Cedar Point takes lead on admissions tax

Register
Jul 25, 2014
Editor’s note: This is the letter sent from Cedar Point vice president and general manager Jason McClure to Sandusky city manager Eric Wobser concerning the proposed admissions tax increase:

Dear Eric,

As you heard in your first meeting with our team, Cedar Fair recognizes the importance of generating additional economic development in Sandusky. A healthy and growing economy benefits both today’s citizens and importantly, those generations who come behind us.

A little over a year ago we started an internal analysis to determine the best approach to support a broader range of local economic development efforts. This work recognized the loss of resources the city has experienced as the state tax system has evolved.

As you now have learned, taxes paid by Cedar Point to the city represent more than one-third of the total annual tax receipts for the city.

Cedar Point is also responsible for more than 98 percent of the admission taxes the city receives. For the long-term health of the city, we simply must continue to find opportunities to diversify and grow the tax base.

While I know it is extremely early in your tenure with the City, we have been very encouraged by your commitment to taking a thoughtful approach to reinvigorating the local economy.

As we have explained to you, within rational limits, we support broad based taxes such as income taxes, as this aligns everyone’s interests and, to some degree, would start to moderate the city’s reliance on a single tax payer.

To demonstrate our commitment to the opportunities that you see ahead of us, we are prepared to pay additional taxes as notedbelow.

As part of our on-going, corporate tax planning we are prepared to execute an approach that will, based upon our current performance, result in the city receiving additional income tax revenue from Cedar Point of approximately $500,000 annually beginning in 2015.

Additionally, we will support a 1 percent increase in the admission tax rate, subject to the approval of a .25% increase in the city’s income tax rate; and, the absence of any competing admission tax proposals.

These additional revenue streams will help to stabilize the budget challenge. To solidify the city’s commitment to long-term economic development, we have agreed that 50 percent of the admission tax increase will be dedicated to an economic development fund that would be directed by your office.

From 2012 to the end of 2015, Cedar Point will have invested more than $100 million in incremental capital expenditures designed to protect and grow tourist visitation to Cedar Point with ancillary benefits to local businesses. Finding others who will invest in the future of Sandusky is critical. With the increased tax revenues referenced above along with your dedicated commitment to developing a vision for moving Sandusky forward, there will be both the tools and the plan to make a real difference. We look forward to continuing to work in partnership with you and other community leaders to build on the progress implied by this first step. Welcome home to Sandusky. Sincerely,

—Jason McClure
Vice President & General Manager Cedar Point

Comments

Sandumpy Proud

LOL! Cedar Point is dictating how much of an increase in admissions tax they will accept and with the stipulation that the .25% income tax is approved? This is hilarious! What's even more funny is how the commissioners bent over for them! What a bunch of clowns all around!

Comrade Boose

It's called a compromise yes it's not what Rebuild Sandusky committee wanted but in the end it is a GREAT deal for Sandusky

follow us on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Rebuild...

Sandumpy Proud

What a douche

sugar

Agree! He just wants what's best for all he wants to Rebuild Sandusky!

Sandumpy Proud

What's even more surprising is how well Jeff Smith went along with this. I thought he was a fiscal conservative.

lc040103

Great response. I think the city finds it easier to just point to the big dogs to just keep paying instead of supporting economic growth and support in our local business. We have many resources to offer and great potential yet we just sit stagnant.

Sandumpy Proud

I would like to hear Mr. sugar's thoughts on this article.

Babo

Well played CF, decimated the citizen led 6% admissions tax drive
and got the Commission to link 1% increase to an income tax increase. Both will likely go down at the polls unless of course there's a huge turn out of non income producers at the polls.

knowitall

That be me to vote YES! More than once if needed.

Nemesis

That's not difficult to achieve since the city's entire problem is an overabundance of non-working, non-taxpaying people who nonetheless vote.

The letter makes a good point about overdependence on a single taxpayer. Cedar Point stepped up and offered to accept a 33% increase in a punitive tax directly targeted at them, provided the citizens put some skin in the game with a smaller 25% increase. Given that CP currently contributes over a third of the city budget, that's more than fair; it's downright generous, and then, they go even further to give the city a half million dollar annual gift on top of that by restructuring their payroll tax obligations. When was the last time you left a deduction sitting on the table at tax time out of a desire to help the community?

sugar

ROTFLMAO!!!! The last paragraph tells it all. I can't stop laughing. CHUMPS.

