33°BLOG: Why I support the 'mosque,' and why it matters
Sep 01
2010
The controversy over the "Ground Zero mosque" has become a clarifying moment in recent political history, when we get to find out whether conservatives and Republicans care about anything except winning the next election. If you've paid attention, the short answer is that many of them don't.
We found out only a few months ago that many Democrats and liberals don't really care about the First Amendment if that pesky "freedom of expression" stuff might arguably give Republicans an advantage. Now we're finding that while Republicans love to give lip service to "liberty," many of them don't care about freedom of religion or private property rights.
More on that in a moment, but first a few words on the controversy.
You'll notice that I put square quotes around the words "Ground Zero mosque" in my first paragraph.
That's because it's not at Ground Zero, e.g., the site of the terrorist attack on Sept. 11, 2001. It's two blocks away.
And it's not a mosque, either. The proposed project is an Islamic community center, similar to a YMCA. It would include a prayer room — a "mosque," if you will — but it's also supposed to have basketball hoops.
These facts are important, because if you took the rhetoric of the opponents at face value, you'd believe that a huge mosque, complete with minarets, is going to be built over the ruins of the World Trade Center.
The whole controversy is a manufactured one. And if someone wanted to build a mosque, so what? In this country, we don't tell people they aren't allowed to build a church, or a synagogue, or a temple, on their own property, if they are following the relevant building codes and zoning laws.
What I think is most interesting about the controversy is what is says about Republicans.
But first, let's beat up on Democrats a little.
On Jan. 21 this year, the U.S. Supreme Court voted to uphold the First Amendment in a case called Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. Specifically, the court voted 5-4 to strike down a provision of the law that blocked a nonprofit corporation, Citizens United, from airing a film that criticized Hillary Clinton.
For me, the scandal of the decision was that only a bare majority of the nation's highest court could bring themselves to strike down political censorship.
But that's not how many Democrats saw it. Many have campaigned for new laws to overturn the decision, on the ground that removing restrictions on corporate political spending might aid Republicans. Almost alone among prominent liberal commentators, Glenn Greenwald put principle over partisan political advantage and explained that the decision was correct.
But now Republicans are in the spotlight. And we are now seeing the spectacle of prominent Republican politicians who favor freedom of religion (if it's for Southern Baptists, in Georgia) and property rights (in cases where it's politically convenient).
Opinion polls show that many Americans oppose the so-called Ground Zero mosque. If a line of political attack is poll-tested, that's apparently all that matters.
So we have Newt Gingrich declaring that Cordoba House can't be built "so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia." There's no word yet on whether Gingrich favors banning the Nation magazine until North Korean newspapers agree to run his op-ed pieces.
And we have the Wall Street Journal's James Taranto, who anchors his argument about Democratic tax policies by referring to his opponent as a "Ground Zero mosque champion." Why resort to reasoned argument when a smear will do?
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12:54 PM
Cross says
The Taliban was formed in 1989, after the soviet troops withdrawal.
12:45 PM
kURT says
Hugo Back & the KKK. He was an assoicate supreme court justice for a long time.
What does this have 2do with this topic? Plenty. In the 20's Hugo was affiliated with the KKK along with many US citizens. The KKK promoted fear against Catholics, Jews, & immigrants as well as hatred against blacks.
This topic is similar.
All of M are dirty - some more so than others.
11:42 AM
stormy says
Again, I'm not a right-winger. I just look like one to someone as far to the left as you.
I drew the line; you're the one who won't step over it. I even gave you an option that wouldn't require you to publicly identify yourself on here, and you wouldn't exercise it. You're the coward. To borrow a phrase from BS, you are nothing, nada, zilch.
Go change your panties; you just peed in them. I'm through with you, and with this thread.
Oh, wait a minute. I don't want to end this off-topic. I support the right of law-abiding American Muslims to build a community center, which happens to include prayer facilities, a couple of blocks from the WTC site. Freedom of religion, and the right to use and enjoy one's own private property, clearly trump issues of sensitivity. No disrespect for the victims of 9-11 is intended; it's just what I believe.
OK, that's it. I'm outa here.
10:49 AM
Chung Lee says
If you so brave why don't you do that? Are you a coward? If it is such a good idea why won't you do as you say others should do? Or is that part of being a mindless right winger. Chung Lee pretty sure you will not be doing much clobbering Nancy. Come on tough guy put your ideas to work.
10:37 AM
stormy says
Nice misquote, chunk-punk!!! The part in parentheses is not Reagan, but YOU. Reagan was talking about the Mujahedin, ONE faction of which LATER became the Taliban. You are not fooling anyone.
