Birth control raises issues in Affordable Care Act

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Jul 16, 2014

 

I like reading Leonard Pitts’ columns and usually agree with his opinions. Recently, he wrote about the Supreme Court decision regarding the Affordable Care Act and the lawsuit about contraception. In the article Pitts compares contraception to blood transfusions. Really, Leonard? A blood transfusion is a procedure that can save a person’s life. Contraception for the purpose of preventing a pregnancy is a personal choice.

They are so far apart in similarities. One is to save lives, the other is to prevent a life. The four objectionable measures; two IUDs and two “morning after pills” all can prevent life. There are others available that are less objectionable.

If people want to use contraception, that is their prerogative, no matter what I believe. Contraceptive products are relatively cheap and are accessible to those who want to buy them.

Unless it is needed for a medical condition, why health insurance should be required to pay for something that has very little to do with health issues is beyond me. So, Leonard, if you are going to compare medical procedures; use examples that are comparable.

However, the other issue brought up deals with where one draws the line on what is objectionable to one’s religious beliefs.

That is where this decision has opened up a Pandora’s box. We as a nation need to tread lightly through this minefield of potential issues. But, it would not have been an issue had birth control not been part of the health care act.

—Howard Collins
Sandusky

Comments

deertracker

Are you a woman Howard? Have you ever bought condoms? Just like birth control pills, they have more than one purpose.

Men should stay out of this debate. Men can't conceive, give birth or abort a child so just buy your condoms and reduce YOUR worries!

Smcc Alum

Just because he is a man doesn't mean he cannot offer an opinion..

Nice article Mr. Collins

From the Grave

If men stayed out if "it", there wouldn't be an issue...

From the Grave

Life has nothing to do with a body. And no pill, medical procedure, gun, knife, disease, war, holocaust, plague, accident, or INCREDIBLE LEVEL OF STUPIDITY can end life.

dorothy gale

Birth control IS a health issue. Pregnancy can cause many health issues and even an average uneventful pregnancy costs insurance companies big bucks! Much cheaper to pay for the birth control than the fees that add up over 9 months.

sugar

Health care like birth control are not rights, pay for it yourself.

dorothy gale

I never said otherwise. I was responding to the portion of his letter in which he said birth control is not a health care issue. Thank you for your insightful reply, though.

sugar

You don't have to be a woman to understand the issue, deer. Isn't that like a minority male, wants nothing to do with the pregnancy and child.
The devices and drugs that HL found offensive are the ones that prevent the implantation of a possibly fertilized ova. That is murder, considering that life begins at conception.
Mr. Pitts is desperate, drawing a correlation between a possible life saving procedure and a definite life ending one.

The Big Dog's back

Have you been pregnant sugar? Once again if it were men that gave birth, this would be no issue. There would be abortion clinics on every corner.

Nemesis

And if conception was an unpleasant and difficult process, no one would care.

If it's about gender equality, then cap all paternity suits at the going rate for an abortion for 8 months after the father is informed of the pregnancy. If you're not advocating for that, then you're a hypocrite.

meowmix

Actually Big Dog-- I'm thinking the very best of Sugar ran down her daddy's leg...... :}

The Big Dog's back

Yes meowmix. This applies to sugar, knucklehead, durwood/goof, pooh, bottom feeder. Did I leave any other right wingnuts out?

deertracker

Yes you did but they know who they are! You got the top 5 though.

Informed

Pregnancy doesn't occur until implantation.

sugar

But CONCEPTION does. Please informed get informed.

Informed

I never said it didn't. I am informed.

Tyrion

Mr. Pitts is drawing a correlation between Hobby Lobby and a business owned by someone who has religious objections to blood transfusions. And, it's not desperate, it's merely a thought provoking question pertaining to where the line should be drawn concerning the religious beliefs of the owner and the coverage of the insurance that they provide to employees.

knowitall

Yes Tyr....it is a potential quagmire. If birth control had not been added as a health problem, this would not have been an issue yet.

Informed

No one said bc was a health problem. It is, however, a health care issue.

tk

Strange that they don't want to pay for birth control, but have no problem paying for Viagra.

dorothy gale

Right on! If pregnancy is god's will, why isn't it also god's will when a man can't get it up?!

knowitall

Who said it is god's will? It is a result of colitis. It is not god's will either if you can't get an erection. That could be the result of many things, none of which is the will of god. And I believe in the divine presence, aka: god

From the Grave

YOUR will IS God's will.

