a balance in my feedback thinking I am picking on you or Democrats, meowmix, there are many times I wish Contango didn't call names and poke back at Dog and others. It doesn't excuse it, but I credit him with the fact he backs up what he says most of the time despite it. When other conservative commenters start talking about welfare parasites being the norm and other such things my eyes roll back and I froth at the mouth from my brain shutting down at the broad-brush accusations made there, too.

You would be amazed at how many people you could get to join you in voting (D) or supporting their policies if you and others would just stop berating people who ask questions and put measured thought into things. Even if it is because we are uncertain or less educated than you, then please EXPLAIN it to us. Take the role of teacher, of mentor, and guide us through analysis and thought experiments. Provide sources. Something other than this numbing, immature superiority complex that is besmirching a once grand political party.

I and others here and abroad are actually capable of a great deal of respect for others even if we disagree with them for the sole purpose they come across as civil and knowledgeable. In fact, it then creates a fun challenge to try and outsmart the paragon so to speak. A friendly rivalry.

So I won't tell you how to talk meowmix (or Contango since you were brought up here too), but if you want some friendly advice offered non-sarcastically nor provocatively then there it is. The same I offered to Gardenman and just as well when I replied to your question of "what can we do" in the other thread. On that note, did you have any questions? Can I offer more support on how we can break dependency on the establishment of two parties?

Stop It

+1. A voice of sanity that actually takes time to think. Too many times I look around for good debate and usually find ad hominems instead.

I personally don't see much difference in either party. Yes, we really only have two because they tend to have influence to push out any and all newcomers. It also seems that they only care about themselves.

I don't like the Tea Party, but I like what they did. They stirred up the crap in the pee pot and made the others play "the game". They just should have done it longer. It didn't hurt enough to make the two party system quit "the game" and do what it is we voted them to do. That would entail actual work and participation in making this nation what it was intended to be.


Re: "how we can break dependency on the establishment of two parties?"

Next-to-impossible. They've pulled up the gangplank and pulled away from the dock.

Look for example at federal matching campaign funds - the Dems and the Repubs get the lion's share.

Other parties have to pull about 5% of the vote in the previous election in order to qualify for funds.

They've stacked the deck.

(Mixed metaphors are the best.)

Historically in the U.S., minor parties or movements of any popularity have tended to be swallowed up by the majors.

IMO, the socialists have essentially taken over the Dems.

Look at the 1932 Socialist Party Platform and compare it to their political philosophy today.


Or, FDR's "Second Bill of Rights."


So, essentially the only "salvation" for the TEA Party, the libertarians and other fiscal conservatives in our current political campaign structure is to gain control of the Republican Party.


Hero-- I appreciate your constructive criticism of my opinions and how I express them on this forum. But I must ask, why do you feel it necessary to essentially berate me for comments that I type, whether they be serious or in jest? Quite frankly, I find your sanctimonious orations boring most of the time. You were correct, I have a VERY strong attachment to the Democratic party. I support it's agenda because I agree with it. I don't blindly follow. So, when time after time when my cohorts and I are abased by the name calling or the insinuation that we are somehow public assistance recipients, I shoot back. So, if in the future, you feel the need to once again offer me your advice, take this bit first from me. Save it.


Re: "I have a VERY strong attachment to the Democratic party."

Frankly, I don't mind the socialists.

I just wish that they'd loot their own cache of believers and quit stealing money from those of us who don't support their wrong headed centralized planning Ponzi schemes.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

I look forward to more posts like you in this format. This is the kind of discussion/discourse that is preferred. I don't like it when Democrats are called freeloaders any more than when I see conservatives called "teatards". Especially when there is no context given in a single post or over the multiple ones you have made that distinguish jest from seriousness. On that point and many more you'll find we are aligned.

In my defense, my constructive criticism was offered UNsanctimoniously as I do not claim to be superior or "more correct" morally than you. Rather, I was hoping that by bringing this up calling people names while vigorously claiming allegiance to a party does little to actually support the organization to which you belong.

If you could be one of the few on here to articulate liberal and/or Democratic points I would, for one, be sincerely appreciative as there currently is a rather wide open slot for someone to step up and do that here. I'm not talking about bumper stickers or parroting politicians, I mean honest philosophical and economic discussion.

To turn your question for me back on you, what is your solution to fix our woes such as Congressional deadlock or our $17 trillion operating debt? I'm not setting you up for a "gotcha", I am just honestly curious.


Re: "your solution to fix our woes such as Congressional deadlock or our $17 trillion operating debt?"

Ain't one.

According to CBO estimates and others, unless, entitlement spending is addressed, as the baby boomers age it will exponentially expand and eventually engulf our entire fed budget.

Our "best hope" IMO is fiscal & financial collapse followed by austerity and economic common sense.

BTW: Spam filters are blocking me from providing a link. Do a Google search on: "Currency Controls At Chase" (Armstrong economics)

Maybe the beginning of limiting ATM withdrawals? Sumpthin's up with the banks.


