Employment gap between rich, poor widest on record

Middle-income workers are increasingly pushed into lower-wage jobs
Associated Press
Sep 17, 2013

 

The gap in employment rates between America's highest- and lowest-income families has stretched to its widest levels since officials began tracking the data a decade ago, according to an analysis of government data conducted for The Associated Press.

Rates of unemployment for the lowest-income families — those earning less than $20,000 — have topped 21 percent, nearly matching the rate for all workers during the 1930s Great Depression.

U.S. households with income of more than $150,000 a year have an unemployment rate of 3.2 percent, a level traditionally defined as full employment. At the same time, middle-income workers are increasingly pushed into lower-wage jobs. Many of them in turn are displacing lower-skilled, low-income workers, who become unemployed or are forced to work fewer hours, the analysis shows.

"This was no 'equal opportunity' recession or an 'equal opportunity' recovery," said Andrew Sum, director of the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University. "One part of America is in depression, while another part is in full employment."

The findings follow the government's tepid jobs report this month that showed a steep decline in the share of Americans working or looking for work. On Monday, President Barack Obama stressed the need to address widening inequality after decades of a "winner-take-all economy, where a few do better and better and better, while everybody else just treads water or loses ground."

"We have to make the investments necessary to attract good jobs that pay good wages and offer high standards of living," he said.

While the link between income and joblessness may seem apparent, the data are the first to establish how this factor has contributed to the erosion of the middle class, a traditional strength of the U.S. economy.

Based on employment-to-population ratios, which are seen as a reliable gauge of the labor market, the employment disparity between rich and poor households remains at the highest levels in more than a decade, the period for which comparable data are available.

"It's pretty frustrating," says Annette Guerra, 33, of San Antonio, who has been looking for a full-time job since she finished nursing school more than a year ago. During her search, she found that employers had become increasingly picky about an applicant's qualifications in the tight job market, often turning her away because she lacked previous nursing experience or because she wasn't certified in more areas.

Guerra says she now gets by doing "odds and ends" jobs such as a pastry chef, bringing in $500 to $1,000 a month, but she says daily living can be challenging as she cares for her mother, who has end-stage kidney disease.

"For those trying to get ahead, there should be some help from government or companies to boost the economy and provide people with the necessary job training," says Guerra, who hasn't ruled out returning to college to get a business degree once her financial situation is more stable. "I'm optimistic that things will start to look up, but it's hard."

Last year the average length of unemployment for U.S. workers reached 39.5 weeks, the highest level since World War II. The duration of unemployment has since edged lower to 36.5 weeks based on data from January to July, still relatively high historically.

Economists call this a "bumping down" or "crowding out" in the labor market, a domino effect that pushes out lower-income workers, pushes median income downward and contributes to income inequality. Because many mid-skill jobs are being lost to globalization and automation, recent U.S. growth in low-wage jobs has not come fast enough to absorb displaced workers at the bottom.

Low-wage workers are now older and better educated than ever, with especially large jumps in those with at least some college-level training.

"The people at the bottom are going to be continually squeezed, and I don't see this ending anytime soon," said Harvard economist Richard Freeman. "If the economy were growing enough or unions were stronger, it would be possible for the less educated to do better and for the lower income to improve. But in our current world, where we are still adjusting to globalization, that is not very likely to happen."

The figures are based on an analysis of the Census Bureau's Current Population Survey by Sum and Northeastern University economist Ishwar Khatiwada. They are supplemented with material from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's David Autor, an economics professor known for his research on the disappearance of mid-skill positions, as well as John Schmitt, a senior economist at the Center for Economic and Policy Research, a Washington think tank. Mark Rank, a professor at Washington University in St. Louis, analyzed data on poverty.

The overall rise in both the unemployment rate and low-wage jobs due to the recent recession accounts for the record number of people who were stuck in poverty in 2011: 46.2 million, or 15 percent of the population. When the Census Bureau releases new 2012 poverty figures on Tuesday, most experts believe the numbers will show only slight improvement, if any, due to the slow pace of the recovery.