Tsu Dho Nimh

HL does cover birth control and covered birth control when other health plans didn't. The company objects to birth control that eliminates fertilized eggs. It may be a woman's right to "abort" but it's not society's obligation to pay for it. In regards to Viagra, a lot of women would be effected if their significant others were in need of the med but couldn't get it.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Just as ortho (and similar) pills aren't "just for fun", so too are medications such as phosphodiesterase 5 inhibitors (Viagra).

Viagra's Other Uses
Harvard Medical School
http://www.sciencedaily.com/rele...

I have a friend who was in a terrible car wreck and part of the treatment to increase circulation to his legs was a lotion with this medication in it. Applied topically it encourages blood flow to the area, and thus promotes healing.

Just something to consider.

Informed

Morning after pills are not the same as the abortion pill. The sad thing is too many people don't know the difference.

knowitall

Dear Informed....your name is a misnomer. The morning after pill can cause the embryo to not implant on the uterine wall. In my opinion, that is abortion. An abortion pill is used once the implantation has occurred.

meowmix

If a fertilized egg does not implant on the uterine wall how then would it become an embryo? You really aren't a knowitall.......

sugar

Sorry Meow but a fertilized ova is an embryo wether it implants or not. How can any of you comment on this subject when you do not what the he** you're talking about. Idiots. What's with the animal inferences with you guys? Dog, deer, meow?

meowmix

How can you comment on this subject when you have a brain the size of a non-fertilized egg? Please read below. Doink.

Informed

Well, your opinion would be medically wrong. An abortion is a termination of a pregnancy. A pregnancy hasn't occurred if there is no implantation. Most fertilized eggs don't result in pregnancy (i.e. implanting in the wall). So, are all of those spontaneous abortions? No. A spontaneous abortion (i.e. miscarriage) can only occur after pregnancy (implantation) has occurred.

sugar

So a tubal pregnancy is not a pregnancy? Amazing the embryo grows in the tube until the tube ruptures. SMH, keep posting your showing your vast knowledge of biology.

meowmix

UH WRONG!!! Sugar, I suggest you go back to high school. Dip-shart!

A fertilized egg is known as a zygote.

Definition:
After a female egg is fertilized, the resulting one-celled organism becomes known as a zygote. Once this has occured, the zygote begins a two-week period of rapid cell division and will eventually become an embryo.

Informed

Well, it is not a viable pregnancy. It is no more a pregnancy that a fertilized egg sitting in a lab.

sugar

Fertilized eggs that lay in a lab can be implanted into someone's uterus and be a viable pregnancy. They are alive zygote to embryo to fetus to baby. Life begins at conception.

Informed

But, once again, pregnancy has not occurred at conception.

sugar

So you agree that if said fertilized egg where allowed to implant it would result in a viable pregnancy? That interfering with that process causes the ending of a life?
Wanting desperately to be right does not make it so. You want to interfere in the process of life, fine but do not expect complicity from others.

knowitall

Once an egg has been fertilized it immediately starts to reproduce like any other living thing. That is life. Implanting is just another phase of its life/growth process. So, some of you hide your heads in the sand and deny the existence of life at conception.

Dr. Information

Good God you people are so misinformed. Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid.

The Big Dog's back

I know, I know, we're all stupid but you.

coasterfan

Odd comment, Doc. There is so much obvious Koolaid drinking on the Right, that it's difficult to have an intelligent conversation with many conservatives. There are actually people out there who:
1. Blame Obama for Hurricane Katrina (occurred in 2005, three years before hew as elected)
2. Think Saddam Hussein attacked America on 9/11. (Let's all thank Bush/Cheney for that)
3. Think Obama caused the problems with Iraq (began in 2004 under Bush/Cheney, and current problems there are a direct result of what happened in 2004)
4. Think Obama is unconstitutional because he uses Executive Orders, completely ignoring the fact that Reagan used them twice as often and Bush half again as often.

It appears that there is plenty of Koolaid to go around. It's been my experience that those who are absolutely certain that they are always correct, and that everyone who disagrees is "stupid" are the ones most susceptible to propaganda and information bias.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

I'll happily enjoy being in the clear majority (53%) who "think neither political party represents the American people".

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/...

I'd ask you to cite where you got your info, but...

You also again (this is getting toward the tenth time) think that the number of times an Executive Order is used somehow makes what is ordered to be irrelevant. It's baffling how such an educated man can so completely ignore that fact.

