Cliff Cannon says

 Karl Marx noted 'capital follows the cheapest labor' has that 'marxism' ever been more evident than now? So one must ask given that our federal government has shoved 'Nafta'  down our throats or worse 'free trade' with China all the while emptying American factory's, do elected 'leaders' in Washington D.C. hate the American people? If so,is this Cooper fiasco just another example of the class warfare that hatred promises to impose? Just asking

sanduskysteve says

@ minuteman - still you and a few others attempting to make people believe that walmart only sells chineese goods.  I'm still and have been for over two years, trying to find something walmart sells that other retailers don't sell - other than the walmart private brand.  As for tires, Walmart sells goodyear and other brands which are sold at most other tire stores.  Not sure why the chineese comments continue to be brought into these kinds of posts when it, for the most part is not true.  Including their electronic items and food items as well.

origen says

@illuminoctis

 He does have a point in a way, Drowning victims will drown thier saviors in a effort to get to the air.

illuminoctis says

6079 smith w. says....

""Blaming the ills of society and the economy with use of the overly simplistic word "greed" demonstrates ignorance. If it weren't for "greed," the human race would have been extinct ages ago. Aren't most people "greedy" for their next breath of air?""

^ is this guy serious or trolling us? i cannot tell.

because if this is serious, i challenge you to elaborate.

elaborate verb (used with object) 4. to add details to; expand.

mhsdad says

Minuteman-

Refusing to buy foreign tires is not going to solve the problem. You have to take all the aspects of a tire in consideration.  Ride Quality, Noise, Tire Quality, Tire Warranty, Etc.

For example if you go to http://www.discounttire.com and look up 205/60R16 and compare 80,000 mile tires.

Cooper CS4 Touring 138.00 plus installation

www.tirerack.com

least expensive tire

Yokoham Avid TRZ 97.59 plus installation.

I just grabbed those 2 tires for comparision, both include road hazard coverage (as it is included on the discount tire web site).

A better tire is the Bridgestone Turanza Serenity 111.50 plus install (includes road hazard) this is only a 70k tire but it rides much better and is quieter than the Cooper.  I can say that because I have the Coopers on my car ( got a great deal paid $75 bucks each brand new.) and the Bridgestone's on my moms car.  Both are Chrysler Sebrings.  When I have to replace the tires on my car I will not be going with Coopers again.  I perfer to drive my truck with All Terrain tires because of the tire noise and ride.

So why should I pay more for a tire that does not perform as well as a less expensive tire.

BTW I have extensive tire knowledge because I sell them for a living.

kURTje says

Have any actual workers been interviewed on this matter?   It would be very interesting to hear from all sides on this.       Based on past experiences, I've wittnessed 1rst hand words &/or stats skewed & twisted to fit agendas - not truth.     Folks sadly most people only care about self & not the big picture.  Hope both sides get their stuff together & solve this problem.

wiredmama222 says

Here we go again, management VS unions. 

mikel says

big dog - got flea's?  never said the companies word was gospel.  once again, realllll slowwwww, whyyy wouldn'ttttt theeeee unionnnnn reppppp replyyyy toooo theeee president'sssss letterrrrr?  slow enough for you?

until we hear the union's side we must assume that the companies offer was valid.

origen says

@Hmm

I agree, Unfortunatly most do not know how or prefer not to prepare for the worst and are left with nothing, No backup plan or anything and then fall back to asking for the government to come in and bail them out which always ends badly.

Hmm says

I know all about 401k's.  I've been contributing for years.  Sure it goes up and down, but as you age you move it to more conservative investments.  When you get a raise, you use part of it to increase your contribution.  Its all about planning.

origen says

@Hmm

 It gets the accountability away from the corperations themselves, But still places the liabilitys in a wounded market. These corperations are already bankrupt when taking into account the unfunded liabilitys it has and with the retirements going to 401k it only shifts the responsibilitys back to the worker even though most 401k's are now going under because of over leveraging on the markets themselves. Either way the workers are going to get screwed because the american standard of living is too high for a global market especially after retirement. (hence the reason people are working till death instead of relying on the government and markets)

The Big Dog's back says

 mikel, so when a company representative says something it's Gospel, but when a union person or reporter says something it's a lie? Toady.