Overall, more than 16 percent of adults ages 16 and older are now "underutilized" in the labor market — that is, they are unemployed, "underemployed" in part-time jobs when full-time work is desired or among the "hidden unemployed" who are not actively job hunting but express a desire for immediate work.

Among households making less than $20,000 a year, the share of underutilized workers jumps to about 40 percent. For those in the $20,000-to-$39,999 category, it's just over 21 percent and about 15 percent for those earning $40,000 to $59,999. At the top of the scale, underutilization affects just 7.2 percent of those in households earning more than $150,000.

By race and ethnicity, black workers in households earning less than $20,000 were the most likely to be underutilized, at 48.4 percent. Low-income Hispanics and whites were almost equally as likely to be underutilized, at 38 percent and 36.8 percent, respectively, compared to 31.8 percent for low-income Asian-Americans.

Loss of jobs in the recent recession has hit younger, less-educated workers especially hard. Fewer teenagers are taking on low-wage jobs as older adults pushed out of disappearing mid-skill jobs, such as bank teller or administrative assistant, move down the ladder.

Recent analysis by the Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research shows that whites and older workers are more pessimistic about their opportunities to advance compared to other groups in the lower-wage workforce.

Eric Reichert, 45, of West Milford, N.J. Reichert, who holds a master's degree in library science, is among the longer-term job seekers. He had hoped to find work as a legal librarian or in a similar research position after he was laid off from a title insurance company in 2008. Reichert now works in a lower-wage administrative records position, also helping to care for his 8-year-old son while his wife works full-time at a pharmaceutical company.

"I'm still looking, and I wish I could say that I will find a better job, but I can no longer say that with confidence," he said. "At this point, I'm reconsidering what I'm going do, but it's not like I'm 24 years old anymore."

 

Comments

phroggy

The bosses fail to realize that their employees make them very rich.

Unassumer

Yup and if it weren't for these employees, which they do not appreciate or pay a decent wage, there would be no business to make them rich. It's time employers valued their employees instead of just use them.

8ballinthesidepocket

Wah wah wah!! Quit whininig and start your own business, cant wait to hear you whine and snivle about why you cant do that either. Could it be your lack of education? Dont have any marketable skills? No unique product ideas? Quit complaining and go do something that adds some value, people will flock to your business. Easy, right?

nonconformist

I think this just goes to show everything I was trying to point out in Haag's last article. Nursing and library science are far from "useless" degrees, yet, why can't these folks find a decent paying job in their respective fields? And like the one gentleman said, not everyone can turn around and go BACK to college to enter a different field. And why should we? It really is a sad, sad state of affairs. I hope things turn around sooner rather than later for everyone.

Nemesis

And, as I pointed out in that other thread, the law of supply and demand won't be denied. So now we finally get an idea of what you consider a marketable degree. Library Science has been a dying field for at least 15 years - CWRU actually closed their school of Library Science, considered the best in the nation - the content has been absorbed into more technical information science fields. As for nursing, there's nursing, and then there's nursing. One can get an RN license now with an Associates Degree, which won't stack up very well against someone with a BSN. Also, read the article - the person in question is lacking in experience and specialty certifications, i.e she lacks the credentials the market is seeking. Those who HAVE those credentials are in demand.

Even in high tech, demand changes. During a war, hot OR cold, aerospace engineers have it made, not so much when the world is at peace. Those who adapt, do well.

nonconformist

Nemesis, as I pointed out in the other thread, people keep pushing college education down our throats and take our hard earned money, yet so many people can't find work. So who's fault is that? Hmm, let's see... do we begin with the marketers who work for the colleges? Do we blame the colleges for feeding us all the BS? Who is going to take some responsibility here? You have millions of people trying to better their lives, trying to do the right thing, only to find out it's not. And sorry, if I put my way through school and had a masters of ANYTHING, nope I shouldn't be expected to go through all of that again. Come on man, let's at least be a little realistic.