The Big Dog's back

Quit looking in the mirror, maybe you'll stop.

Julie R.

Blackmail at it's finest.

FalconBall

I agree. Many in Sandusky want to blackmail CP. Businesses don't want taxation without representation. CP pays the admissions tax, then collects income tax from the employees as the city's largest employer and pays property tax. What more do people want? Why would a business want to relocate to Sandusky to encounter the attitude I read in these posts?

Julie R.

As I'm sure you know, that's not what I meant. It's the city of Sandusky that's trying to blackmail the people. (no surprise there)

FalconBall

I see the city as attempting to remain viable so that a successful business can remain viable. Cedar Point is going nowhere, it can't move, but the customers can go somewhere else. Look at old resort towns outside of New York City that once boomed and are now mostly abandoned hotels. Cedar Point can fail which will cause a trickle down effect in the community. You're are all in this together.

downthemiddle

It doesn't sound as if you would open a business that employs full time people and hire someone like "big dog".

Would anyone else?

I'm simply trying to understand what happened to all the jobs.

knowitall

I am guessing Big Dog does not have a job and is on the govt roles.

Sandumpy Proud

So if there wasn't a .25% income tax increase on the ballot Cedar Point wouldn't pay the increased admissions tax? Wow!

Comrade Boose

Think of it as going into a casino You ( the local tax payer) put's $25.00 down on a single deck black jack game then Cedar Point (the casino) matches that bet. You get Black Jack instead of winning $37.50 ( street repairs) you win $75.00 (street repairs, station 7 open, dead tree's taken care of)

https://www.facebook.com/Rebuild...

sugar

Lol giving your money to gov is a huge cr*p shoot, with the taxpayer being on the end of a 44.

knowitall

Sugar....don't you work either? You seem to write on these blogs all day, every day.

Nemesis

(street repairs, station 7 open, dead tree's taken care of)

OR....

A shiny new city hall downtown.

Comrade Boose

If you watched Mr. Wobsers plan he laid out where the tax money is to go no mention of a new shiny city hall

Mr. 25 Cents

Cedar Point is kicking in $500,000 of additional income taxes starting in 2015. If the ballot initiative to increase the income tax to 1.25% fails, Cedar Point will still pay the $500,000 every year.

Nemesis

Actually, that offer seems contingent upon the ballot issue passing. They've made it clear they're not going to carry this burden alone without the residents having skin in the game.

Comrade Boose

NO IT's NOT!!
Quit misleading the readers

Go to https://www.facebook.com/Rebuild...
watch the video or look at the slides the only thing that is contingent on the income tax passing is the 1% admissions tax not the $500,000.00

MiddleRight

Sandusky still has one of the lowest income tax rates around. Port Clinton, Milan, Norwalk, Fremont, and Bellevue all have 1.5%. Huron is at 1%. Vermilion is at 2.5%. You should support this proposal and make sure the commissioners spend it wisely.

sugar

Did you not read the letter? CF supports this city, 1/3 of it. PC , Milan, Norwalk , Fremont, Bellevue and Huron do not have millions given to them from an amusement park, and yet somehow they make it. CF is telling the city to get their sh** together . And we are telling them to live in their means. 40 years of stinkin Dem, crony capitalism RINO rule has led to this. Enough. Look north people this is what Detroit did.gave into public sector unions, ran the companies to dry and raked their citizens through the coals.

knowitall

Vote YES.

Nemesis

Sugar, it's not all about spending. It's largely because the percentage of residents who work and pay taxes has fallen too far....too many grasshoppers, not enough ants.

sugar

Agreed, I've said it but in light of that the city should realize that placing the burden on the few of us in the city who do work and the poor schmucks who happen to work hete is wrong.

Comrade Boose

And Sandusky will still have one of the lowest tax rates at 1.25%

Support the proposal and hold the commission accountable.

FalconBall

CP, as would any other successful local business, gets in the discussion of how the city, that many want to single-handedly support, should spend the tax money. This is what happens in successful communities.

I think what can be gleaned from this article is that CP realizes their customer don't want to drive through a dying community to visit their resort. At the same time the resort must make incremental improvements to remain viable. CP needs to invest in itself and the community needs to invest in itself.

The Big Dog's back

Well spoken. People like sugar want to turn it into Detroit.