Hmm says

Gee maybe that's why they're trying to switch them to a 401K with a company match. 

origen says

What most of these writeups and people forget is the gorilla in the room, Unfunded liabilitys (I.E retirement programs who lost trillions) and this is the reason why you will see contracts being renegotiated with hardball tactics, The present system of hiding the facts they are losing money every year compared to the retirement cost is slowly eroding so that the illusion of prosperity is now being shown as a faulse front for bankrupt corperations.

mikel says

from todays courier:

so, after reading the info below i am wondering 2 things: 1) why does the union say that employees wages would be cut by 40% and 2) why didn't the union prez reply to this?  although this does not state what the "modest" increase of contribution to health care is the numbers don't look to bad.

Chris Ostrander, president of North America Tire Operations for Cooper:

• Would "preserve the current earnings opportunities for 85 percent of the unionized work force. The other 15 percent would actually improve their earnings ability, which had been originally capped in the 2008 contract." Rumors of 40 percent pay cuts are false, he said.

• Would maintain the pension plan for employees hired before Jan. 1, 2009. Employees hired later could contribute to a 401(k) retirement plan that included a company match.

• Offered all employees a $2,500 signing bonus to ratify the agreement by Nov. 27.

• Offered annual payments of $1,000 to each union worker in both 2013 and 2014.

• Proposed a pay increase for skilled trades workers of $4 per hour.

• Proposed a pay increase for many multi-skilled classifications of $1 per hour.

• Sought "modest" increases in contributions for the health care plan, and a cap on increases in medical premiums. The size of the contribution increases was not specified.

In return, Cooper said it wanted productivity improvements. These would include a four-week cap on vacation time for new hires, and a change in the pay for some job classifications.

Cooper also wanted to re-evaluate all jobs in the plant and "set new, more accurate standards with minimum expectations for all jobs to capture improved efficiencies and production rates."
 

The goal is to put employees back to work, United Steelworkers Local 207L President Rod Nelson said.

Nelson did not comment Tuesday night on the company statement.

 

Hmm says

I think when SB5 went down in flames, unions became a bit too emboldened.

mikel says

i am not siding with the company on this.  i just don't understand why, if given the opportunity to continue working under the current contract for up to a year why not?  that should have then given them plenty of time to work out a new contract.

hopefully, this will be resolved quickly especially with the holidays around the corner.

Minuteman says

We need to refuse to buy foreign tires. That has a very small chance of happening, look at the crowds at Walmart, knowing they are buying chinese goods. "They got theirs!"

The American tire companies can't compete, and can't keep up with high standards and good pay and survive. High standards are the only way they sell tires that cost more than foreign tires. Cuts must be made in pay or quality to stay afloat. Cuts in quality result in poor products and loss of business. It's gonna have to be a cut in pay, or educate people on why  to buy American products. 

A cut in pay is the only way. Even then, it is a race against the clock before foreign products are even cheaper, unless we raise the tariffs, making them more expensive.

I say "Raise the tariffs to give us the edge!"

Edwin Ison says

 "Aren't most people "greedy" for their next breath of air?"

Smith W  confuses "greed" with "NEED"..  

WOW!  And he the resident expert.

wetsu says

mikel-

An all too common situation nowadays, eh?

As one of the comments stated, this is a very tenuous game of chicken that is being played in Findlay.  There have been occasions when both Cooper and Marathon have hinted at moving operations out of Findlay, at which time the city wisely came up with ways of keeping the two giants in town.  From my vantage point if Findlay were to lose Cooper it would be a near-fatal blow, should it lose both Cooper and Marathon the city would soon make Sandusky look like a garden spot.  Findlay would fade so quickly Fosta Rica (Fostoria) would make jokes about it.