Simple Enough II

Hmmm wish folks would do some research on their own instead of "riding the wave" for what to do, be it work, buying a house etc, or going to college on loans. If you don't have the skill sets or experiance that the labor market requires, who is to blame? And if you think you are under appreciated, under payed then go elsewhere, you do have that option.

Nemesis

Who's at fault? Simple - who made the choice? If you can't comprehend the law of supply and demand, and you lack the wherewithal to make a sound choice of major, maybe you don't belong in college. If college freshmen are generally too immature, ignorant and inexperienced to make such decisions on their own, why do we let them vote?

Simple Enough II

Because we say they are adults and we also can conscript them into the service and send them off to war, sue them in a court of law, hold them legally responsible for their actions and tax them. Where are the parents in all this trying to prepare little Johnnie or Suzie for life after leaving school. One thing that is not being noted is that many students are not prepared for college the can not pass the entry exams, that in itself is troubling.

KnuckleDragger

What the article doesn't say is that most of those in the $150K + level are professionals with advanced degrees. Which proves what has been said all along, education is the single most important thing to fighting unemployment and a low income. If you are without, or only have a high school diploma with no specialized training, you are going to be left behind. It seems odd that they just took the word of one nursing school graduate and went with it. It quick search will reveal thousands of nursing jobs in Texas alone. The problem is that many nurses hope to start out immediately in a high paying hospital job rather than get some experience elsewhere. If you are a nurse and can't find a job right now, there must be some other blemish on your employment history that you didn't tell the reporter.

From the Grave

The world needs ditch diggers too. Why shouldn't they get a decent wage? Maybe if they'd get a ditch digging masters degree...

KnuckleDragger

Of course we need ditch diggers, however what you are suggesting is that we pay someone that is a high school dropout a six figure income to do it. It ain't never gonna happen!!! If you aren't satisfied with your lot in life, guess what? You are the only one that can change it. People need to quit expecting everyone else to be responsible for their happiness.

From the Grave

Who ever said a ditch digger was a high school drop out? You assumed that, and you also assumed that digging a ditch properly and safely doesn't require a skill that is worth a decent wage, one that you can live on. You are displaying an incredible level of arrogance, which is the REAL problem here.

Centauri

Keep voting in the rich ruling class to office and get more of the same. The corporate owned news media picks the rich ruling class candidates for you while ignoring the best candidates for the people. Get a clue people!

KnuckleDragger

Tell that to the libby's who keep voting in uber-rich dems and then claiming that these people are there to help them. They keep throwing their constituents a few crumbs while they laugh all the way to the bank.

rottnrog

Or tell it to the repubs who want to keep lowering taxes on the rich and raise them on the rest of us !!!

KnuckleDragger

Let's see, I'm not rich but the last several times taxes were lowered, mine went down. If you mean that we should tell repubs to redistribute more income from the middle class and rich to the non-producers in society, uhhh I think not. The poor don't pay taxes, I don't want to see another penny of my money going to someone who refuses to work. Oh, and by the way, most of those so-called rich people probably paid more in taxes last year than you make.

LadyC

And many companies have you apply online, or through Snag A Job, etc. It seems like a lot of them have almost a continuously running application, all the time, to keep people applying and to have more leverage with their employees. They don't tell you hours, rates of pay, or anything. While we, the underemployed are shopping for jobs, they the greedy, are shopping for those who will work cheaper and replace the people they already have. Way too many games.

KnuckleDragger

I get where you are coming from, but if you have no income coming in, why would you picky about the hours you work? Get your foot in the door, prove yourself, and then negotiate with your employer for better hours. While some employers may not be very sympathetic, I have found that many are reasonable.

LadyC

Some of us have to supplement our incomes with second or third jobs. And many of us have seasonal employment, which tapers off. Job juggling is becoming a necessity, and many of us just don't have time for games. Yes, I will do this job for such and such an hour, on these days, no problem! But please stop with the bait and switch.

donutshopguy

I have noticed a trend in the fairly new graduated and new graduates. They expect to be given the leadership role without any experience. It's not how it works in pretty much any business or organization. A lot of kids won't take entry level jobs. It's beneath them. They want to make what their parents make now without putting in the 20 years of work.