Darwin's choice

That "democrat mecca" your party has destroyed?

democrats/failed detroit

obama/failing daily

The Big Dog's back

So Dems sent the jobs overseas?

downthemiddle

hand in hand with the uaw and the rest of the unions.

The Big Dog's back

I didn't know they (unions) owned the companies.

sugar

Clinton signed NAFTA.

The Big Dog's back

So Dems are the job creators?

knowitall

That dirty punk along with that republican congress. Ross Perot said we would hear a giant sucking sound of jobs going overseas. Yep per!

sugar

They have plenty of money, they all got raises down on Meigs St. When the taxpayer supported civil servants are earning more than those supporting them we have a problem. If this city had a thriving economy and people felt they were living well no one would be against the increase.

FalconBall

It could be worse. Imagine Sandusky with a failing Cedar Point. What would that look like?

sugar

Are you freaking serious? Sorry I don't base my monetary decisions on make believe.

knowitall

It would look like Perkins when most of the restaurants and hotels close.

Mr. 25 Cents

@ FalconBall

It would be more accurate to say that Cedar Point realized that there would be an issue on the ballot in November asking voters to increase the admissions tax to 6%. Instead of alienating the community by fighting the ballot issue, Cedar Point offered a compromise, including $500,000 in additional tax revenue every year, regardless of what happens in November. Currently, Sandusky has one of the lowest income tax rates in Ohio for a county seat. And, even with the increase to 1.25%, it would still be among the lowest income tax rates in the state. So, Cedar Point has agreed to contribute an additional $1.3 million (the $500,000 in income taxes and $800,000 in admission taxes) if Sandusky residents are willing to increase their income tax rate by 25 cents for every $100.

FalconBall

Just like a new business works out tax incentives and then provides some sort of funding directed toward the local school for technology or another pet project. This is how businesses work the system these days. Business wants to be popular and make a profit for their shareholders. CP came up with what they considered a formula acceptable to them.

sugar

Idiot that's what Detroit did, that's your Colman Young city! Lol

reader

The deal reached between the city, Cedar Fair, and Rebuild Sandusky offers the best route to stable funding for those city services we all desire and an avenue to work toward economic development to attract more investment in our city.

Our income tax rate is lower than any adjacent county seat income tax.

The city has already cut almost one third of its employees. Any further reductions would have a harsh impact on the quality of life issues that attract new businesses and new residents.

The deal reached brings in an equal amount dollar wise from the proposed income tax increase and the restructuring and admissions tax increase. Every dollar the citizens pay will be matched by new income from Cedar Fair.

I love my town and enjoy living here. I want to see Sandusky prosper, thrive, and grow. A YES vote in November will be a start.

knowitall

Damn reader you make sense!

sugar

Rebuild Sandusky did NOT have a darn thing to do with the "deal", besides it was no deal it was an edict. Not that I blame CF, they were proactive but they did in so any words chastise the city government.

sugar

Oh let me add that I am concerned with the quality my life and it will be adversely effected by parting with more of my income.

reader

Don't blather on about that which you know nothing about. Eric Wobser sat down with both Cedar Fair and Rebuild Sandusky separately and brokered this agreement for the future of Sandusky.

Sugar, you are a poor spirited nay sayer. I would not want to live in the Sandusky you're hoping for.

sugar

Didn't you read the headline? Cedar Fair took the lead. Rebuild is nothing more than a bunch of union bozos trying to keep their control on the city gov.
Calling me names changes nothing. And we are already living in that Sandusky. You don't care about Sandusky, you are either a union member or one of those hanger ons to that group of people.

Sugarr

Soo... It's ok to call the people of rebuild names but not you.
Fact one you have offer nothing to the solution other then spout nonse
Fact two Rebuild is not made up of union members
Fact three you have offered nothing to the solution
Fact four rebuild took the lead on this
Fact five you have offered nothing to the solution
Fact six Mr. Wobser brokered a compromise
Fact seven you have offered nothing the solution
Fact eight Cedar Fair wants to help but doesn't want to foot the whole bill so they came up with a sweet deal for the citizens
Fact nine you have offered nothing to the solution
Fact ten the commissioners who we elected to represent us see this as a GREAT DEAL for us and back it 100%
Fact eleven YOU HAVE OFFERED NOTHING TO THE SOLUTION !!!

sugar

Bring back the city workers who retired at 50. So you expect the population who will have to work until 66.6 and up to 67 before they see a retirement benefit is going to go along with another tax increase? Next city schools are going for it. TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY!