I'm not sure what you think of others. But whether or not you think they are stupid I'd ask you to check your own information bias. Especially as I know you are a smart man with a good education and not some name-calling, one-lining troll in these forums.

knowitall

The debate is about the use of contraceptives purely to stop a pregnancy. Sometimes women need the effects of the hormones in the birth control pills for things other than stopping a pregnancy. However, most of us taking birth control is for the purpose of preventing a life from forming. Some of those methods, not all, happen to destroy a fertilized egg. Those are the only dour methods mentioned that are objectionable. So, use your own dollars to buy your rubbers if all you want to do is not get pregnant.

YoMamma

I don't have a problem with birth control up to and including the MAP. I sure as hell don't want more SNAP card shoppers at the store!

2cents's picture
2cents

Even high schools have a pay to play policy at times. If you want to play with sex I would think that you would be willing to spend the $20 a month to do so, or at least get your partners to pay the bill for them to play in your garden! So what about the older guy that wants to play, should we provide his pill to play with a blank. In my eyes health care has nothing to do with having sex, what next should employers cover a guys vasectomy or a gal getting her tubes tied?

knowitall

Good comments 2cents. I think that is the point of the editorial. Birth control is cheap. It is usually not a health issue. It opens up a whole new set of problems. People can rationalize just about anything as health care, like you say. I think my health insurance should pay for my fruits and veggies since those are for healthy eating. Those affect our health more than whether or not I can get rubbers paid for.

ladydye_5

Birth Control pills are used for OTHER THINGS that just having sex. What part of that do people not understand. Regulating hormones, controlling excessive bleeding (to the of being anemic), cramps, a number of other conditions as well. Maybe they should not be called Birth Control pills anymore, knowing now that they can treat and help so many other MEDICAL conditions. And just to be clear, I was find paying my 10$ copay for my prescription. But when a man can get his boner pill for free, that p.i.s.s.e.d. me off.

Tsu Dho Nimh

You're right, there are other medical reasons to use birth control other than preventing pregnancy. However, the FOUR types that HL objects to are not the ones that are typically used for these reasons.

Nemesis

And all those uses have always been covered by every insurance plan on the market.

If you paid $10 for the Pill, then you need to switch pharmacies. It's $5/month at Target.

Informed

Not all oral contraceptive pills cost the same. Different ones are prescribed for different reasons.

meowmix

Most healthcare plans DO COVER vasectomy's and tubal ligations--at least mine does. Bad, bad, analogy.

knowitall

LadyDye....the morning after pill is NOT for regulating hormones or excessive bleeding or cramps. It is for preventing a pregnancy either before or after conception. The writer of the original editorial acknowledged there are positive uses for some birth control pills. It also mentioned there were only four contraception methods that were objected to in the original lawsuit. Many others, probably those you may have taken, that we're not objectionable to the Hobby Lobby group. Actually, the "boner" pill is for the female anyway. :-)

ladydye_5

My comment was directed at you saying that the birth control pill was not a health issue. Hormones, excessive bleeding and cramps ARE health issues. Or 2cents saying "health care has nothing to do with having sex". And if you notice I was speaking of birth control pills like you all were. NOT the morning after pill which you are speaking of now. TWO different things.

I do not work for Hobby Lobby , nor do I care what they cover or do not cover. I am tired of the government and the insurance companies having so much control over my health and treatments. My doctor cannot use, prescribe or allow certain treatments because some nitwit that has no medical training in an office says it is not usual and customary/unapproved. (but that is for another argument)

eriemom

Yet, ladydye5, you seem okey with an employer being able to tell your doctor how to do his or her job. Personally, I want to make my own health decisions with advice from my doctor. Pregnancy is a health issue.

Women still die during childbirth. Some of us should not conceive because of mental or medical problems. That being said, I was prescribed birth control pills twice during my child-bearing years. Both prescriptions were made without first consulting a politician, judge or my employer. Neither was prescribed to prevent pregnancy.

2cents's picture
2cents

Lady, my daughter was prescribed the pill as she began to change when she was young due to heavy bleeding, she opted off of it when she was stable because of the weight gain effect. She also chose abstinence until marriage so that she could finish college and make herself a good future. Now I have never had insured eye care, as in glasses, contacts and such but if I go to the eye doctor with a medical problem, that problem is covered. I would see the same with the pill, it can be used for other purpose than just to play.

coasterfan

Men don't like women telling them what to do / not do with their sex lives, so it's interesting that so many men feel they should be able to tell women what they can/cannot do with theirs. That sort of misogyny may have worked in the 1950's, but it doesn't wash today, especially with young people.