The New World Czar

Those who are "A and B" employees will do fine in this job market. What it is doing is weeding out the "C" and below grade.

Simply put, you have to be worthy and appreciative of your employer hiring and keeping you on the payroll.

donutshopguy

phroggy,

If someone thinks they can do better than their employer than start your own company and prove it. No one is holding anyone back from doing better. It's the American way.

Make yourself rich through hard work and hand the money over to your employees. No one is stopping you from taking that path.

grandmasgirl

I think you should be paid according to your worth. However, if there were not the little "peon" workers, no one would be working. If there were not the auto manufacturing jobs, everyone would be walking, if there were not the farmers, no one would be eating. If there were not the doctors and nurses, a lot would be dying. Come on people, not everyone wants a job that needs a college degree. Some just want to go to work, come home and pay the bills. However, since the busting of most unions, employers have found out that they can pay the little man next to nothing while they get richer and richer.

LadyC

Absolutely true! And they would rather pay people to figure out how much they will save by doing this, than pay a little more to start with and have people who remain loyal to them or move up within the company. Whenever costs are cut, it is always from the ones doing the real work. Even college degrees are no guarantee anymore, no matter what kind they are. The are another debt to add to the pile of bills.

donutshopguy

grandmasgirl,

So what is your solution? A $15 dollar an hour minimum wage? Who will pay for that increase ? The end consumer?

Or, how about those who work hard and took the chance to build their own company just give the money away to employees? You do it first and see if anyone follows.

So what is wrong with trying to be richer? Some of us little men have sacrificed early in life to achieve the level we presently hold. Jealous? Lazy?

KnuckleDragger

They are already doing it. That is about what welfare pays out by the time you figure in all the freebies. There is no changing these idiots minds, their jealousy precludes rational thinking.

rottnrog

As billionaire Warren Buffet said "There is something wrong when I pay less in taxes than my secretary" !!

Nemesis

Except that when he said that, his lawyers were fighting to keep him from having to pay his taxes from the previous few years.

grandmasgirl

donutshopguy: I never said that I expected the owner to go bankrupt and live in a shack. Appearently you do not understand a "common" man's logic. I expect to be paid a decent wage for the work I do. Is it fair that the owner pays someone $11.00 an hour to make a product that the owner clears $100 on? I don't know how to get it through your head that if YOU (the employer) treats me (an employee) fair, I will go over and above your expectations of what a loyal employee is. Of course I expect you to reply with the same nonsense that you usually do.

Nemesis

Supply and demand, gg. If you're worth more than you're getting, PROVE it by finding someone willing to pay it. The owner pays as much as he has to in order to get what he needs. You do the same - if you see two gas stations, one charging $3.50/gal and one charging $4/gal, which one do you go to?

grandmasgirl

Boy, what is this? Gang up on grandma day? As to your question, believe it or not, I asked around and found out which station is locally owned. Thank goodness I was employed when pay was good and benefits were good. Now I can afford to try and support others locally. If I can buy it from a local resident I do. EVEN if it costs more. That is my way of giving back.

Nemesis

Because people who live outside your neighborhood are not also fellow human beings who have kids to feed? So nice to know you only support your little enclave and dismiss the outside world as being beyond the pale (look up the origin of that term.)

LadyC

I think a problem with some of these smaller businesses whose owners did work hard to build it, is that they expect the same dedication and sacrifice from the employees as they had to make, but on low wages, no chance for moving up, and "on call" type sporadic hours. They don't understand that we have lives, too, and may need to fit the job we do for them in with another one to make it. I don't have a burning need to be rich, I am not jealous of anyone, but if I am to be available all the time, multi-tasking, doing double duty, and making minimum wage, of course I'm going to go elsewhere. And as per supply and demand, no big deal to them, they will just keep getting newbies that don't care either. And people wonder what has happened to the work ethic in this country. And don't get me started on the big corporations.