How far do you go?  Findlay residents pay high water rates so that Cooper can pay $0.  In my view it's only a matter of time before they bend the city over once and for all and take a hike.

mikel says

after reading the articles in the courier it is still unclear to me as why the union wouldn't extend their current contract for year while they try to work out a new one.

it is sad that the hourly workers are the ones paying the price NOT the company exec's nor the union exec's.

wetsu says

@6079-

No problem, I figured you would take the time if nobody else would.  You are absolutely correct, the comments are very intriguing and I should have stated that in my last post.

There are lessons to be gleaned, folks.  There is an interesting mix of skilled and unskilled labor in Findlay, and for the most part it is an educated populace. 

mikel-

In October the union offered to work under an extension of the current contract to which Cooper replied that it was not interested in extending beyond the deadline, when faced with a publicity nightmare the company later made overtures toward an extension.

6079 Smith W says

@ wetsu:

Thanks. The comments in the articles made for interesting reading.

http://www.thecourier.com/Issues/2011/Nov/29/ar_news_112911_story2.asp?d=112911_story2,2011,Nov,29&c=n

http://www.thecourier.com/Issues/2011/Nov/29/ar_news_112911_story1.asp?d=112911_story1,2011,Nov,29&c=n

origen says

Rut Roh, I wonder if the workers are going to get any help from the union or has all the money done been donated to a election campaign?

wetsu says

Check the Findlay Courier online, they have plenty of info. 

mikel says

maybe the union honcho could tell us why a 1 year extension was unacceptable.

gilamonster says

The Big Dog's back says

 So bash unions all you want , but if someone says something about lazy, stupid management, OMG!

gilamonster says

6079 Smith W says

@ coasterfan:

Mr. Galbraith reads like a fine example of a RINO.

Here's your link: http://www.toledoblade.com/Letters-to-the-Editor/2011/11/29/Insurance-rule-won-t-cut-costs-2.html

Yea, that millionaire Mr. Obama has only raised $88 million (and counting) in campaign cash because he cares sooooo much for the little folks. LOL.

The rich Dems are peeing all over you and telling you that it's raining. Enjoy the shower.

coasterfan says

As to the topic of greed, most Democrats believe that it is the driving force behind most of the Republican antics. And apparently, some Republicans would agree. Below is a word-for-word Letter to the Editor from today's edition of a large Ohio newspaper. It was written by John Galbraith, a former REPUBLICAN Ohio state representative:

"There is trouble ahead for our country when the upper 1% of the population has a great concentration of the wealth, and when, according to the Census Bureau, one in three Americans is in poverty or just above it. All these inequities are growing, putting a squeeze on our middle class and helped by Republican tax policies".

Hmm says

Kimo I don't think you can say with a straight face that he was saying those in management that are not doing their jobs need to sacrifice, while those in management who are doing their jobs do not need to sacrifice.  He is clearing implying (as many do) that management does not work.  And I agree with you: Wages overseas now impact, and even dictate wages here in the US.

Kimo says

You can read anything into this you want but the bottom line:

The Chinese and Korean tire companies are now in control of the wages that will be paid in Findlay Ohio.

Kimo says

Re: he thinks management doesn't work. 

What I read: “What have the non-working people in management done?”

If you think about that comment, it could mean anywhere from 1% to 99.9% of management.

I don’t see the word “all” in that comment.

It’s been my experience that the most ignorant people in the world are those that think they have all the answers.

As far as the union at Cooper, it would appear at this point in time that they overplayed their hand.

But the bottom line is that the ball is still rolling downhill, and that is not a good thing.

