BLOG: Why I support the 'mosque,' and why it matters

Tom Jackson
Sep 2, 2010

 

The controversy over the "Ground Zero mosque" has become a clarifying moment in recent political history, when we get to find out whether conservatives and Republicans care about anything except winning the next election. If you've paid attention, the short answer is that many of them don't.

We found out only a few months ago that many Democrats and liberals don't really care about the First Amendment if that pesky "freedom of expression" stuff might arguably give Republicans an advantage. Now we're finding that while Republicans love to give lip service to "liberty," many of them don't care about freedom of religion or private property rights.

More on that in a moment, but first a few words on the controversy.

You'll notice that I put square quotes around the words "Ground Zero mosque" in my first paragraph.

That's because it's not at Ground Zero, e.g., the site of the terrorist attack on Sept. 11, 2001. It's two blocks away. 

And it's not a mosque, either. The proposed project is an Islamic community center, similar to a YMCA. It would include a prayer room — a "mosque," if you will — but it's also supposed to have basketball hoops.

These facts are important, because if you took the rhetoric of the opponents at face value, you'd believe that a huge mosque, complete with minarets, is going to be built over the ruins of the World Trade Center.

The whole controversy is a manufactured one. And if someone wanted to build a mosque, so what? In this country, we don't tell people they aren't allowed to build a church, or a synagogue, or a temple, on their own property, if they are following the relevant building codes and zoning laws.

What I think is most interesting about the controversy is what is says about Republicans.

But first, let's beat up on Democrats a little.

On Jan. 21 this year, the U.S. Supreme Court voted to uphold the First Amendment in a case called Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. Specifically, the court voted 5-4 to strike down a provision of the law that blocked a nonprofit corporation, Citizens United, from airing a film that criticized Hillary Clinton.

For me, the scandal of the decision was that only a bare majority of the nation's highest court could bring themselves to strike down political censorship. 

But that's not how many Democrats saw it. Many have campaigned for new laws to overturn the decision, on the ground that removing restrictions on corporate political spending might aid Republicans. Almost alone among prominent liberal commentators, Glenn Greenwald put principle over partisan political advantage and explained that the decision was correct.

But now Republicans are in the spotlight. And we are now seeing the spectacle of prominent Republican politicians who favor freedom of religion (if it's for Southern Baptists, in Georgia) and property rights (in cases where it's politically convenient). 

Opinion polls show that many Americans oppose the so-called Ground Zero mosque. If a line of political attack is poll-tested, that's apparently all that matters.

So we have Newt Gingrich declaring that Cordoba House can't be built "so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia." There's no word yet on whether Gingrich favors banning the Nation magazine until North Korean newspapers agree to run his op-ed pieces.

And we have the Wall Street Journal's James Taranto, who anchors his argument about Democratic tax policies by referring to his opponent as a "Ground Zero mosque champion." Why resort to reasoned argument when a smear will do?

 

 

 

Comments

6079 Smith W

 

@ Mr. Jackson:    And the parameters of “Ground Zero” are determined how exactly? Wasn’t that building damaged on 9-11?   Euphemistically calling it a "community center” reminds me of the old Bolshevik technique of "word magic"; change the name so that the rubes are more likely to accept it.    

The Dems like to throw around the premise that the majority should rule; the last I heard, approx. 70% of the American people would like it built elsewhere.

Sam

Once again the Registerag lacking the facts.  Its not Republican against, Democrats for.  How do you explain the opposition by Senator Reid (D) Nev., Governor and Ex-DNC Chair Dean and the lack of support by other dems for a compromise by  Governor Patterson of New York (D) to move the mosque.  The largest protest against the mosque was staged by the democrat controlled construction workers union.  Let Mr Jackson explain the support of the Mayor of New York for the mosque while he does nothing to help a Greek Orthodox Church to rebuilt that had been next to ground zero for over 80 years. Let it not be said that the Registerag allows the facts to get in the way of a their liberal agenda.

Tom Jackson

 Sam,

The opposition to the project has been led by Republicans. The statements by the likes of Sen. Reid are meant to protect the Democrats politically. It's certainly not Harry Reid who brought the matter up. Yes, there have been Republicans willing to speak up for religious freedom, but not many.

Why am I obligated to explain everything the mayor of New York City does? And how does my column relate to the Register's supposed "liberal agenda"? 

Duhast

Puritans, Quakers, Jews, Sikhs and many more have come come to America for religious freedom.  They came for the right to build thier churches wherever they pleased.  If they are American citizens, then they have every right under the constitution to build thier community center and worship as they please.  Come on people.  We are better than this.  Many of us wouldn't be here if it wasn't for America's religious tolerance.

 

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

Chung Lee

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained personal attacks. Discussion Guidelines

goofus

Every time Duhast posts, I hear the sounds of Kumbaya being sung by all liberals passing around the doobie. Religous freedom? Don't the muslims have their own countries? Persecuted muslims? How can that be when in the countries of the Congo,Myanmar,the Philippines, Columbia,Sudan,Uganda, Thailand, and Turkey Jihadists are killing christians and other religions in order to take over the government. Do you suppose Sharia law has anything to do with it? You know that kinky set of laws that allows sex with children, the stoning of women, the genital mutiliation of women shackling children then strapping bombs on their back. Look, we let Abu Bin Yoder and the amish in so what's wrong. By the way, Winston, the right rear landing gear of one of the planes fell on that building.  For a hoot people check out the Religion Of Peace.com.

Chung Lee

Columbia and Thailand are Muslim nations?  Who told you that..... Glenn Beck? 

Duhast

Have you read Leviticus? Deuteronomy? 

  Leviticus 25:44-46 (King James Version)  44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.  45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.  46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. Deuteronomy 13  1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,  2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;  3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.  4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.  5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.  6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;  7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;  8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:  9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.  10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.  
swiss family

  this issue really is a sad statement on the state of our country.This great country was founded on, on many, many people have fought and given their lives for this nation to be free.. and free, is an absolute.. you can NOT have limited freedom, we either are free, or we are not, and proudly, we are a free nation.

 One of our freedoms is the freedom of speech and the freedom of expression, and it is in that glorious freedom that we suddenly feel  the fear.. As long as it is "our" accepted religion,and our accepted customs, we are all for freedom, but if someone who is also an American citizen, such as we are , wants to display their individual free choices, we panic?? and in trying to "hold on to" what we see as our freedom, it is merely  just an example of disguised conformism.. where we think that everyone else ought to think and act like us???