It's far less expensive to prevent an unwanted birth than it is to support the child after it's born. Conservatives don't want to prevent unwanted births, yet don't want to provide financial support for those kids after they are born.

2cents's picture
2cents

To raise an average child to age 18 it costs about $250,000.00. The parent or potential parent has a choice to either keep their panties on or off. This entire argument is about government over reach. If the lady wishes to play she can always go to the health department, see a doctor and be prescribed the pill for entertainment purpose.

YoMamma

In most cases it cost the taxpayers much more with all the entitlements!

anthras

Coasterfan says "It's far less expensive to prevent an unwanted birth than it is to support the child after it's born. Conservatives don't want to prevent unwanted births, yet don't want to provide financial support for those kids after they are born."

Coaster why does the left keep saying the court ruling has taken away woman's reproductive health rights? HL has and will continue to provide 16 different forms of birth control items also used for other reasons for a woman's health. The women can still obtain the other 4 abortion items if they wish as that right was not taken away however HL will still pay for the 16 but will not pay for the remaining 4 that will still be available if a woman wishes to kill her baby.

Also remember that HL does pay almost twice of minimum wage so I do think that if a woman had to pay for just the 4 abortion drugs she would still be better off than someone that has the item in her coverage however was getting only min wage.

sugar

A pregnancy is not sex life, a pregnancy is a child the result of a sex life. And prevention is not abortion your confusing the two.
The misogynists are the people who whip up uninformed, low info women into frenzies over perceived attacks to their independence.

Donegan

I do not like women telling me what to do with my paycheck, So please quit stealing half of it to pay for your crap through taxes.

Nemesis

"it's interesting that so many men feel they should be able to tell women what they can/cannot do with theirs."

And exactly where is that happening?

Coasterfan again fails to grasp basic logic. There are two concepts you repeatedly fail to understand:

Government reluctance to ban something is not an endorsement of it.

Government/employer refusal to subsidize something is not a ban on it.

sugar

No one really cares about standard birth control pills, and when used for other things than birth control it's called hormonal therapy. HL did not want to pay for abortifacants, SCOTUS said ok, the end.

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

Both the Bible and science teach that life begins at conception.

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb . . . your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be"

Abortion is murder in the eyes of your Creator.

Nemesis

Well, you got the Bible part down, but where's your citation for science teaching that?

Informed

Not according to Judaism. But I forgot--in your eyes Jewish beliefs don't matter.

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

You are correct, I have no interest in religion.

Religion is man trying to reach up to God.

Christianity is God reaching down to man.

Informed

You are delusional. It's fine to have faith. But to think that only you know what God thinks or wants is arrogant.
Hate to break it to you, but Christianity is a religion.

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

That’s alright uninformed, I wouldn’t expect an unregenerate individual to understand the higher knowledge of the things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14

Just as no man had any part in their natural birth, they can have no part in the spiritual birth. That is by and of God.

John 3:3-5

It is my responsibility to proclaim the good news, but it is not up to me who receives it and who rejects it. I do my job by speaking it in love. Maybe you'd like to crucify me, like they did when Jesus did the same?

Dr. Information

Hobby Lobby still covers birth control. Get over it liberals, you and you messiah lost.

Truth or Dare

I agree that life begins at conception, and that men like to "play" just as much if not more then women! At least every 2 minutes of the day, which is all the more reason maybe more women need to take control, real control, as in sterilization and I'm not talking them! Don't want anymore children, or never wanted them, cut off the life source until it's taken full, personal responsibility themselves!

Hollie Newton

Don't like birth control - don't take it. But why should your religious beliefs interfere with what I am doing with MY body? 

 

Donegan

You do not want others to take a interest in what you do with your body yet ask others to care enough to buy stuff for you? I do not know you and do not care what you do, Do not ask me to help pay for it though.

sugar

Who is interfering with your body? Here you go Coasterfan, here is an example of what tou loons create.

Nemesis

"why should your religious beliefs interfere with what I am doing with MY body?"

Please point out where anyone has said they should.

Government reluctance to ban something is not an endorsement of it.

Government/employer refusal to subsidize something is not a ban on it.

knowitall

Hollie,,,,,do with your body what you want. I am not against all birth control, just those that kill a fertilized egg. Just don't expect someone else to pay for it when in all cases the four objectionable methods are not used for health issues. There are alternatives that are less objectionable.

meowmix

Uh oh, based upon my below finding--it appears the odds are pretty high of at some point in time in my life that I had an abortion unbeknownst to me..... Sanctimonious teabaggers should really have to be registered as lethal weapons because of the poisonous gases they emit.