knowitall

It is your republican friends that keep wanting to raise the retirement age. They have no use for the middle class. The ONLY thing that has to happen to make social security solvent till 2080 is eliminate the cap on social security earnings. Right now an employee earning less than $113700 has 100% of their wages taxed. Over that figure the taxes are gone. So, the rich pay less taxes on their income than poor and middle class. Remove the cap and you can retire when a normal person should be able to.

sugar

My Republican friends ? No I don't think so. SS is way to big a discussion for this thread. What is, is.
VOTE NO.

sugar

I think Comrade, know it all and a few others change their posting names and try to make it look like there are many supporters. I expect more of this bully stuff to come up. These union types can be nasty.

FalconBall

This isn't about unions this is solid conservative support of the business community. If the business of this size steps up so must the citizens.

Comrade Boose

Exactly this is about rebuilding a community and not about unions getting rich.
This is about Cedar Point not footing the entire bill
This is about people taking pride in their community
This is about Rebuilding Sandusky https://www.facebook.com/Rebuild...

Mr. 25 Cents

I think Sugar is actually Dennis Murray, Jr. pretending to be a Republican so that Democrats unite behind the tax increase.

sugar

We know who all the supporters are. The FD, the PD the city employees and a few fat retired auto workers.

knowitall

Sugar.....only one name.

ohioengineer

One more time: the issue is not WHO pays the increase in taxes, but WHY that increase is needed. As long as the city of Sandusky has a Sugar Daddy (CP) to go to whenever things get tight, there is no incentive to economize. Cleveland milked the steel mills, Akron the rubber shops and Detroit the car manufacturers. How did that plan work out?

Mr. 25 Cents

The income tax increase is needed because the state has been cutting the funding it provides to the city so that the state can cut income taxes. Because CP doesn't want to be the city's sugar daddy, it has asked the city to increase its income tax rate by .25%, which would still place Sandusky among the cities with the lowest municipal income tax rates. Cleveland, Akron, and Detroit didn't fail because of a .25% income tax increase. They failed because the industries on which the cities were based moved their production overseas to countries where wages were a fraction of those in Ohio.

knowitall

I know some farmers that milked the cows.

sugar

Thank you engineer. NO MORE MONEY! They have enough, find ways to economize, I do.

Mr. 25 Cents

The city has found ways to economize. They've cut dozens of jobs. And they've stopped resurfacing roads. But, ultimately, unlike you, the city has to attract employers. Having good roads and safety services, and eliminating blight are important components to bringing new jobs to town. Detroit economized. It stopped plowing streets. It cut its safety services to the point where it takes 45 minutes for police to respond to a call. You could move up there now and get a good deal on a house, then you wouldn't have to deal with the burden of paying for safety services that you don't use.

Darkhorse

Sandusky has no choice in the matter. They have gotten themselves so far into debt that the city is now beholden to Cedar Point to pull us out of all the mess and in exchange, Cedar Point gets to call the shots on how the money is to be spent especially infrastructure that benefits Cedar Point. It remains to be seen if the residence will benefit from any of the additional money after more wages and benefits are given out. Keep feeding that union.

FalconBall

The state wants local government to fund itself and inflicted large immediate cuts a couple years ago. The alleged lower state taxes, although most probably don't even notice a reduction, have created this new funding. Apparently it is better for thriving communities to have lower state taxes and that is what every community needs to work toward in order to make it work. Unfortunately it takes money to make money and the taxpayers are going to be locally burdened by higher taxes or less services.

Babo

You omit that the State made a policy decision not to apply sales taxes to Admissions years ago, so that communities that are impacted by large crowds could tax the customers (not the business) of these entities directly. Unlike other businesses which charge sales tax on most sales; CF does not have to collect sales taxes from its customers for ticket sales. It does collect sales tax on food and retail sales in the park. However those tax dollars go mostly to the county and state

The state provided a great vehicle for local governments such as Sandusky to fund themselves through Admissions taxes on customers of amusement parks, stadiums, theatres etc which do not pay sales taxes. If Sandusky had taken advantage of this opportunity, it could lower its income tax rate to make it more attractive to businesses and high income people that currently seem to rather operate in Perkins Township.

Nemesis

"You omit that the State made a policy decision not to apply sales taxes to Admissions years ago, so that communities that are impacted by large crowds could tax the customers (not the business) of these entities directly."