Nemesis

LadyC, most of those owners made those same sacrifices when starting out, often not paying themselves at all.

LadyC

Nemesis, I get that, and I do hand it to those who have taken the risks and made the sacrifices to start businesses on their own. I have worked for the small family-owned businesses and taken the bitter with the sweet. I don't expect a full benefits package, etc. and neither do most people. However, the fact is, most of these places are not paying enough as a single job for us to get by, so we are in need of a second or third job. In order to do this, hours need to be coordinated. If someone is managing their business well, they can at least tell their employees when they are needed and for how long. And not threaten and fuss every time they pay them, or put out ads seeking new employees. Job seeking is a job in itself anymore, and a lot of us get our hopes up when we see a job appear, go through an application process, etc. only to find out they are not really hiring. And many of us simply don't have the capital to start something of our own.

Nemesis

"If someone is managing their business well, they can at least tell their employees when they are needed and for how long."

Sure, but that level of management isn't free. Why spend money on it if there are plenty of people willing to work for them under the current conditions? AGAIN - supply and demand.

"And not ... put out ads seeking new employees."

So now it's a crime to see if you can do better? What they are doing is no different from you looking in the Sunday paper to see which store has something you want on sale this week.

LadyC

Putting the ads out can't be free either. And the process of screening, HR, background checks, etc. Or a lot of them pay an employment agency to take care of that. I just wish they would be a bit more straightforward. We shop for jobs, they shop for employees, I get it. But it is a waste of time and money for both parties if they don't even identify themselves, describe the job honestly, or show a rate of pay or hours you must be available. If I already have one part time job and need a second one, that's all I need to know--what hours do you need me? Really, is that so hard to determine?

Nemesis

All those costs you mention clearly don't outweigh the benefits to the company of doing so - there's a simple metric for determining the wisdom of a business owner's decisions - is he still in business? is he making a profit? Well, then, he's making sound choices.

donutshopguy

grandmasgirl,

Not picking on you personally. Your socialistic view of the workplace rubs some of us who have become a success on our own without government intervention.

I was a common man. Working menial labor jobs. But through education, hard work and sacrifice I lifted myself above that lot in life. You can too.

Start your own company and pay your employees what ever you wish. No one is stopping you.

Sounds like a smart person who developed something that can clear $100 dollars after the sale. Would you accept your employees telling you how much you can make after you did all the hard work to develop the idea?

A person receives whatever value the employer deems acceptable for the work performed. If you don't like the pay, move on. No one is forcing you to stay at that job. It's your job to improve your lot in life through education or experience which improves your value and compensation.

It takes hard work and sacrifice. Most people aren't will to do both and take a chance.

grumpy

grandmasgirl,

If it is a knicknack and you clear $100 you did real good (but no one will pay that much for a knicknack), if it is a car or airplane or some such it isn't good, depends on the scope of you product. Even percentages don't work when it comes to profit. Cars may be sold for 10% profit where small knicknacks may require 25% profit. It just depends on all the various things involved.

LadyC

Maybe Grandmasgirl doesn't want to start her own company. A lot of us don't. It doesn't mean we are lazy, stupid, jealous, uneducated, or any other insult you care to toss. Some of us actually like working, and don't mind the grunt jobs IF there is anything good about them at all. There are trade-offs. IF the bills are being paid by this job, but it's dirty, boring, long hours, etc. OK, cool, I'll do it. If it's low-paying but reasonably pleasant and I am treated nicely, OK, fine, I'll do it, and supplement my income with another gig. Trouble is, there are few trade-offs left. They seem to want it all and pay nothing for it. Pretty soon a lot of us will be too broke to buy their products or use their services anyway. Big mess. And by the way, many don't place "value" on employees at all. They only worry about how much they will cost.

grandmasgirl

LadyC: Thank you for understanding what I am saying. I never did want to own my own business. My pleasure came from doing a good job. I took pride in that. When the place of business that I worked for closed (making $9.00 an hour in the 80's) I went to work for another employer making $3.50 an hour. I worked every bit as hard if not harder at the lower wage. I quit when I went to my employer with a complaint about a customer who keep making off color remarks to me. He laughed and said I should be flattered. That's what I mean about mutual respect. It isn't always the lower paid person who has the less intelligence.