 

  I do , and will always hold a special place in my heart, and memory for all of the people who were affected both directly and indirectly on that fateful day, but to blame an entire culture, or religion because of a handful of  extremists, and giving a "knee jerk" reaction  in trying to control them  to conform to our standards, is really allowing our own freedoms to be taken away as well.I hats the fact that people burn and destroy our flag.. it actually makes me feel sick to my stomach to see.. but if we are going to preserve our freedom, and our status as a free society, we have to allow everyone to be able to express their approval, and disapproval of their interpretation of the status of the country, otherwise,  we truly will have allowed the "terrorists" to win.. we will have allowed them to convince ourselves that taking away some of our very own freedoms, will somehow make us more free??

Americanonly

Freedom... yes we have freedom in this country but even each of our freedoms has it's limits.  The forefathers of this country did not mean that "burning the American Flag" should be a freedom of speach!  They probably never thought anyone in America would be so disgusting.  The freedom of Religion... our forefathers were Christians and worshiped "GOD" and never thought we would be a nation that would worship false gods.... When we allow a false religion in.........I guarantee you God will NOT be pleased with our country and the blessings we've had for so many years will start to disappear.  

Also your comment on "handfull of extremists".... look what the muslims have done in other countries.  Look at the problems they are causing in other countries, not just ours.  If they were such a peaceful group then why do they insist on causing so much grief by wanting to build in that spot in NY.  I will tell you why, ...they want a monument to the MUSLIMS ... they could care less on how Americans feel about that location.

In The Light

 

Duhast quoted "LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."  Your quotes  from Leviticus and Deuteronomy are to the Biblical Hebrews, only. They were being reminded as to who brought them out of bondage from Egypt.

Goofus for your information "Kum Bah Yah" "Kumbayah"  is an African-American Hebrew (YAH) spiritual song from the 1930s, in the Gullah dialect meaning "Come By My GOD(Yah). Similarly, Halleluyah is similar in that "Hallelu" means "praise" and "Yah" (the Hebrew name for GOD), thus you have Praise Yah.

6079 Smith W said "The Dems like to throw around the premise that the majority should rule; the last I heard, approx. 70% of the American people would like it built elsewhere." I thought the Constitution determines who should rule, and it does not make any referrence to Democrat, Republican, Liberal, or Conservative. Just in case you did not know the Constitution made provisions for the majority and the minority. You do understand the differences between the house and the senate. One is based on propportional representation, and the other is meant to moderate the majority by giving equal representation to the less populated, and the greater populated states. So I would observe that it is not only the Democrats "throwing premises around." Your point about 70% can you prove that? Do you understand that if you buy into the notion that those Muslims options are at the pleasure of "Your" defined majority, or otherwise that you have made a case for more government intervention in what should be a private decision. Now, isn't that something that you "so-called" conservative always blame on th "so-called" liberals?

Duhast

American, you are wrong About The founding fathers. You are simply projecting your personal opinion by creating revisionist history. Heck, Jefferson didn’t even believe Jesus was divine. By the same mentality, we should not allow any Christian churches to be built within 8 blocks of abortion clinics that were bombed or shot up by Christian terrorists.

This was a non-issue until the media latched on and made it one. They were not flaunting anything. Had cable news not hyped it up, they would have built it and nobody would have known or cared.

In the Light, Amazing how someone could possible take text from your holy book out of context.

6079 Smith W

 

  Under the First Amendment, most religious demominations have the right to practice, but the location of their places of worship is not guaranteed.   The Dem's premise that the majority should rule? Seems like I heard and read a lot of that nonsense coming out of ‘em in the aftermath of the 2000 presidential election with Mr. Gore having the numerical majority of votes cast.  

BTW: When Rastafarians can practice their religion as they see fit, then perhaps there will be true religious freedom in the U.S.

Remember: Governments cannot "give" rights, they can only take them away.

 

 

6079 Smith W

 

@ Duhast:   Regarding the Bible: IMO, a few of the more interesting groups are the Christian Scientists and their offshoots like Unity.   They treat the Bible as metaphor and not as a literal work. It puts an interesting spin on the verses when reading the text.   There are some in the Muslim world who approach the Koran in a similar fashion.  

With either of the works, they seek to personalize the text, which makes certain passages less overtly hostile in their context, i.e. "to kill" means to kill a desire in one's self.

There is much "truth" in the Bible, but is the Bible "true"? Therein lies an extremely contentious issue.

Kramer

Putting the legality of the argument aside, this is clearly an attempt to give the US the finger by our "peace-loving Islamist brothers."   

This is a great idea.  Let's essentially erect an Islamist monument at the site of the largest attack on the US in history by Islamists.  Why stop there?  Let's set up a mosque at the Pentagon and an "Islamist Center for Peace and Neighborhood Unity" at the United flight 93 site in Pennsylvania.

For you politically correct, "Gee, don't I look enlightened because I'm so centered that I argue for Muslim rights no matter how obnoxious or hurtful to my country" folks, I hope you feel righteous and get a puffy chest from your self-perceived brilliance. 

We've become a weak, politically correct mess of a country.

Americanonly

Duhast... you seem to want to throw God's word around...  Read all of the Bible and you will understand exactly what God expects when it comes to worship.........and how he did not tolerate the worship of idols and false gods....          I will not debate the issue with you because you can't argue with a Liberal..........it's like having a conversation that never goes anywhere but in one of their ears and out the other and the only thing coming out of a liberals mouth is rambling.   Nothing of any substance.

Now I'm sure you will come back with some remark but It won't be worth a hang nail.   FYI... hang nails are something you get rid of...........

 

pepenik99

The minarets will come later after they have firmly established themselves in the area.   Others will follow as is evidenced in the Detroit area.  There will be outburst of loyalty towards their homelands rather than to the U.S. as they promised when they said the Pledge of Alligence to this country;(Pledge of Loyalty I would rather call it) to get footholds into this country.  Future generations of ill will could establish staging points from this area.  This has already been discussed and forgotten only too soon.   And not to forget that the latest version of the Koran teaches their  followers to withhold any truths in need to promote their religion. To tell it one way and then do it the other way...They are right on target

SamAdams

Americanonly, you talk about the worship of "false" gods, implying that Allah is one of them. Please permit me to point out to you that MOST religions bills themselves as the "true" faith, and claim to worship the "one" true god. Obviously, not all of them can be right. Muslims believe YOU'RE wrong just as much as you believe THEY are.

Duhast, you're right: The Cordoba group DOES have the RIGHT to build on their own property. That doesn't make it RIGHT any more than building a KKK meeting house next to a predominantly black church or school is okay. No one I've heard has suggested there's no rights involved here, but rather respect, sensitivity, etc. and so on. You also spend a great deal of time quoting the Bible. Well, many Muslims can quote you chapter and verse of THEIR holy book, too, and among their across-the-board tenets is death to "infidels" (i.e. anybody who isn't Muslim). Not all Muslims go on some jihad to fulfill that tenet, but it's there and a whole lot of even the "moderate" Muslims believe it as much as a whole lot of them are beginning to demand sharia law (and if that doesn't scare the crap out of you, you don't know what it is).