The period of the zygote lasts for about four days. Around the fifth day, the mass of cells becomes known as a blastocyst. The germinal period will last for fourteen days, after which the embryonic period will begin. The second period of development lasts from two weeks after conception through the eighth week, during which time the organism is known as an embryo. At the ninth week post-conception, the fetal period begins. From this point until birth, the organism will be known as a fetus.

Researchers estimate that nearly 60 percent of all naturally occurring conceptions fail because the zygote never becomes properly implanted in the uterus.

Nemesis

What's your point?

meowmix

To contradict this asinine statement typed previously--my point was, even without a pill, most fertilized eggs usually DO NOT result in a pregnancy. So what the hell is the big deal by taking a pill to be doubly sure it doesn't????

"Dear Informed....your name is a misnomer. The morning after pill can cause the embryo to not implant on the uterine wall. In my opinion, that is abortion."

knowitall

Why not use a rubber? Get one out of your purse and give it to the guy. You are right about the definition of an embryo,but it is still a fertilized egg....a living human you are killing. You have to live with yourself.......so sorry.

Nemesis

And you failed; it doesn't contradict that. People die of natural causes every day; that doesn't excuse someone who intentionally CAUSES one of their deaths with a gun or knife. Many people drown because they fail to reach shore - that doesn't excuse it if someone makes it impossible for someone to reach shore and they drown.

The whole point you're arguing is irrelevant. Some religions hold ALL birth control to be wrong. Some bar just abortifacients, and they get to make their own determination of what is an abortifacient. You don't get to pick and choose which religious beliefs make enough sense to you to warrant falling under the umbrella of freedom of religion. You don't get to say that the first Amendment protects those religions that claim an even number as the maximum number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin, and not those that say it's an odd number.

Donegan

Once again me and most people could care less about you and what you do with yourself, Just do not ask the rest of us to pay for you. You can have all the birth control you want or need, Hell stock up on the crap but quit trying to make everyone pay for you.
If i wanted to pay for someone i hardly knows sex, i would buy a prostitute.

Informed

Kitty, there is no point trying to explain science to some of these people. They probably believe the earth is only 6,000 years old. It is scary the number of people who do not know how it all works, that many birth control methods prevent implantation, that the morning after pill is not the same as the abortion pill, that many, many people are prescribed oral contraceptives for reasons other than birth control, and that most fertilized eggs are never implanted and instead are discharged from a woman's body. I guess we all "murder" babies all the time because we don't save all those fertilized eggs and have them implanted. Yet, why aren't these same people protesting labs who keep fertilized eggs frozen? Isn't that the same as freezing a baby?

knowitall

Informed.....I know you aren't talking about me as I have a degree in biochemical engineering and have taught biology at the college level. As far as frozen ferrilized eggs, when they are finally destroyed, it ends a soul. I know all that stuff you mentioned and you are correct. It goes back to the age old premise of when a human soul is formed. We will have to agree to disagree on the time that happens.
What else can we talk about? What are your thoughts on the Ukrainian situation or Gaza? Maybe we can find common ground???

Informed

Not everyone believes in a soul, nor is a soul protected in the Constitution or any other law.

Hollie Newton

 My employers are providing health insurace as a service as part of my compensation for working for them. How does that make them able to decide what I may or may not use as birth control - or anything else? Why is it any business of theirs what type of birth control I decide to use? Why do they even care? If they disagree with a type of bc - then they can choose not to use it - how can they possibly have the right to tell me which types I can use? 

sugar

Face palm...... They aren't deciding, you decide than you pay for it. No one has taken away your ability to get these meds or devices.

Dr. Information

Libreals want freedom but want others to pay for it. THAT describes them in a nutshell.

meowmix

Lib-reals? I actually like that! Makes teaturds Con-unreals?

knowitall

Are there really liberals and conservatives? Or are there people who lean liberal or lean conservative but can have views on various subjects that are categorized in both areas? The answer is yes btw. Meo....I am guessing you lean liberal, as do I, and you have some views that would be labeled as conservative. Some people just lean a little further in their preferred direction. I am glad we all don't think alike. Separation of powers in government was partially for that reason, so we get those checks and balances.

meowmix

I absolutely agree 100% with your statement knowitall. I don't consider myself a radical left-leaner, but a typical left-leaner. I'm in the middle of the spectrum on a few issues and can honestly say, absolutely none to the right of it. I agree diversity is a good thing but to thwart a President simply because he is black (which I believe a good percentage of the conservative party does) is a travesty to this nations well-being.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

What a sad, pessimistic, ignorant belief you have then, meow. One that shows just how prejudiced your "diverse" thoughts actually are and how little you care about anyone who doesn't agree with you.