LadyC

Sad but very true...

Nemesis

"I never did want to own my own business."

No, you just want to second-guess the decisions of those who do.

So, you're willing to dictate how they should run their business, but not to walk so much as a single step in their shoes first.

arnmcrmn

Have to love those who have no business experience, nor the mindset to run one, nor have the burden of taking work home with them and managing their business.....yet want to tell their employer what they should pay people.

Taxes, inspections, bills, wages, upkeep, maintenance, workers comp, overhead......THIS IS WHY YOU MAKE WHAT YOU MAKE.

Simple solution to the whiners, if you do not like what you make, change jobs, go back to school, quit....who cares, just don't tell people like me how to run my business.

nonconformist

Very well aware of what it takes to run a business. I am also aware of the needless spending by owners on other aspects. Of which, could be spent better on making employees happy. We're not all ignorant. Get a grip. So you go ahead and complain about everything you signed up for; including high turnaround and time spent training new employees. Seems cost effective to me!

Nemesis

They've either successfully accounted for turnover and training costs, or they are out of business. You can bloviate all you want, but you can't legitimately argue that the owner of a business is making bad business decisions if the business is thriving.

Supply and demand, will not be denied, any more than gravity.

LadyC

Grndmasgirl and I both said that we LIKED working. No one is trying to dictate anything on our end, but you seem to be one of those people who does not value feedback of any kind from anyone, because you have all the answers, because you are a business owner. Good for you. And how do you know where our shoes have taken us? Some people can be excellent at numbers, but piss-poor when it comes to human relations. Enjoy this ride while it lasts, because it may not last for long.

deertracker

@LadyC
Agreed!

Nemesis

"Maybe Grandmasgirl doesn't want to start her own company. A lot of us don't."

Fine, but then quit whining about the consequences of that choice.

donutshopguy

LadyC,

Cost is a measurement of value by the way.

If the general public is to broke to buy product or services than those products and services will go under. It's the evolution of the capitalistic marketplace. If the general public cannot pay taxes anymore than the government as you know it will not exist. That's been going on since the beginning of time.

If you want a socialist society lets look at the whole world first. People on welfare and government entitlement make more money and have more free services than 95% of the world population. Are the American welfare recipients willing to share their spoils with the rest of the world? Are you willing to give up your meaningless pay to support the rest of the world?

Now, when you want the rich to share with you, are you willing first to share with the rest of the world? Just a thought.

Love these philosophical discussions.

nonconformist

I have to agree with just about everything LadyC has said. It's not about the rich "sharing" anything. It's about paying dedicated employees what they are worth. These days, it appears employers have the mindset that everyone is dispensable; lose one good employee because they don't pay well? Ah well, another one right around the corner willing to do the work (may not be as good) for maybe even less. Seriously, that is how most employers think. There is no more rewarding good workers for their hard work, loyalty, or time. It's BS and you and everyone else knows it. I don't want my own business and I don't want to get paid like I do. I do want to be paid what I'm worth as do most people. It's pretty sad that people in manufacturing (no education required) jobs in this area get paid more than I do, have benefits, and vacation. I can't even pay my student loan. By the way, my schooling totally relates to my current job. You want to tell all of us there is nothing wrong with that picture? Unfortunately, this area sucks for my field. So no, it's not that easy to just "move on."

donutshopguy

nonconformist,

"this area sucks for my field." Are there better opportunities somewhere else? What is holding you back from "moving on" to those areas?

A good employer rewards "good workers" for hard work and loyalty. The owner has to make those decisions every day. What is the value of a "good worker" ? Can I live without them? Can I afford to keep them? What will it cost to replace them?

It's not a simple decision in some cases. In other cases, some employees are dispensable.

nonconformist

Did you really just ask me that question? I can barley afford to pay my student loan so you tell me what is holding me back from moving on. Wow. Watch the bouncing ball . * . *...

donutshopguy

nonconformist,

Get a backbone and grow up.