6079 Smith W, you talk about "majority rule." While your example is pertinent, I'd like to add that the very idea of "majority rule" TERRIFIES me. The Founders deliberately added the Bill of Rights to the Constitution to protect against what they termed "the tyranny of the majority." After all, if we had TRUE majority rule, we'd all have to be Christian and abortion would be illegal. While it's also true the "community center" (still a mosque by any other name) wouldn't be built on the proposed site, and we'd FINALLY control our borders, pure democracy is very much a double-edged sword. That's probably why the Founders created a REPUBLIC rather than a pure democracy. Kudos to them for something sadly lacking 200+ years later: Good sense!

Kramer, you write: "Putting the legality of the argument aside, this is clearly an attempt to give the US the finger by our "peace-loving Islamist brothers."  EXACTLY.

swiss family

  "Americanonly"  there you have it.. you are assuming that what you believe and what you think , and which religion and which God is the real one, only goes to prove the point that there is intolerance of things that are not acceptable according to the standards set forth by the judge. I can assure you that all of the followers of "Allah" and "Buddha" and the likes would argue with you who actually has the attention of a "real" God, and which are under a clouded misnomer..if you could prove once and for all which God is real, you would be one of the most insightful, and knowledgeable people on earth..

   either we are a free country, or we are not, and according to your limits and standards you seem to prefer toi think and act like we are, as long as everyone agrees, and lives their lives with your approval.. sorry but that is NOT how freedom works.

  as for the "Mosque" we should look at facts,, the facts are that this building is an old Burlington coat factory that has been empty for some time, waiting and available to anyone who can finance it, and develop it into whatever a free market, and free society will  prosper in.. also let us look at the other fixtures around the ground zero sight.. is it all a memorial , and a shrine devoted to the "hallowed ground" no it is not.. there are currently porn shops, adult movie houses, all kinds of restaurants, and shops, including many with a "western, or "Muslim" theme..along with a multitude of other ethnic shops.  the truth is, the exact location of "ground zero" should be sacred ground, and we as a nation should have already developed it into either a memorial site, or a new , stronger, indestructible site for bigger, towers to show the world that we will never be crushed by the terror released on us by anyone...but we have done nothing.. so who's fault is it that someone, anyone  wants to locate anywhere near there.. in a business sense, the site has become a drawing place, or sadly a "tourist site" and anyone who knows business knows that those areas are usually overrun with trinket sellers, and people waiting to capitalize on a tragic even , for their own profit..so there should have been a master plan , long ago for this area, and the perimeter surrounding it, but since no one did anything, in a free country, protected by our own laws, and constitution.. they have every right to put whatever they see fit.. even if it is In bad taste, in a free society, of which we pride ourselves.. this is the blessing and the curse of such freedom

 

Mime Bloggling

 

*Thought I'd just throw this into the mix of inflated rhetoric. Mime

 Sharia Stimulus: US Taxpayers Funding Shovel-Ready Mosques Abroad

George Savage · Aug. 27 at 8:54pm

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986.

There’s a lot that isn’t moving in the United States right now and government money is flowing like water in this Recovery Summer. But who knew that under Barack Obama similar subsidies would be extended to mosque maintenance in foreign lands? Caroline May at the Daily Caller reports:

Just a cursory search of the term “mosque” on the State Department’s list of “projects” reveals 26 examples of federal funds going to fund construction, renovation, and rehabilitation of various mosques abroad. The benefiting countries include Bulgaria, Pakistan, Mali, Tunisia, Afghanistan, Benin, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Albania, Egypt, Tunisia, the Maldives, Yemen, Turkmenistan, Tanzania, Uganda, Azerbaijan, Sudan, Serbia and Montenegro.

Money being fungible, wouldn’t it be interesting if some of the Islamist funding provided by the State Department’s U.S. Ambassadors Fund for Cultural Preservation freed up other foreign cash later donated to our own Ground Zero Mosque project?

I guess that wall of separation thing so beloved by liberals only applies to churches.

However, American Islamic Forum for Democracy's Dr. Zuhdi Jasser objects:

“We have always felt this type of outreach is completely ineffective and that ultimately we have to approach it like the Cold War where we are fighting an ideology and we have to be poignantly open about what part of political Islam we are trying to change and modify,” Jasser said. “If we are going to have this long war of ideas we cannot fund these religious institutions. We can fund anti-Islamist institutions based in liberty.”

I think Dr. Jasser has it right. If we are going to subsidize Islam abroad, shouldn't we at least direct the funds towards friends of liberty?

  http://ricochet.com/conversations/Sharia-Stimulus-US-Taxpayers-Funding-Shovel-Ready-Mosques-Abroad/(comment)/20033
Kimo

 

December 7th 1941, Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. September 2nd 2010, Japanese have a car dealership in every city in the US, most fly an American flag on site. I won’t mention Hitler, Germans, German autos. Would you all feel better if they were building an Auto Plant?
brutus smith

 ameri says "I will not debate the issue with you because you can't argue with a Liberal..........it's like having a conversation that never goes anywhere but in one of their ears and out the other and the only thing coming out of a liberals mouth is rambling.   Nothing of any substance."

Is ramblings the right wingnut code word for facts?

 

Repubs have nothing, nada, zilch.

brutus smith

 Good examples Kimo. The right wingnut brain is saying "Does not compute, Does not compute". ROFLMAO!

 

Repubs have nothing, nada, zilch.

brownbear

From the begining our Nation was greated on religion.   A lot of religions fled to other countries, for what they believed in.  Some came and shoved religion down the throats of the indians. The United States was founded on the rights to carry arms,  freedom of speach and freedom of relgion.

6079 Smith W

 

@ Mr. Jackson:   Thanks for joining in.   So everyone who opposes the location of the “community center” is a Repub? How is that not a fallacy?   Since a reported 70% of the American population is against the location – that’s a lot of Repubs!   As for Mr. Reid’s statement being Dem political cover – that is your opinion. What does the term “political cover” mean exactly? How does that work? We’re kinda against it?   Haven’t others Dems like Gov. Patterson and Mr. Dean expressed opposition to its planned location? Reads like the Dems are overflowing with “political cover.”   Where’s Mr. Sanders? Did you take his place? (Just kidding.) I thought that you were more libertarian; was I wrong?  

OK – raised Baptist right?

 

Cross

Tom, generally, you try to stay above the fray but your arguments do not hold merit.I'm surprised to see you providing cover for Brutus and the moveon/UAW propaganda machine. You seem surprised politicians are using political issues to their advantage.  Look at it from a common sense perspective instead of just following your political leanings.