He omits nothing. Admissions were excluded because they fell into the larger excluded category of almost every service transaction that doesn't involve the exchange of tangible goods.

"Unlike other businesses which charge sales tax on most sales; CF does not have to collect sales taxes from its customers for ticket sales."

Fully taxed in-park sales constitute the bulk of their revenue.

cloakes

It is not up to Cedar Point to pay for all of Sandusky. The people of Sandusky need to tell their commissioners to get their sh++ together pull in their belts and be resposible in their spending, or you may end up like Detroit. Cedar Point has offered to help and your commissioners and fiscal departments need to take it and the citizens of Sandusky need to contribute their share. And the powers that be that were elected by the citizens need to get it together and become more fiscally responsible.

bnjjad

When you try and make one organization responsible for most of the income in a city. You are asking for trouble when that organization drops out. Its called diversification. You diversify your investment portfolio to be safe. so the city should also diversify the income

knowitall

Perkins needs to pull itself out of the doldrums. They should not rely on Cedar Point......oh wait, if there is no CP then most of the businesses on 250 will fold. And when the quarry runs out of stone then what. How about when KbI closes up. So, diversify!

Nemesis

Perkins doesn't have to worry like Sandusky. They have a sufficient percentage of their population working and paying taxes.

Dr. Information

Sandusky people so resemble the US government. They want CP to support the entire city, like Obama wants the 1 % to funderstand all of America.

This is a good deal sandusky, take it.

knowitall

Vote YES!

knowitall

You so don't understand that it is the middle class that funds The US, not you and the 1%.

Dr. Information

Most of the middle class pays absolutely no Federal taxes. Come again?

Babo

Some statistics please to back up your claim.

Nemesis

Can you cite any definition of the floor of middle class, by any legitimate party on the left or right that exceeds the 20th percentile of wealth, or for the ceiling that exceedsthe 75th? 47 is halfway from 20 to 75.

Dr. Information

Babo, thats not anything new that I posted, that information has been all over the net and on every single media outlet since the 2012 election when Obama said the rich are not paying their fair share and then had to retract the statement because he was completely wrong.

Google it, I'll leave that up to you.

Sandumpy Proud

Comrade Smith did they teach you this in Marine Corps boot camp? How to surrender? How pathetic are you?

sugar

Yes Taxpayers just pull yourself up by the bootstraps, tighten your belts, don't let a little adversity get you down, suck it up and give the city more money, even though your wages buy what they did in 1989.
It's the good people in government that deserve the raises, this year and I believe the next two years have already been promised to them.
If you don't they won't resurface streets, won't trim the trees, won't pull the weeds in the park! They will scare all the elderly and infirmed by telling them they will all perish because the squad will take too long, the police will not get there to save them from an evil doer.
We are held hostage by the relentless greed of the public sector unions.
If the city has the money to promise pay raises 3 years in advance than they have enough money.

Mr. 25 Cents

So, if union employees get raises, the city's budget needs to be cut? That means that any organization that has enough money to gives its employees raises has too much money. Of course, if all of those banks that have been giving their employees raises have too much money, the only way to fix that is to increase their taxes, and send that money to local governments. I like the way Sugar thinks.

sugar

The city does not produce it's own revenue, it funds itself on the production of others. It is NOT the city's money it is the taxpayers money. The city gives itself a raise on he back of the taxpayer then says oops! We need a little more so we can provide to you what you give us the money to provide.
Honestly, no wonder the country is in the shape it is.

JT Adams St

Money for raises always come from somewhere: higher prices, higher interest rates, higher fees, etc. Your argument is that simply because a business or government gives raises, it must be charging too much (in prices or taxes), and no business should ever gives raises unless its price is zero. Communist Russia used to have an economy something like that.

sugar

Quit spinning, gove gets money from me, I say NO MORE. When it starts to generate it's own income I don't give a rats behind if it gives itself raises.

Nemesis

JT, you forget that individuals may opt out of doing business with a private entity, but not paying taxes. A business's prices are set by supply and demand and other market forces. Taxes do not function in that manner.

knowitall

Get a job Sugar.

sugar

You are just like mobsters of old, they would go into the businesses and say, we will protect you from bad guys ( basically us) for a small fee. We all know of course it was never quite enough. In good times it was tolerated but in bad times not so much.

The Big Dog's back

Yes sugar, get a job. Mooch.

Julie R.