To be perfectly honest with you Hero, I find myself more attracted to the social issues that plague this nation more so than the economical ones. On the economical side, I know that higher taxes are essential to lowering our deficit, however, I also know that in order to do this, jobs must be had with wages that a person can live with. Bit by bit, companies are paying lower wages knowing full well that people are expendable due to the vast number that really need jobs. Therefore, treat them unfairly, demand outrageous performance from them, yet pay them nothing for the job they do. I'm not in agreement that a McDonald's worker should earn $15.00 per hour, no more than a line worker for any factory, union or no, should earn $30.00 to put part A into part B. Cut defense spending, increase spending in developing our infrastructure. Make college affordable to all--In fact, give the first two years away free. Socialist? I suppose to a certain extent I am.


Re: "the social issues that plague this nation more so than the economical ones"

Ultimately one-in-the-same.

Socialism eventually succumbs to market forces ‘regardless’ of the best intentions.

Economics is about the allocation of limited resources.

Socialists erroneously appear to believe that there is an endless supply of resources - there ain't.

The question becomes: How best to allocate those resources in the most efficient manner?

IMO, millions of individuals making free market decisions regarding their wants, dreams and desires is better able to handle the allocation of those limited resources than is bureaucratic centralized planning.

BTW: One of my favorite clear writing economists is Thomas Sowell.



By social issues Contango I was referring to the right a woman should have in regards to reproduction, the right of a gay/lesbians to have the same rights as a married couples. I am one of those American's who doesn't feel it necessary to judge, pry nor dictate what goes on in others lives. It's all about the basic credo of this nation...freedom. Without all the religious nuts out there telling folks how to live.


Re: "Without all the religious nuts out there telling folks how to live."

And as a social liberal, I believe that the socialists should likewise not tell "folks how to live" or how to spend their own money.

As is said: Your rights end at the tip of my nose.

Govt. should keep the h*ll out of social issues.

On the other hand, at what age do the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness begin?

Many of those "religious nuts" believe that they begin at conception.

And if you want the federal govt. to pay for abortions on demand - NOW we're also into economic issues.

It ain't so clean and cut is it?


Re: "higher taxes are essential to lowering our deficit,"

Higher taxes on whom?

It would be taking more money out of the private sector and transferring it to the inefficient public sector.

Go ahead, tax the "wealthy."

Consumer spending makes up about 70% of GDP in this country.

The wealthy make up about 30% of that.

If you tax the wealthy, GDP will decline, thereby hurting the economy.

My favorite example is the Democrats' "luxury tax" on expensive boats, cars and jewelry.

Who buys luxury boats, cars and jewelry? The rich right?

The unintended consequence of this wrongheaded legislation was that hundreds of businesses closed and thousands of workers lost their jobs.

"The Lesson of Economic Damage From "Taxing the Rich" With the Punitive Luxury Tax in the 1990s"


The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

I appreciate your opinion, thank you meowmix. We probably synch up on most things social so really any difference we share would be on an economic front. So, learning what is most important to you economically helps build a bridge (speaking of infrastructure) to better having constructive conversations. Yeah, pardon the puns.


Re: "economic front"

Interesting to note that when deciding the recent gay marriage issue that the Supremes used an estate tax case.


If we got rid of the 16th Amend. and all the BS that goes with it, marriage (gay or straight) could perhaps largely return to the religious sphere.

Unfortunately, the State is not likely to relinquish it's taxing power.

Damn those unintended consequences!

The Big Dog's back

Sanctimonious. Exactly the word I was looking for describing h z's posts.

Truth or Dare

Such beautiful political choreography we've been witnessing and just as expected, brought down to the final moments. Left wondering who$e benefitting from such production$.

Stop It


The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

So they ARE running it like a business! If they can have "just in time inventory" (http://smallbusiness.chron.com/p...) then we can have "just in time government". BRILLIANT! Just like you said it takes precise calculations for that style to work and...oh. Oh my. I see...

Stop It

Good article, HZ. I had a boss that would have us build stuff that we actually researched to work as intended (metal fabrication and mechanical things too long to list)only to tear them apart later at his discretion so he could take the materials in as scrap when he needed pocket change. I used to have to do the research and design the things and watch him destroy them at a later date. That is basically why I no longer work for him. It is also why we need to re-establish the way our gov't works. We can't just create so called "busy work" to destroy it later for scrap prices. It makes no sense and is a detriment.


Re: "We can't just create so called "busy work" to destroy it later for scrap prices."

The Soviets at one time were the largest producers of shoes in the world.

The quality was poor, the sizes too small and most ended up being buried in landfills.

But the "industry" employed many people!

Read "Atlas Shrugged" and see what the socialists discovered when they nationalized Francisco d'Anconia's Mexican mine.

Stop It

Yes, yes...I worked for a construction company while in PHX, AZ called Galt Construction. I was only 23 at the time and asked why the company was called that since no-one named Galt even worked there. I was given a book and read it. Capitalism won't let it work. Where is John Galt?