How long must we hold your hand.

nonconformist

Hold my hand? LOL! I assure you no one has held my hand since my mother, once I learned to walk. Get OVER yourself. Yet another problem with certain frames of mind. Just can't stand the fact when someone points out the obvious things that you've missed? You're mouth is as big as your head. Stick a 'donut' in it.

arnmcrmn

Sounds like you picked a cupcake degree and now have a hard time finding a good job. I always tell college students, pick a degree that gives you the flexibility to move, that allows you to not work your soul to the bone and that is known to have a solid starting pay base.

Most do not listen. They think their fashion design degree is really going to pan out. They think that dime a dozen business degree is going to reward them with riches right out of the gate. It doesn't 99% of the time.

nonconformist

Ok, since everyone keeps asking... My education is in the legal field, far from "cupcake" as you say. A cupcake degree is a BA in Liberal Studies ie. I really have NO direction what-so-ever and just thought I'd wing it since my parents are paying for it! Fashion? Not a bad degree if you're willing to move to NY or Europe. These days, my friend, every degree out there is a dime a dozen; doesn't matter what your major is.

Nemesis

Majoring in a "legal field" (again, very vague) is a waste of time if you don't have the chops to get a JD.

nonconformist

Spoken like a true pompous d*uche bag.

nonconformist

And, news flash, there are just as many "bad employers" as there are "bad employees" these days.

Nemesis

Then go work for the good ones.

arnmcrmn

quit complaining noncomformist. If you don't like your choices, its up to you to change your life. No me or anyone else.

nonconformist

No one is asking you to. I'm on here, free as everyone else, to state my opinion. Don't like it? P*ss off.

grumpy

"It's not about the rich "sharing" anything. It's about paying dedicated employees what they are worth."

Who is the one who decides what a particular worker is worth? The supervisor? The owner? The worker?

I had a sports car I poured money and time into so I could run Time Trials when I was younger. When I sold it I had nearly $30,000 just in parts I added to the car, on top of what I bought the car for (21,000), and what I paid tuners to tune the computers that control the engine. It was in great condition when I sold it. I got $24,000 for it with what spare parts I had. To me it was worth near $40,000. The people who would buy it didn't agree. In the end it was worth what someone was willing to pay. I "might" have gotten more if I parted it out, but not enough to do it, it is much more fun to build it than to strip it, package it, send the parts out, and hope everything goes well.

Same with workers. I worked for many companies in a union construction trade. I was paid over scale because I negotiated a bonus before I started working for them. They did that because they thought I was worth the bonus. They could have gotten someone else out of the union hall if they wanted, there usually were guys they passed over to hire me and knew what I could do, they were willing pay more for me. I kept up with the "state of the art" in what I did, kept my certificates current, did continuing education in the Winter to keep up with new innovations, and went beyond just keeping up. A worker is "worth" what an employer is willing to pay them for the work they will be doing.

deertracker

Tell us all about your business sprinkles! If you value your employees the cost to maintain a good staff will be lower by the way. Everyone does not or can't own their business. That in no way makes them inferior to those that can or do. Say what you want but any business that has any chance at all of survival needs good employees and good management. Your statement about people on welfare is complete BS and you know it. If what you say is true those same well paid people on welfare and receiving gov't assistance support your business. Do you take their money?

donutshopguy

deer,

"Everyone does not or can't own their business." So they shouldn't expect the same compensation, correct?

Are we back on that mystic "living wage" kick? Don't see a lot of Americans dying from a low wage. So are the wages "living" ?

You don't travel much out of Erie County. The poor in this country are 100 times more well off than the world. You really need to see how the rest of the world lives. You would be ashamed of your "living wage" whining.

deertracker

They should expect to be paid a fair wage. What is so wrong with that? You act as though the only people benefiting are the employees. You can't really believe that. YOU need to see how the rest of the world lives. Are you ashamed of your wages? Try answering my question!

nonconformist

Agreed! Happier employees equals less sick time, more efficiency, better customer service, shall I go on?

arnmcrmn

not true at all nonconformist. you simply have no clue.

donutshopguy

deer,

What is you impression of a fair wage? Who decides what is fair?