Cedar Point takes the lead on admissions tax? Considering how Cedar Point's attorneys are the Murrays, wouldn't it be a safer bet to say the Murrays came up with this blackmail deal that Cedar Point will support a 1% increase in the admissions tax, but only if the voters in the city of Sandusky approve a .25% increase in the city's income tax rate?

Sounds almost identical to the blackmail crap that comes from the schools & their attorneys all the time with their threats how they're going to have to cut out sports, etc., etc., etc. if the voters don't approve a levy.

The Big Dog's back

You haven't moved yet?

sugar

Exact same thing.

gene44870

Why dont Cedar Point keep there hands out of our paychecks. And the city stop being so dependent on Cedar Point .? This B.S through. and through. Who in the hell is running this city ?

knowitall

Where is the city going to get money? Think about that and if you have an answer rather than whining, let us know.

Sugarr

The city is going to get the money when we pass the .25% income tax but as a bonus CF is going to match that contribution.
Just like parts of Cleveland Sandusky is on a upswing and business will come and invest in the city just like CF is doing.

Vote YES!! In November I know I am!!

YoMamma

The city could start replacing old water and sewer lines and repave the streets. The water and sewer budget is HUGE. Save at least $25,000.00 in losses by closing Mills Creek.

knowitall

We pay for water and sewer through our monthly bills. They should have the money.

Dr. Information

CP is Sandusky's lifeline and they are only open 8 months out of the year. To put it plainly......they are paying more than their fair share. Its time for residents and others to pitch in a little.

Babo

Again, facts please.

Nemesis

Fact: CP contributes more than a third of the city budget.
Fact: The single biggest line item in the budget is police payroll, and the police spend most of their time keeping people who are NOT CP visitors from killing, robbing, raping and selling drugs to each other.
Fact: Most CP visitors traverse less than 4 miles out of at least 100 miles of city roads.

Sugarr

Fact if the .25% income tax passes CF will match it.
Sounds like a win, win for Sandusky

Fact the $500,000.00 is e annual thing not contingent on the income tax passing

I for one vote YES!!!!

sugar

We pay enough.
I was on the causeway this morning and Sandusky and the bay is stunning! Why are we broke?
Because we have been mismanaged by the same people over and over who maintain their lifestyles at the expense of taxpayers. They have driven all the good people out of the city by catering to the lowest common denominator. Hence crappy property values, unkempt properties, rentals galore, crime, drugs, on an on.
City pols have mismanaged our money, I want to see real change in city gov before I give them a dime. It's not starting out well with Mr. Wobser.

knowitall

So, you can afford to go to CP?

Julie R.

Sort of off the topic but not really. It shows how they all work together for the benefit of each other.

The probate court judge Beverly McGookey, with the help of Erie County's favorite rent-a-judge Cirigliano, seals the records (illegal) in the probate estates of Dr. Baxter and his wife, which means their property at 2109 Cedar Point Road can't be sold through normal channels because a bank would require a title search and no title company around would ever give out title insurance if they are prohibited from searching records in probate .......... so Cedar Fair LP (Dick Kinzel?) buys the house for $1,310,000.00 under a Fiduciary Deed, hence no going through a bank.

sugar

Not off topic, it's all the same old people scratching the same old backs.

Julie R.

You better believe it's the same old people scratching the same old backs. It's been going on for years, hasn't it? What gets me is ---- while they're busy helping their rich buddies line their pockets even further, they're also busy getting a sick kick out of having the power to criminally cheat the average citizens over.

Couldn't you just see the probate court giving financial instituions two years after the death of a non-average citizen like Dick Kinzel to get everything left from trust contracts criminally changed right before his death out of his name before some snake Lorain County attorney files a forged Will prepared by Kinzel's attorneys, like what was done after my mother's death? Couldn't you just see the common pleas court flaunting in the face of a Murray that the court didn't have to follow the law ~ didn't have to put the property of a deceased Murray that was fraudulently transferred before her death back into her estate so it could be sold through normal channels with a clear title ~ and selling it at a scam sheriff sale with one of the Murray's to it defrauded, like what was done to my mother's property?

Why people in Erie County are satisfied to be represented by judges like that is beyond me.

The Big Dog's back

Why haven't you moved?

sugar

Julie, because the city is filled with morons like ^^^^ the one above .

WhatTheHeck

If all you so called Republicans on here would get up off of your lazy duffs and ride the public transportation to the polling site this fall the Dems wouldn't win the elections.