I don't see anyone arguing that the Islamic Center is illegal. What has been brought up is how building an Islamic Center 600 feet away from where Islamic terrorists destroyed billions of dollars worth of buildings and killed thousands of Americans is in poor taste.

Unlike Japanese or Germans who do not condone or support past regimes or actions, there is a huge contingent in the Muslim world who still support the 9/11 attacks, as can be seen by any camera in the West Bank or Pakistan or by just chatting with many of the tribal Wahabi or Hamas leaders, who would be happy to head to the Islamic center and say a prayer of thanks for the destruction of the Great Satan and for more Jews to be killed in their just intifada.

Should the federal government be involved in stopping a building on private property? Absolutely not. Should our elected officails speak their peace regarding their personal opposition to a Muslim prayer room two blocks away from ground zero and at a time when so many in the Muslim world live in ignorance, fear, and a desire to kill based on religious intolerance? Definitely.

Kramer

It's simple for me.

When Muslims start turning in the terrorists among them and reject violence, I will then consider them like any other religion and drop the suspicion.  When they join the rest of the world community and actively root out the dirt that believes in slaughtering inncoents, then I will welcome them to town.

As long as they continue to play coy and say one thing in public and another thing in their mosques, then I will continue to have no trust in them.  

To pretend that this is "just another religion" is blatant, politically-correct stupidity. 

mikel

i think the us should let the japs put up a japanese memorial at pearl harbor and hopefully we can put one up at the site of the atomic bomb in nagasuki.

Kimo

re:Unlike Japanese or Germans who do not condone or support past regimes or actions

The "Goal" then and the "Goal" now was/is America's wealth, they won, we lost, we now need to borrow money from them to pay for our mistakes.

If the "Goal is to control America", build a cheap car, Americans will buy them, get the dollars, control the economy, control, control, control..................

Chung Lee

Cross, Chung Lee commend you for telling us the about the common sense approach to what others should think..    Interesting others opiniions are influced by liberal propaganda but yet you tell us about the lives and motivations of people from countries that you have never been?  Surely, you have obtained your enlightenment from unbiased sources.

  Chung Lee wonders exactly what is a "huge contingent" when describing a religion followed by 1.6 billion people?  Sounds like a little bit of a generalization.  Nice projection "when so many in the Muslim world live in ignorance, fear, and a desire to kill based on religious intolerance?".  With views such as yours..... is sounds like Christian can be substituted for Muslim in that statement.  Chung Lee thinks there are more than a couple hypocrites here. 

Bailey

"America is a Christian Nation" Jefferson

In Pennsylvania, NO ONE could run for a political office unless they had proof of being baptised aas a CHRISTIAN and was IN GOOD STANDING with the CHRISTIAN CHURCH

Being that Jefferson and others accepted and believed that this nation was a CHRISTIAN nation, they wrote the constitution that forbid the Government from influencing the CHURCH, not the other way around. Sadly the liberals have rewritten history as they always do, and proclaim the 'separation of Church and State" as being in the constitution, IT IS NOT, its in the SOVIET CONSTITUTION not ours! Our constitution says that the government shall NOT infringe on our freedom to express and live out our Christian beliefs. A letter was written to Jefferson concerning the 'separation of church and state' and Jefferson stated that the wall of separation was concerning the GOVERNMENTS ROLE and not that of the church, in other words, the Government can NOT influence the Church but the CHURCH has the responsibility to influence and demand morality and proper government from the Church. Sadly, the liberals who twist everything to fit into their unacceptable moral code has twisted even this simple truth.

Concerning the Mosque, its sad that the writer can't think outside his little box. Why didn't he address the reason that Islam is building this mosque? Why is it that Islam ALWAYS builds a monument/mosque where they had a huge impact in destroying the 'infidel'? Because its a MEMORIAL to them. Listen fools, READ THE QURAN, its perfectly acceptable and expected for Muslims to LIE if they feel it will advance Islam, READ IT, ITS MOHAMIDS WORDS NOT MINE>

What a bunch of idiots in American, we've allowed the Trojan Horse to enter into our nation and everything keeps saying they have good intentions and 'Look how pretty they are' refering to the nice horsey looking peacefull, while inside they are preparing to murder your entire family.

Americanonly

Bailey...finally someone who tells it LIKE IT IS ... no lies, no mixed messages... just PLAIN TRUTH... It's really refreshingl to know there are still some GREAT MINDS out there who speak the truth.  You are right on about  the Trojan Horse... we certainly have let it in our nation...  and we will pay the price one day.

6079 Smith W

 

@ Mr. Jackson:   Allow me to re-phrase: So everyone who condemns the location of the “community center” has been “exploited” by the Repubs?   And why exactly do the Dems feel the need for “political cover” on this issue?   From my experience and study, you are correct about libertarian beliefs regarding free speech and property rights.   Unfortunately, we do not live in a libertarian society – it is a mixed economy.   In this mixed economy, not-for-profits receive govt. subsidies that are paid for (stolen actually) by taxpayers like you and me.   For or against our wishes, you and I have a vested economic interest in the building of this mosque.   Lastly: Nothing gets built in NYC without the support of the unions. If the construction locals don’t want this built – it will not be built.   Has anyone polled the unions on their degree of support for the location of the “community center”?  
6079 Smith W

 

"The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."   Communist V.I. Lenin said it, but it would appear that the Muslims are working to perfect it.   All organized religions are based on oppression; it’s just a matter of degrees of severity.  
Cross

When your opinion follows lockstep with the DNC talking points, albeit in an attempt to be subtle, then it surely is not your own opinion, Tom. 

Chung/Brutus, nice to see you redirecting my valid points into a personal attack. Good job! Perhaps for an encore you can continue to use a racist Asian stereotype to complain about others spouting generalities. Oh, wait....

Bailey, while I agree with your assertation that America was founded by Christians, the whole basis of our republic is tolerance and the ability to accept people of different faiths. The separation of church and state is a DMZ that should be kept intact, built to allow our melting pot experiment to proceed. So what if Muslims lie to advance their religion? It's no different from all our politicians who lie to advance their personal power, or the rabid, vapid followers like Brutus/Chung who are just propaganda spouters with their allegiance to the DNC and it's marching orders. The main focus should be freedom, be it freedom to try and build a mosque in a controversial place, or to oppose said mosque because one thinks it's placement is in poor taste.

Mime Bloggling

 

Of Mosques and Men: Reflections on the Ground Zero Mosque

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R...

 

 

The Muslim Brotherhood "Project"

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/...

Theocracy on the 100-Year-Plan

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/...