BS, what's with "you guys?" To this day, I don't hate Obama. There were things about him that I liked, and I was willing to cut him some slack at first. Yes, he inherited a mess. Yes, his immediate predecessor was a clusterf*c*. I'm not on here defending Bush-lite, and you know it. Our gov't was out of balance for most of his time in office. It's out of balance NOW, in the other direction; but of course, that is about to be corrected. It must be killing you, knowing you can't stop it.
Chunk, as far as identifying myself; you first, coward. I made the first challenge; it's up to you to pick up the gauntlet. Of course, you never will, so here's another idea. Name a public place, a time, and what you'll be wearing; be sure to mention something distinctive about your appearance or attire, so I won't clobber the wrong person. I'll do likewise, and we can settle this man to phony chinese weasel.
10:01 AM
Chung Lee says
The Taliban didn't exist when Reagan was President? Well, then why did he say
"These gentlemen (the Taliban) are the moral equivalents of America's founding fathers." Ronald Reagan, 1985
Looks like the facts once again get in the the way. No problem..... just keep repeating the lies.
09:59 AM
brutus smith says
stormy, you make my point. You didn't care then so why do you care now? If Obama sneezes you guys say he didn't sneeze right.
09:47 AM
Chung Lee says
How about you identify yourself "stormy" and Chung Lee will come find you? Chung Lee will tell you now that Chung Lee is not a Log Cabin Conservative and no Larry Craig meetings!
09:41 AM
stormy says
MORE revisionist krap from the lunatic left. The Taliban did not exist when Reagan was Prez.
BS, the American people don't care about Iran-Contra. They didn't care about it then, and they sure as he11 don't care about it now. By all means, keep smearing Reagan; you're only alienating any moderates who happen to read your drivel.
Chunk, you two-bit Charley Chan knockoff, I dare you; identify yourself. I'll be happy to meet you. Then you can have the fun of insulting my manhood to my face, and I can have the pleasure of knocking you right out of your shoes.
Again, everyone, you'll notice that the lefties never give Chunk any grief for his pidgin english or his cheesy insults. If he were a conservative, they'd be on him like soy sauce on fried rice, but because he's one of them, he gets a pass.
12:53 AM
goofus says
I love it when Brutus and Chung Lee reinforce my opinion that Islamists can't be trusted. Accusing Reagan of not doing enough in retaliation to an Islamic bombing of a Marine baracks. The french conducted an airstrike in the Bekaa valley targeting the Islamic Revolutionary Guards baracks of Sheikh Abullah after the bombing. Reagan was prepared to launch an airstrike also, but through lobbying efforts of Secretary of Defense Casper Weinberger, who was against sending the Marines into Lebanon as a peace keeping force in the Lebanese Civil War from the onset, decided against it. On Feb.8 1984 the U.S.S New Jersey fired 300 shells at Druze and Syrian positions in the Bekaa valley. The man responsible was secretly indicted but was killed in a car bombing. Reagan,Carter(black hawk down),Clinton(khobar towers and USS cole) have all underestimated the Islamic threat.
11:02 PM
Chung Lee says
I think she is talking about the revisionist Reagan they the right is trying to create.
10:59 PM
brutus smith says
Is stormy talking about that Reagan guy who cut and ran from Lebanon after our Marine barracks were blown up? Or that Reagan guy who negotiated with terrorists (Iran) ? Or the Reagan who called the Taliban freedom fighters?
08:53 PM
Chung Lee says
Can we all agree that a German citizen or company can buy a building next to the Holocaust Museum?
08:47 PM
R U Kidding me says
well you you agree with it then the germans can hang there flag on a building next to the holocaust museum.
08:21 PM
Salvatore says
Barney Frank, Chunk Lee's hero. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjF4YjvJLe4&feature=related
05:00 PM
stormy says
Chunk, maybe you'd like to include some identifying info the next time you question my manhood. You really do deserve the whispering coward award.
Maybe all of the lefties on here should share the award with you; they never take you to task for impersonating a cooley! If I wrote in a mush-mouthed Steppin Fetchit accent, your buddies would be all over me, but because you're one of them, you can be as politically incorrect as you want.
And Reagan didn't create the Taliban. The U.S. supported a loose-knit alliance that opposed the Soviet puppet regime, one faction of which later became the Taliban. Oh, lest we forget, he was continuing a policy that started under Carter. Y'know, when you and your allies write RIDICULOUS things about Reagan, you lose credibility. Unlike you, most Americans revere his memory.
As to the missiles, they did their job, and they cost a fraction of what your pseudo-messiah has spent in less than 2 years. How fortunate that the purse-strings are about to be cut!!!