The Big Dog's back says

 goof, are you talking about robber barons like DuPont, Ford, Rockefeller who tried to overthrow the Gov back in the 30's?

goofus says

Corporate Greed? What did we go back in time to the 1890's or what. History repeats itself especially in a depression. Do yourself a favor and google robber barons, it repeats the same thing going on today. Here's a very interesting piece about robber barons and greed, please take time to read and enlighten your mind.

http://mises.org/daily/2317

Hmm says

Smith I AGREE.  I'm pointing out that because of the innate greed, the conflicts are inevitable.  Socialism certainly isn't the answer because of greed.  I am not altruistic about it, I'm simply pointing out that the greed goes both ways.  I have no solutions...I wish I did. 

6079 Smith W says

@ Hmm:

I like a phrase from economic-historian Niall Ferguson:

History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes.

Human nature will always be human nature. There was never a time in our race's history where we weren't "greedy" for something.

And, to think that somehow in some miraculous future that we will all be altruistic and share what we have personally acquired equitably is IMO nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_Ferguson

That's why socialism is such a crock; it's never existed and it never will. The only way that socialism will work is through the use of force.

Guess I'm just "greedy" for individualism and freedom. LOL.

Hmm says

Smith you are right:  Its human nature, and if anyone says they aren't greedy they aren't being honest.  We are born extremely greedy - our survival depends on it.  Then hopefully we learn that the world doesn't revolve around us and become less self centered, but the greed is still there.  So these conflicts are inevitable.  I'm not offering any solutions, but when I hear one side accuse the other side of being greedy...they aren't dealing with reality.   Its rediculous to think that management is greedy and unions are not, or that unions are greedy and management is not.

6079 Smith W says

Blaming the ills of society and the economy with use of the overly simplistic word "greed" demonstrates ignorance.

If it weren't for "greed," the human race would have been extinct ages ago. 

Aren't most people "greedy" for their next breath of air?

Who exactly gets to decide when someone's income is too large; govt. bureaucrats?

BTW: American Airlines filed for bankruptcy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-29/amr-files-for-bankruptcy-protection-in-new-york-as-talks-with-pilots-end.html

Probably "greedy" management's fault. LOL.

Hmm says

Edwin how can you comment about the greed of management without commenting on the greed of unions?  You are 100% correct - greed is the problem, but it exists on both sides.

6079 Smith W says

H*ll! Let's raise all the workers wages to $50/hr., give 'em all free health care and a generous retirement pension at 2 times their last yr's. salary with a cost of living adjustment.

Gotta wonder how many of those $400 per tire ol' Cooper will sell before they go bankrupt?

Close it up and pack it off to a RTW state.

Edwin Ison says

 Only about 10% of all US workers are Unionized.... yet the Republicans are hanging thier hats on union busting to cure all ills.

Why have all the non-unions jobs that moved over seas, gone over seas?

Corporate greed, and to a lesser extent, consumer greed.

Greed.

kURTje says

Yeah....&  look above this article: something about a pizza guy robbed here & "we wonder why."      Go ahead & keep taking whether it be Union or from other working places.           Lower wages translate into more crime, along with other negatives.   This city is broke right?   (Course that's the Union's fault)          Craig Jelinek Chief Operating Officer gets 2.3 million for being at COSTCO:  source Seattle Times.    Yeah godda love those kinds of perversions.     Gila you got the attitude of MacArthur......no wonder Chesty Puller disliked that coward.

gilamonster says

Kimo says

Re: I don't how else to interpret that except that he thinks management doesn't work. 

Try it one more time, third time may be charm.....

The New World Czar says

There are many who would covet having the opportunity at one of those jobs. It's obvious enough that if workers in Texarkana (not traditionally strong union country) would take a pre-negotiation vote, then what would anyone expect in union-friendlier Ohio? Smart move on company management.

Taxpayer, you're overdue...are you out there?

Hmm says

Oh I got it - he said "What has (sic) the non working people in management done?"  I don't how else to interpret that except that he thinks management doesn't work. 

kURTje says

Ok combat         /             support  similar but different.                    Professional /  non-professional.           (The oldest profession)                                            You'll get it dummy.

Kimo says

Re:non working management

Not what he said

Kurt, type slower, these wingnuts can't read too fast............

: -))))))