 

There's much more to it than simple politics..so much more. Mime

Chung Lee

Funny a person who accuses others of spewing DNC propaganda seems to tow the Republican party line opinion.  Too funny.  Apparently the irony of it all is missed by the blinding ignorance and arrogance.

 

Teabaggers are traitors that hate the Constitution

Chung Lee

Chung Lee

Cross.... valid points?  You have to be kidding.  You want to characterize 1.6 billion people with the actions of a radical few?  Sounds pretty stupid but you are entitled to your opinion regardless of how ill informed you are.

Cross

Everyone who votes for any GOP person is ill informed right? Anyone insulting millions of people with a pejorative statement is wrong, eh? Er, might want to check your signature there, chief.

I know the GOP and DNC are all politicians, out to win. I find them to be 90% of the same thing, just leveraging fringe issues to get cash and special interest money and to get elected. I'm glad you are a diehard Dem and feel the need to fight for your right to Barbara Boxer, Chung.

Sadly, all your posts here are attacks and ad hominems with an agenda. They never raise actual discussions, just cut and paste from media matters or other sites that share your point of view. This one is no different. It's not just Chung/Brutus, there are others who do tow the GOP line. I'd guess Brutus and Chung are the same person. Every post the two/one of you makes is to attack someone who disagrees with your politics. 

I personally crave good, intelligent discussions with an eye towards how to get results. Sadly, the partisans on both sides make it tough. Chung/Brutus on the attack since the GOP are the enemy. The Rush/Beck crowd responding in fashion.

I don't post here too often because it's tiresome to weed through all the silliness.

I'd love an energy discussion, a good Tom Jackson article on Net Neutrality, or a real forum discussion on the situation in Afghanistan. Sadly, we won't see any of those because they require actual opinions instead of simplistic cut and paste articles derived from other regurgitated sources like this silly mosque discussion which has been on CNN, MSNBC, and Fox the last two weeks. All we see in this thread is posturing.

Anyways, life continues. Hope everyones day is good, and we're ready for some Earl rain.

swiss family

it seems as if there are many, many posters here who are blindly throwing out statements based on fear and misconceptions, without ever thinking about how they are being controlled, and by throwing out their statements , are also trying to influence and control the thoughts and feelings, and actions of others.

  first of all to anyone who blindly throws out their statistics, which obviously have a somewhat shady  origin, and make outrageous statements like "70% of the American population" say anything.. to make a statement like that it would be obvious that everyone in the country has been asked their opinion? right?? well has anyone here been contacted for their opinions on this?? has anyone , had any family member, neighbor friend,  anyone that they know who has officially been asked to be a part of an official survey??? they plain and simple and honest answer is NO.. how can that be..?? they seem to throw out statistics that are obviously made up, hoping that the people who are not able to think on their own will  grab that misinformation being fed to them, and boldly throw it out there like it is an undisputed fact.. well it is not a fact.. it is pure fiction, and twisted in a way to get the results and the slant that whichever side  threw their slanted views out there first.. and they are relying on sheep type, non thinking followers....all I can say is if you  recognize yourself in there .. they have already defeated you

  then there are the "facts" thrown out there  making it seem like the "Muslims" are the only "group" that can be photographed and seen  to be in a revolting display against  other cultures, which somehow makes them threatening??? well if "they" are here taking pictures of all the weak, scared, sheepish Americans and their fearful revolt against them.. wouldn't it be hard to determine who is the real "Outraged""crazy""Fearful" group of people??to them I am sure we are the ones out of control...

 

   I also love that some posters seem to know what the reasoning and motivation is  for the actions of others..if you actually know and understand people and cultures so well, please help us all and tell us where the next attempted attack will be, and what would be their reasoning, and their "goal" in doing so... it could save us millions on our defense strategies, and you would be the new hero... or is it that your vision is perfect AFTER something happens.. but you like the rest are blind before hand??

sadly I see so many people who have jumped to immediate classifications of people and cultures.. I have to remind you that anytime you  gather people into groups, instead of individuals, it is a form of prejudice.. and that is usually a bad move.. there are good and bad people of all types in all cultures and all sects, and all religions, and all religions, etc.. if this is what we have had to do to protect ourselves.. and we have  reached the low level of  being comfortable with  generalities.. then perhaps the terrorists have already won, or are at least making huge strides..

 

 I would also have to say that whenever you see anything on television.. remember that they are playing up to the camera, and the reporter is sensationalizing  their story.. remember when we had  rising waters several years ago on elm, pleasant,  and water streets?? according to what was shown on television, you would have thought that the entire town was wiped out from the raging flood waters, when in fact. on a percentage scale, probably less than 1% of the town was closed off because of the water.. but to the people who don't know better, norwalk should have been  wiped out... the point being also when you see screaming and ranting and cheering  "robed" citizens from  other countries.. it is more than likely a small, small percentage of the population.. but that is not what you are led to believe

kURT

What was the 1rst reason people came to America? Freedom of religion. Many went to escape the Catholic Church. Even at the start there were problems. Salem Witch trials to name a few.

Are all Catholics bad? No. How many muslims do we know? Are they all bad?

I just hate trash. Trash comes in all shapes sizes & colours.

Treat others how you'd like 2be treated.

Pastor Ron

Those muslims are a bunch of close minded, unintelligent and uninformed people and not like those who follow the only true religion........CHRISTIANITY!!!  They hate us for our freedom and they want to spread their evil religion.  I am tired of the liberal apologists who say that 19 terrorists don't represent 1.6 billion people.  The only difference between those 19 and the 1.6 billion is opportunity!  Their religion is full of hate and I am tired of those liberals think they are so smart pointing out the couple of acts of violence in the Bible without understanding that there is a difference..... the Bible is the truth and not some foreign religion.  Those liberals need to be more tolerant and educate themselves like the religious majority!

Sam

I am against the building of the mosque only because I think moderate Islam is losing an opportunity to show good faith and healing by building at another location, they clearly have the right to built anywhere they choose.  Pastor Ron I strongly disagree with your view, considering Judaism is the core religion for both Christians and Muslims, maybe its you who could use a good dose of tolerance.  Don't be surprised to meet many faiths in heaven if you make it there.  Throughout history how many people of all  faiths have been killed in the name of God?

brutus smith

 cross, since when did upholding our Constitution become a "political leaning?

 

Repubs have nothing, nada, zilch.

Cross

I see this is the account Chung/Brutus use when they want to discuss things without ad hominems. Regardless, it is a nice post.

Many are quick to lump all Christians with the Westboro Baptist crazies, which are one family, but attack those who question the legitimate issues some have with Islamic countries and extremism, and it's just anti-American!

A majority of Muslims in Islamic countries support most of Al Qaeda's goals and support Palestinian intifada. This is not throwing out a random statement, but is a fact based on polling.