03:42 PM
Chung Lee says
Stormy, Chung Lee thinks you would be able to get discount on ladies night. Your post was complete nonsense and speaking of revisionist......Reagan put us in debt buidling missles that we need to maintain today, he gave illegals amnesty, and created the Taliban. Quite the record! If you would have asked him he would have given his Iran Contra statement. ..... I don't remember!
Ronald Reagan is the founding father of al-Qaeda.
03:28 PM
stormy says
Chunk, I am not now and have never been female. Perhaps you and Brutie should be nominated to share the "whispering coward" award. Instead of responding to my argument, you make dumb, un-funny jokes about medication.
And who better to receive the award than one who not only hides behind a user-name, but a phony ethnicity as well.
02:14 PM
Chung Lee says
Can Chung Lee say Tea Tools?
Ronald Reagan is the founding father of al-qaeda.
08:46 PM
brutus smith says
Hoft comes out with stuff on Monday and by Friday Snopes debunks it. But we never see a retraction from Hoft. I wonder why?
06:50 PM
SamAdams says
goofus, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that you can't be caliph if you're not a Muslim? Hmmm...
03:11 PM
EZOB says
To all the Left-Wing Radicals who were busy watching Fox last night!!!!!!!!! There was a very informative program on National Geographic that can better explain waht went on and is going on with the Mosques, Muslims, Jihad and such.
10:09 PM
goofus says
This probably won’t help dispel any of those “Obama is Muslim” rumors…
A Pakistani minister wants Obama to offer Eid Prayers at Ground Zero and declare himself the new Caliph of the Muslim World.
News.IN reported, via ROP:
That’s ridiculous.
We all know Obama is a Christian who attended a respectable church for years.
04:42 PM
brutus smith says
Or using "medical" marijuana.
04:16 PM
Chung Lee says
Looks lime Stormy forgot her meds
04:09 PM
stormy says
Maybe the far right has a tendency to spin history, but I've seen PLENTY of revisionist nonsense from the left on here. Like the load of mularkey that has America's problems beginning with Reagan.
Do you really think that everyone on here is too young to remember the 70s and 80s? Reagan rebuilt this country after Carter turned it into a laughing stock. Yes, Bush-lite left our economy in a mess. Carter left it in a BIGGER mess. Inflation, interest rates and unemployment were all double-digit at the same time, FAR worse than the most recent recession.
A recent post suggested that Republican presidents brought us two consecutive "Great Depressions," one in the 1930s and one under Bush-lite. MORE revisionist krap! The worst economic upheaval of the last half-century was brought to us by a liberal dem. The lefties on here would like America to forget what the last "progressive" president was like, but some of us have long memories.
01:15 PM
brutus smith says
Moderators have removed this comment because it contained personal attacks. Discussion Guidelines12:23 PM
SamAdams says
Brutus, just as so to maintain the reputation you've so generously given those you term "rightwingnuts," "Xenophobes" is spelled with an "o," not an "a." Seriously, has your browser had dictionary.com blocked or something?
I know you think misspellings are no big deal, but in one way they are: The lack of attention to detail in something so simple implies a potential lack of attention to detail in larger issues. It's the equivalent of those who make up names for those who disagree with them in the absence of anything TRULY debatable.
08:23 PM
EZOB says
Feere-- Like Ronald Reagan-- I can't spell the word, much less, know the definition-- Most probably used by Left-Wing Liberals when meeting Wing-Nuts.
Oligarchy-- I really like this one. Again, like Reagan, had to look it up in the "New" Webster. I think that this word was just beccame acceptabler, like ain't, to describe the present administration. Yep, that's it, they hit the nail on the Head, ruled by a few, O'Bama, Reid, Pelosi, and Napolitano.
Xenophobes-- You see, I don't want that bear for a pet that just killed that guy. Really, I'm smart enough to know I don't want any bear for a pet, precedents have been established. If you think these Foreigners like us, feel free to travel to Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, how many more places would you like to tour-North Korea?? Maybe even Mexico. Get this--THEY DON"T LIKE US!!!!! Please understand my feelings---I DON"T LIKE THEIR WAY OF LIFE AND I DON'T LIKE THEM!!! I really believe most minorities are more prejudiced than the majority of Americans. It's been a real long road and there's a long way to go, but there is also more acceptable approaches.
08:13 PM
goofus says
If this building is just going to be a community center, what's all this junk about religious freedom?03:43 PM
brutus smith says
Love the right wingnut word police on here. If you wingnutters would spend a fraction of the time spent on personal attacks to actually looking up history, you might actually become educated. You would know one of your heroes, Ronald Reagan, couldn't spell or punctuate worth a darn.