A "good" percentage does not "thwart" for that reason. Perhaps extreme, minor portions can't get past half his racial makeup. However, you'll find many more conservatives (of which the Republican Party is becoming less and less every day) do not disagree with skin color as their reason.

Use me for an example. Feel free to call me out on where any of the points I have made against him have had anything to do with his pigmentation. What about Sam? Nemesis? Grumpy? Contango? The other "right" commentators who (except for Contango as he gets snippy but still actually cites points and makes arguments on reason) don't wade into the BS of drive-by-one-liner name calling?

Maybe when you stop having a prejudice against people you'll truly open your mind to who is saying what out there and that it is OK for people to think differently than you do. You'll also find that you hold many more "right" beliefs than you think you do. I'm sure if we were to sit down and have a lunch conversation together you'd find we'd agree on more than you may think at first blush. However, that hardly makes me "left".

Though unless you'd like to stop by the Lunch Box or another eatery sometime, I am all for talking in these forums with you more often to illustrate the above point.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

You made good points, knowitall.

I am glad we all don't think alike, and I also prefer to not think of it as a mutually exclusive/total sum single axis of "left/right". You reminded me of this Presidential quote:

"You and I are told increasingly we have to choose between a left or right. Well I'd like to suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There's only an up or down: [up] man's old -- old-aged dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order, or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. And regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course."

I will add to your appreciation of checks and balances with the fact that political parties specifically circumnavigate those restrictions. That is their untold point. What good does the separation of the Executive and Legislative branches have if all who have the same letter after their name agree on what they are going to do no matter what? That is the sleeping, inherit destroyer of the checks and balances system.

Another Presidential quote foresaw this exact thing happening: “However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”

And additionally...

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissension, which in different ages & countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders & miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security & repose in the absolute power of an Individual: and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty."

knowitall

Right on Hero! Or should I say Left on? Lol

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

The dude abides. Heh. Thanks, knowitall.

Nemesis

The problem is conflating a set of principles with a political party.
There are many who self-identify as leftists but who, in reality, simply nod at everything the Democratic Party says. There are just as many who self-identify as conservatives,but who just nod at everything the Republican Party says. Both parties are marching toward totalitarianism; the only difference is the speed at which they march, and whose buttons they push to get there. The Republicans give lip service to reducing government, but roughly 100 of the freshman Republican members of Congress, who were voted into office on promises not to raise the debt ceiling, voted to do so in their first year in office.

There's a third category as well. The opportunists who don't hew to a principle or a party, whose entire political calculus is based on whose ox is being gored. They are the ones whose judgement of an entitlement, tax break, law, or regulation is based solely on whether it's aimed at them or at some other constituency.

There are also those who embrace a principle, but abandon it when an issue pushes their emotional buttons. Sam is very sincere in her libertarian desire to limit government power, but her visceral reaction to the scariest criminals is to grant government the most awesome and abusable power of all - to kill its citizens.

I've worn many of those hats. As a teenager, I was way out on the left, because it spoke to all my apprehensions about impending life as an adult. As a college student, I spent a few years nodding to anything the Republicans said. Then I became a fair-weather libertarian, carving out exceptions for the things that really bothered me. Logic dragged me, kicking and screaming, away from support for the death penalty and the war on drugs, and other statist causes that pushed my emotional buttons. It's been most amusing and enlightening to see others dragged from the other side.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Thank you for sharing that! Reminds me of the Winston Churchill quote, “If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”

Though some seem to come around before forty hits. Truly events like these are amazing to watch people go through. Once done, though, you feel like a brand new person freed from the shackles of conformity and restraint of what other people tell you to think, say, and do.

Informed

So I guess people who believed in the civil rights movement and against the Vietnam War had no brain?

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Why would you say that?

knowitall

It saddens me to think about the brave lives lost due to the political buttholes who got us into those fruitless and unnecessary wars such as Iraq #2 and Vietnam. It amazes me the arrogance of a worthless SOB like Cheney. He should be indicted for war crimes. Yet he continues to take no responsibility for his decisions on starting the Iraq War. He was the "president", not Bush. God bless our service people. Damned be to those who put them in harms way for their political motives. People like Cheney use others like they are playing a video game.