Granted video's showing Palestinian's dancing in the street post 9/11 is pure showmanship, but the fact a good percentage support Al Qaeda and consider the US an enemy is not hyperbole.

Many Arab nations have been shown to overtly support Al Qaeda and subscribe to the Wahabi role.

Iran is Sunni and an enemy of Al Qaeda, but with friends like that and their support for Hezbollah, who needs enemies?

There are no Christian theocracies pushing for Sharia law, caliphates, female subjugation and mutiliation, or fighting Zionism due to that massive threat the gigantic nation of Israel presents.

I think the majority of Muslims are good people, but I think like any threat there is indoctrination and lack of freedom and education involved here and a vast swath of nations that cater towards antipathy towards the things our nation cherishes. That is something that is open for debate, and while we can't generalize, we know what religion promotes virgins for suicide bombings and straps explosive vests on their children often. Here's a tip, it ain't any Christians.

People have valid concerns about Islam due to the issues with extremists, the stances of their nations, and the support said countries have for Al Qaeda and others.

Anyways, these are deep issues which require give and take in discussions and an actual knowledge of Islam without just trying to score political points. As we make alliances with brutal dictators, and have trade pacts with communist regimes, we need to keep in mind the bigger interests of national security, but also to keep intact our countries freedoms, albeit in a wise manner.

If Tom Jackson really had some initiative, he'd write a long article about the Eco Terrorist who invaded the Discovery building and killed people, and his reasons and the threat that movement causes. I don't expect, but it would be refreshing.

goofus

Weekly Jihad tally from 8/21 to 8/27 61 Jihad attacks, 268 dead bodies, 579 critically injured. More people are killed by islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition. More civilians were killed by islamists in two hours on 911 than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the KKK has in the last 50 years. I guess the few,according to Chung Lee, are very, very active!  Source is the religion of peace website.

Sam

The UN estimated that 10,000 civilian ethic Albanian Muslims were killed by ethic Serbs (Christians) in the  96-99 in Kosovo.  This was pure ethic cleansing and genocide.  I am sure this was in the name of God, how proud God must be. 

I still remember that my mother who was 2nd generation Irish sending money to "Sinn Fein" to "help Irish orphans" as her mother had done.  What she never realized was that Sinn Fein help create Protestant Irish and English Orphans by their financial aid to the terrorism of the IRA,  once again in the name of God and religion.

goofus

I find it funny how Chung Lee,Duhast, and Brutus Smith say we shouldn't judge a religion like Islam for the action of a few, but they are quick to condemn 165 million christians for the deaths of SEVEN abortion doctors since Roe vs. Wade

brutus smith

"Christians" like you have no agenda cross? What a joke. Creationism, abstinence only, no contraceptives, defining marriage  just to name a few. No agenda? Yeah right.

 

Repubs have nothing, nada, zilch.

Pastor Ron

I know those liberal crybabies will try to deny the facts.  Muslims kill people and American protect people.  I am just waiting for Brutus or Chung Lee to make some crazy argument that the numbers at the Religion of Peace website are not accurate because they count soldiers killed by muslims but not muslims killed by soldiers.  The reason for that is because we are there to protect.  Not only that  but because when we kill it is accidental and intelligent people know that is collateral damage.  Muslims kill for their religion and it has nothing to do with politics.

Tweety Sees Eve...
Pastor Ron says

Those muslims are a bunch of close minded, unintelligent and uninformed people and not like those who follow the only true religion........CHRISTIANITY!!!  They hate us for our freedom and they want to spread their evil religion.  I am tired of the liberal apologists who say that 19 terrorists don't represent 1.6 billion people.  The only difference between those 19 and the 1.6 billion is opportunity!  Their religion is full of hate and I am tired of those liberals think they are so smart pointing out the couple of acts of violence in the Bible without understanding that there is a difference..... the Bible is the truth and not some foreign religion.  Those liberals need to be more tolerant and educate themselves like the religious majority!

What gives you the arrogant right to say that Christianity is the only true religion?  The Bible was interpreted from Hebrew, an unspoken language to our current Bible.  No one is even 100% sure that it is accurate.  No one has ever given proof of Jesus Christ walking this Earth.  As for the narrow minded thought process that you have, more people believe in other Gods than believe in your God.  How is it that Christians are so smart that they assume that they are correct?  At least in the Islamic religion, there is minimal Hypocracy, unlike Christianity. 

No, I am not Islamic, so please don't think that I am defending them.  I am simply saying that you should look at your own religion under the microscope before looking at others and judging theirs. 

As of 2007, this was the following rate of religions world wide.

Christianity: 2.1 billion
  Islam: 1.5 billion
  Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
  Hinduism: 900 million
  Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
  Buddhism: 376 million
  primal-indigenous: 300 million
  African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
  Sikhism: 23 million
  Juche: 19 million
  Spiritism: 15 million
  Judaism: 14 million
  Baha'i: 7 million
  Jainism: 4.2 million
  Shinto: 4 million
  Cao Dai: 4 million
  Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
  Tenrikyo: 2 million
  Neo-Paganism: 1 million
  Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
  Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
  Scientology: 500 thousand
 

 

Cross

Psst, Pastor Ron is another fake account. Please don't give him any credence.

I'm glad wanting our children to wait for sex is the same to you as strapping explosives on their back or cutting off their genitalia, Brutus.

Please share your religious beliefs. You seem to have issues with Christians. Marcy Kaptur is a Catholic. Is she part of the evil bloc with their nefarious agenda?

Sam, it's ETHNIC cleansing, and it was from a former province of the Soviet Union where religion was outlawed and education was woeful. Now, who moved in and stopped the war and the ETHNIC <not religious> cleansing? Here's a tip, it wasn't any Muslims.

Sam

Cross, Kosovo a region within the providence of Bosnia and a part of of Yugoslavia which maintained independence from the USSR more than any other eastern European country under Marshall Tito.  Religion was never outlawed under Tito, it was tolerated, Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims all lived in Kosovo. After the break up of Yugoslavia the killing in the name of religion started and became a genocide. When someone is killed for practicing their faith its both ethnic and religious cleansing.  I was once told to find the largest gathering of hypocrites step into a place of worship.  Many people who pray on their Sabbath will stab you in the back the next day.  It is one thing to claim religion its something much more to live your faith whatever it might be.

brutus smith

 So you are arrogant enough to believe all Christians believe as you do?

 

Repubs have nothing, nada, zilch.

Cross

When did I say I was Christian?

You know what they say about people who assume.

Stick to the 'Republicans are bad, evil, fascist theme". It's nice and simple and that way you and Goofus can play your propaganda game some more.

p.s. Feel free to answer the Marcy Kaptur question you ducked. She is catholic. She does <supposedly> follow the church's dogma.