F. ear O. ligarchs X. enaphobes.
01:29 PM
Lucius says
As insignificant as this point may seem to be, I do not believe that "oligarthy" is a word. I think you might have meant "oligarchy." Perhaps the use of an online dictionary would enable you to better create acronyms insulting FOX.
09:51 AM
kURT says
Wow! Check out Barry Goldwater & his families past. Against gays till he learned his grandson was gay. Then he changed his stance (flip-flop). Wasn't his wife involved with an abortion clinic in Arizona?
History is great. All are dirty - some just more than others.
09:34 AM
brutus smith says
gene says "Thye say that there are already people in the U.S that are here for all the wrong reasons and want to harm us again". I agree. Their names are Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Murdock, Boehner, McConnel, 6079.
F. ear O. ligarthy X. enophobes.
09:31 AM
gene44870 says
hey where are these so called weapons at ? No one found then before during or after the war .so where are they ?
It was alla front for us to go to war , His dad took us to war and now the son did , And what did it cost us . well take a good look around yea
All your tax dollars are going to so called rebuild thier country that by the way , at the last report wasnt getting done , yet all this oney was sent over there to rebuild and that isnt be finished ,they have a brand new prison there , but no one is in it and only one guard at the main gate
The water treatment plant is suppose to be in working order yet they still have waste flowing through the streets .I am not defending then , but it really make me hot under the collar when i think of all the good them dollars could have done right here .and yet nothin is getting done accept the defist is at 12 trillion dollars yet no one wants to talk about that and try and fix it .
Oh and most of all if you recall , the us told the U.N That we would be invading them and the U.N ask us not too , Yet Bush seen fit to defy the U.N and go anyway .So who do we really have to blame , Bush and no one else , and thats the cold dirty and nasty facts like it or not
09:22 AM
Chung Lee says
Brutus that is too easy of question. These people are not capable of reflective thought. Interesting how these people clamor on about democracy but then they are against a world democracy? Only proves the least you know the better Republican you can be...... just ask Glenn Beck. "I held the inaugural address in my hands" followed by "always tell the truth". What a D-Bag!!!!
09:50 AM
gene44870 says
Its not about rights , its about respect for all who dies on that fatefull day , that changed this country and is suppose to make us stronger .
I think it should be left up to the people who losts there lives there and their families , and i would have to say that they would not want something like that , even if its a couple of blocks away
Its being disrepectifull to all the people that died due to there ways of life .And who can say that they may or may not use it as a breading ground for my attacks on U.S grounds ?
They say that there are already people in the U.S that are here for all the wrong reasons and want to harm us again , and you have to remember not only about the ones that died or died because of that day , but you have to use common sense and say no to this cause it could be a front to attack us again , and this time within the U.S boarders.Untill this was over and laden is brought to justice and the treat is disolved , then i would say no , You all are swarned to up hold the constitition and part of that is to protect the US through whatever means needed , But then you would in my eyes be saying that there writes over ride ours .wheres it end , when they biuld it and then declair victory in the war ?
I am not saying that is what they are or are not doing , But it makes me think as you should be .If they want to build here say they can pratice thier religion if you want to call it that , then let them go back to there country and they can all they want , but as long as they are in this country they should have to respect our wishes and not build one at this time .
remember all those who lived and died on 911 and still goes on today , and dont risk american lives
You have a responsiablity to everyone one weather they are republicians or demacrat or independent to protect us , and to defend the constitition forget about politics and use common sense .
where do you think one of the men that drove the plane into the twin towers learned how to fly ? right here in the so called land of the free , Try and remember that and do the right thing.
I am not against practice of free religion believe me , But then that religion cost lives of people that never needed to die , then I have to think that they should be concidered as well .
09:11 AM
brutus smith says
One question for the right wingnuts. Why is it you expect all other nations to follow UN directives but not us? That was the main reason Bush started a war with Iraq, they weren't following UN directives with "Weapons of mass destruction". OK for the pot but not the kettle. Typical right wingnut Conservative Repub philosophy, do as I say not as I do.
F. ear O. ligarthy X. enophobes
08:59 AM
Chung Lee says
Sam Adams you sound like confused girl who need man to think for you. Sort of like the founding fathers who thought the complexities of politics was far too difficult for the female mind to understand. Their words not Chung Lee's.
Chung Lee never heard about any connection Iraq had to 9/11 other than the obvious....... they are Muslims! Personally, Chung Lee would think the US was unjustified in their destruction and occupation of Iraq. What do you think peaches?