I'm not ashamed of the money I've made over my lifetime. I'm not ashamed of the menial jobs I worked to reach this point. I'm not ashamed of receiving no pay , while my employees were paid in the early years to build my company. I'm not ashamed of the pay and benefits I paid my workers today. I'm not ashamed that some employees left me to further their careers. I'm not ashamed of the employees I let go who didn't believe they had to work.

Did I answer your questions.

deertracker

No, as usual. You know which question I was referring to. Nice try wrong guy! Don't whine about not getting paid. I am sure you eventually got paid and it's the cost of doing business!

LadyC

Nowhere did I mention a socialistic society or did I become an advocate of government entitlement. I am not asking the rich to "share their spoils" or pay my way through life. By the way, I receive no assistance (yet) and own my home. I am not just starting out and wanting it all. I am, however, tired of the attitudes toward the working class, and tired of people's condescending attitudes towards paying for someone's time, energy, and labor. If you hire a plumber, you pay him. If you hire an electrician, you pay him. Or you do it yourself. Many places will charge an arm and a leg for a product and the employees will be the ones on the front line, listening to the complaints, taking the blame if a customer isn't happy, and working the Black Fridays, Sundays, and holidays. And they aren't getting any more for it. And at least half the food stamp recipients are in the category of "working poor." These minimum-paying places are being supplemented in a sense, by the government making up for the living wage THEY will not pay. There is just as much waste going on in the upper levels of a corporation, too. Vacations disguised as conventions, company car, plane, etc. I don't have any animosity towards the rich, as long as they aren't stepping on me and mine to get there.

donutshopguy

Deer,

Thanks for the name "Sprinkles". I try to sprinkle my wisdom with high school kids in the area. Excuses such as race, upbringing and entitlement are not excepted. Personal responsibility, hard work, education and sacrifice are commended.

Not all believe in my philosophy. But, I do reach some that haven't been dealt the same set of cards. It is very uplifting when a young woman or man will not be held down by excuses.

It keeps me continuing my ideals of personal responsibility.

What are you doing to make the world a better place?

The Big Dog's back

Why don't you right wing business owners share the name of your companies? Are you afraid people won't buy your products once they find out how you really think? If you are so sure you're right share the name.

donutshopguy

Dog,

I'll share the name of my company. Are you willing to share with us your name?

arnmcrmn

big dogs company......= US TAX PAYER in the form of welfare.

deertracker

Good question Dog! They don't want their employees to know that the boss does not think they are worth the paper their paychecks are printed on. That's assuming they don't pay under the table yet still deduct taxes like that Greek guy does!

The Big Dog's back

Exactly.

nonconformist

Cha-Ching! Pun intended.

KURTje

"Only the little people pay taxes." Leona Helmsly. Much truth in her statement.

Nemesis

And where did she end up? Oh yeah, in prison for not paying her taxes. Hmmmmmm

arnmcrmn

Funny kurt because the top 10% of earners pay 95% of the federal tax dollars collected each and every year. Facts...try them out for once.

KURTje

Facts..pay those subsidies (muck) & Jerry Stackhouse. He sure stunk up Willard with Metro. Now go play ball.

arnmcrmn

Stackhouse was one of Huron County's biggest tax payers. I wont comment on the metro part. Again facts.

KURTje

Thank You! That piece of work garnered MUCH of OUR tax $$. Another alien that came to my area & not honoring our customs. Glad he is doing time. He should have paid; it was our money. We both know which party he loved & voted for. Ddrrrrrrrr

donutshopguy

Dog & Deer,

So based on your comments you are against me helping young people improve themselves. I "sprinkle" personal responsibility and further education as a means to a better life. I show them local real life examples of success stories.

What are you both doing to improve the next generations? Preaching success is bad and the government will take care of you?

God help us.