Pastor Ron

I don't know what kind of hippie drugs Cross is doing but all this conspiracy talk has to be drug induced.  For those who know me and my followers.......I am a man of God and not some pagan hedonist like Chung Lee.  If anybody is a fake.....it is the person who goes by "cross" and who has a major messiah complex. 

SamAdams

Whatever other arguments anyone may present, Marcy Kaptur is NOT Catholic. I don't care what she SAYS she is. No practicing Catholic supports abortion, and Kaptur does.

This is NOT, by the way, some kind of a position statement on abortion on either my part OR Ms. Kaptur's. I'm just saying that the official Catholic position remains anti-abortion.

Of course, since Kaptur has lied about a host of other things over the course of her tenure in Congress, I suppose her pretense she's Catholic is as legitimate as is her pretense of honoring her oath to the Constitution...

Cross

Good points Sam, but the region was plunged into civil war with various nefarious leaders who were attempting to exert power. It was not a Christian vs Muslim conflict,

This was a Serb and Croat war of atrocities without much religion involved. Regardless, no Christian nation really supported the illegal activities of the Serbs, although some did turn a blind eye. Yes, many Muslims were targetted but the actions in Srebrenica were against all Bosnians in an ethnic manner.  Religion was not a theme for the Serbs and Croats, although there was intolerance towards Muslins. Eseentially it was a lawless civil war involving ethnic groups with centuries of hatred in a land plunged into anarchy. 

Your labelling it Christian vs Muslim is as inaccurate as calling World War II Christian vs Jew. The people who ended both conflicts, and protected the inflicted religions were primarily Christians. The ones doing the atrocities, not so much, since again these were mostly areligious folk as the perpetrators.

Also the UN is not really a valid organization for checking information regarding anything criminal for countries. the council is controlled by a bloc of Islamic and African states, backed by China, Cuba and Russia. As with most things from the UN, much of what is done is done in political fashion.

 

Sam

Cross, the genocide was perpetrated by Orthodox ethnic Serbs against the ethnic Albanian Muslims, it was just as much about religion as ethnic origin.  Prosecution is still be pursued in the World Court in the Hague for crimes against humanity.

Pastor Ron

Christians to no commit ethnic or religious crimes against muslims.  That is a liberal lie against God's truth.

Sam

Pastor Ron, you give real Christians a bad name, my guess is that you are either a mail order pastor or self anointed, I pray for you flock.  By the way I am a conservative.

Pastor Ron

Sammie you sound like one of those Log Cabin Conservatives. 

jend

Have you ever wondered how Hitler managed to get an entire population of seemingly educated citizens to shut their eyes while their military murdered millions of people?

In 1933, a newly elected Adolf Hitler had big dreams of creating a German Empire, whose borders would push to the very edge of the European continent.  He knew however, that no one in their right mind would send their son off to war in the name of Imperialism, as it is not a noble cause, and certainly not one worth dying for.   But Hitler was smart, and 1933 he had his own parliament building, The Reichstag, burned to the ground.  This act was quickly blamed on a "communist terrorist" who was "coincidentally" Jewish.... And when Hitler decided to invade Poland later that year, the German citizenry rallied around him in support.  After all....they thought they had been attacked.

And we all know what happened next....

9/11 was an inside job:  a false flag operation designed to rally the support of the American citizenry as we expand our Empire through the oil fields of the Middle East.

Wow.  Mission accomplished.

 Wake up.  America is under attack.  But not by Al-Qaeda.  Our enemies our domestic.  They were $5,000 suits and work at the very highest levels of our government.   And while we're all divided and distracted by this "ground zero mosque" story, they are actively, and systematically destroying this country.

http://video.google.com/videopla...

Sam

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained personal attacks. Discussion Guidelines

jend

Instead of hurling personal insults at strangers, I prefer to spend my free time trying to educate people on the dangers of apathy and fascism.  If you would care to discuss any of the information that I posted, I would welcome the debate.  It is my sincere hope that if we educate ourselves and eachother as to what is really going on here, that we can save this country, and build a better future for our children.  Fighting is counterproductive, Sam.

Sam

Jend you really believe 9/11 was "an inside job", if so I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.  Pastor Ron using religion as a crutch will make you disabled.

44846GWP

I agree with Bill Mahr, "For people to be free, religion must die". Pastor Ron, you are just as full of B.S. as the radical Muslims.

Duhast

Wow, I sure missed a lot here…

American, I post citations from the bible which were pretty straight forward in saying who can be enslaved and who can be killed for not believing? I cite real examples and you come back with personal and generalized insults. I apparently struck a “hangnail”.

My point in the posts was to show that both religions are just a screwy, just as violent and just as easy to take out of context. So, for those of you who wish to insult Islam should really look at your own religious texts. Because your bible sanctions murder, rape, and slavery, does that mean you think it’s OK? Didn’t southerners use bible passages to justify slavery? Don’t cult leaders use passages to justify their atrocities? Don’t many religions use passages to subjugate women?

They don’t do these things because of their religion. They use their religious texts to inflame already angry people. It doesn’t matter which religion is used to ignite a powder keg.

SamAdams

Mr. Jackson, you're wrong on several points. While you're entitled to your opinion even if I disagree with it, you're NOT entitled to alter facts.

Calling the Cordoba Community Center merely a community center may not be a misnomer. But given that even those who fully intend to build on the site have also referred to the project as a "mosque," you should probably stand corrected.

Further, you say that "ground zero" is two whole blocks away. Well, if you suggest it's two blocks from the proposed building site to the actual place where the foundations of the World Trade Center stood, you're right. But "ground zero" covers a whole lot more area than that. Some, including you, seem to forget that other buildings fell that day. While the building on the proposed mosque site didn't actually fall, it WAS punctured by falling debris, including a large hunk of the landing gear of one of the doomed airliners. As far as I'm concerned, if the spot had blood on it, it's part and parcel of "ground zero." I'm frankly taken aback that anyone who actually remembers the morning of 9/11 could disagree.

You also imply that Republicans have no respect for freedom of religion or for private property rights. If you have any evidence that a Republican has said that the Muslims shouldn't have freedom of religion, or that a private property owner can't build as he pleases (within zoning ordinances, obviously), produce it. I've heard no such thing. The reason so many are against the Ground Zero Mosque (and yes, I WILL use that terminology) is the stunning lack of respect or human decency it represents.