08:33 AM
SamAdams says
Duhast, it's not paranoia when it's a simple fact: Secretary of State Clinton and President Barack Obama DID "report" Arizona to the UN Human Rights Commission for human rights violations. That IS treasonous. Meanwhile, it should be fascinating to see what such Commission members and human rights advocates as China have to say about the whole thing...
Chung Lee, do NOT call me "honey." Do not call be baby, sweetie pie, or pumpkin, either. Patronization will get you nowhere, and trust me when I tell you: where I'm concerned, it'll get you there real fast. Insofar as "ground zero" goes, do you refer to "ground zero" in a nuclear blast ONLY as the place where the bomb blew up? Or is "ground zero" a RADIUS of destruction? (In case you're still unclear, it's the latter.)
For your further information, Chung Lee, I don't know that even the most hawkish have been "cavalier" toward death and destruction in Iraq or anywhere else. But war is war. Please explain how the attacks on 9/11 WEREN'T acts of war, and how the proposal to build the Ground Zero Mosque IS (your comparison of attitude, snookums, not mine).
07:47 AM
6079 Smith W says
The State becomes the religion.
07:39 AM
6079 Smith W says
07:24 AM
6079 Smith W says
Even after the war, many Germans tended to absolve Hitler of most wrong doing and blamed his advisors.
If you want atrocities study the results of the U.S.' Indian Removal Act:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act
07:06 AM
Duhast says
American & Baily. It's posts like yours they put up on the news after you finally go all the way off the deep end and shoot up a school, mall, or some other public location.
Paranoid schizophrenia Symptoms By Mayo Clinic staff
In paranoid schizophrenia, delusions are often focused on the perception that you're being singled out for harm. Your brain misinterprets experiences and you hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.
06:09 AM
Kimo says
05:19 AM
Americanonly says
Bailey, you are so right. Americans have closed their eyes and become a bunch of sheep going to slaughter. This President has been groomed by Kissenger (not sure of spelling) and a Russian man for the very job of leader of the NEW WORLD ORDER.... it's not fiction it's fact. He has gone all around the world asking countries to forgive us ...........People wake up... Name me one other country that has gone in after the war is over and rebuilt those places. This president of ours has bowed down to Arab leaders yet has shunned the Prime Minister of Israel. In many photos where others were standing in honor of our flag with their hands over their hearts, our president doesn't . This president has divided our country by his lies and his lack of love of America. He says he loves America........then why is he bent on distroying our economy by getting rid of capitolism... The more dependent we become on this government the more control they will have over you. By the time Americans realize what is going on with this president it will be way too late because Government will be completely in control NOT THE PEOPLE. Our Government has grown to enormous size and hasn't stopped ... It's growing more and more all the time. Our president has walked on our constitution and gets applause from Liberals... so many people have miss quoted the constitution so it shows me they really haven't read it.
10:22 PM
Bailey says
"How fortunate for leaders, that the masses do not think." - Hitler
09:30 PM
goofus says
Israel’s peace partners honored the mother of 4 Islamic terrorists.
The Minister of Prisoners’ Affairs, Karake, honors mother of 4 terrorists with PA Shield. [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Aug. 28, 2010- PMW]
As Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas was in Washington to discuss peace with Israel, members of the Palestinian Authority honored the mother of 4 suicide bombers in Bethlehem this week.
Arutz Sheva reported:
Obama may want to put up a few more Pro-Palestinian billboards in Israel
09:19 PM
goofus says
in fact it is the path that all extremists take.
Here is how it goes:
1). Come to truly believe, religious-like, in a new idea
2). Proselytize for it among your friends and family
3). Join other like-minded folks
4). Begin to lose friends and family for your insistence on your new faith
5). Begin to discount other people for not believing
6). Become too radical even for your early new, like-minded friends
7). Begin to believe that people are expendable and secondary to your new religion
8). Join other radicals that feel the same
9). Engage in or start claiming that property damage is right to push your religion
10). Last step: Commit violence for your religion
09:00 PM
Chung Lee says
Chung Lee is a little confused here Sam Adams. Because a building got hit by shrapnel it becomes part of ground zero? Ground zero by definition is point of explosion. The community center was hit by debris from the explosion. With that said, you are expousing an opinion that you want to be a fact. Honey it would be nice if you learned the difference between the two.
One more thing...... what you see as "a stunning lack of respect or human decency" May be seen by others as the "epitome of freedom of religion and expression". Do you remember the invasion of Iraq and the 24 hour coverage of "shock and awe? Do you think that maybe the cavalier attitude toward the death and destructions of men women and children may have been seen as "a stunning lack of respect or human decency?" Chung Lee is not justifying either but just pointing out a lack of consistency.