You may not know this, but Islam has a long and unvaried history of building places of worship at sites it's celebrated a victory. From old Orthodox churches to Jewish synagogues, conquering Muslims have either refurbished or rebuilt mosques (if I recall my history correctly, this practice began around 630 CE). The oh-so-holy-to-Islam Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem is a famous example of such a slap in the face. The Cordoba "Community Center" is another. (And speaking of Cordoba, have you actually READ any of the group's mission statements? ::: shudder ::: )

Given some of your past writings, I'm going to assume (do correct me if I'm wrong) that you think hate speech laws and hate crimes laws are a good idea. Me? I consider them infringements since hate alone ought not be a crime. It's ignorant, but not criminal. But if we play by the rules of many on the progressive side of things, just consider the Ground Zero Mosque to be both seeing as how they pretty much are.

Chung Lee

Chung Lee is a little confused here Sam Adams.  Because a building got hit by shrapnel it becomes part of ground zero?  Ground zero by definition is point of explosion.  The community center was hit by debris from the explosion.  With that said, you are expousing an opinion that you want to be a fact.  Honey it would be nice if you learned the difference between the two. 

One more thing...... what you see as   "a stunning lack of respect or human decency"  May be seen by others as the "epitome of freedom of religion and expression".  Do you remember  the invasion of Iraq and the 24 hour coverage of "shock and awe?  Do you think that maybe the cavalier attitude toward the death and destructions of men women and children may have been seen as "a stunning lack of respect or human decency?"  Chung Lee is not justifying either but just pointing out a lack of consistency.

goofus

in fact it is the path that all extremists take.

Here is how it goes:

1). Come to truly believe, religious-like, in a new idea
2). Proselytize for it among your friends and family
3). Join other like-minded folks
4). Begin to lose friends and family for your insistence on your new faith
5). Begin to discount other people for not believing
6). Become too radical even for your early new, like-minded friends
7). Begin to believe that people are expendable and secondary to your new religion
8). Join other radicals that feel the same
9). Engage in or start claiming that property damage is right to push your religion
10). Last step: Commit violence for your religion

goofus
While Abbas Talks Peace With Obama – His Ministers Honor Mother of 4 Terrorists Posted by Jim Hoft on Thursday, September 2, 2010, 9:54 AM

Israel’s peace partners honored the mother of 4 Islamic terrorists.

The Minister of Prisoners’ Affairs, Karake, honors mother of 4 terrorists with PA Shield. [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Aug. 28, 2010- PMW]

“The Palestinian mother is a central partner in the struggle…
It is she who gave birth to the fighters, and she deserves that we bow to her in salute and in honor.”

As Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas was in Washington to discuss peace with Israel, members of the Palestinian Authority honored the mother of 4 suicide bombers in Bethlehem this week.
Arutz Sheva reported:

Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon says that while PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) talks peace in Washington, his men encourage terrorism back at home – and Gazans celebrate terrorism by giving out candy.

Ayalon decried the fact that the PA minister for prisoner affairs recently visited the Abu Hamid family, four sons of which have been sentenced to life for murdering Israelis. The official, Isa Karaka, shared the Ramadan break-fast meal with the family, and praised the mother for the way in which she has contributed to the struggle for independence. Karaka also visited the home of suicide terrorist Iyat Al-Ahres in Bethlehem, who blew herself up outside a supermarket in Kiryat Yovel in Jerusalem in 2002, killing two Israelis.

“While peace talks are underway in Washington,” Ayalon railed out, “Abu Mazen’s ministers continue to incite and encourage terror attacks against Israel. These visits must be viewed with great gravity.”

Meanwhile, in Hamas-run Gaza, great pride is being taken in the two attacks carried out in Israel this week. Hamas has claimed responsibility both for the point-blank murder of four Jews near Hevron, and the attempted murder of a husband-and-wife near Rimonim last night. The terrorist organization has sharply criticized Fatah for seeking to arrest the perpetrators of the attacks.

The official Hamas website has posted a special page in praise of the two attacks, including photographs of Gaza residents distributing candy to passersby – a traditional expression of joy – in celebration of the deaths of four Israeli Jews.

Obama may want to put up a few more Pro-Palestinian billboards in Israel

Bailey

 

Hillary has filed a complaint against Arizona with the United Nations for human rights violations (the Arizona immigration law). Think about this people.

"How fortunate for leaders, that the masses do not think." - Hitler   Obama has set a precedent with this act, ITS TREASON! This act has for the 1st time established OUR government as being SUBMISSIVE to the UN, making our Constitution SECONDARY to the UN or New World Order. NEVER before has an administration sacrificed the Sovereignty of our nation like this, both Bush’s spoke of the new world order but Obama has found a way to make it happen, slowly and under the radar, but none the less a treasonable precedence.  This is JUST the beginning of UN control over the US and the liberals will press forward with this type of manipulation and the sheep who never were taught or studied their Us Constition will eventually accept the UN or New World Order as the norm. This is another deadly shot that is hitting our Grandchildren, soon we will be under the dictates of the World government, world court, and the Constitution that gives us freedoms that NO OTHER COUNTRY in the past or present has ever provided will become null and void. What an evil man this president is and those who support him.

Americanonly

Bailey, you are so right.  Americans have closed their eyes and become a bunch of sheep going to slaughter.  This President has been groomed by Kissenger (not sure of spelling) and a Russian man for the very job of leader of the NEW WORLD ORDER.... it's not fiction it's fact.  He has gone all around the world asking countries to forgive us ...........People wake up... Name me one other country that has gone in after the war is over and rebuilt those places.  This president of ours has bowed down to Arab leaders yet has shunned the Prime Minister of Israel.  In many photos where others were standing in honor of our flag with their hands over their hearts, our president doesn't .   This president has divided our country by his lies and his lack of love of America.  He says he loves America........then why is he bent on distroying our economy by getting rid of capitolism... The more dependent we become on this government the more control they will have over you.  By the time Americans realize what is going on with this president it will be way too late because Government will be completely in control NOT THE PEOPLE.  Our Government has grown to enormous size and hasn't stopped ... It's growing more and more all the time.  Our president has walked on our constitution and gets applause from Liberals... so many people have miss quoted the constitution so it shows me they really haven't read it. 

Kimo

 

Everyone has a right to look at this from all angles and spin to suit their needs and wants. The way I see this issue is: Use the “ground zero”, “mosque” to sway voters, get the “majority”, to get “control” of the money, that’s left in the pot. From what I see, it’s working…………………………
Duhast

American & Baily. It's posts like yours they put up on the news after you finally go all the way off the deep end and shoot up a school, mall, or some other public location.

Paranoid schizophrenia Symptoms By Mayo Clinic staff

In paranoid schizophrenia, delusions are often focused on the perception that you're being singled out for harm. Your brain misinterprets experiences and you hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.

6079 Smith W

 

jend writes:   “9/11 was an inside job.”   Not possible.   The major problem with most "conspiracy theories" from those like the UFO crash at Roswell, NM to those of the Kennedy assasination is that it would be necessary for thousands of people to keep silent.   Even POTUS Clinton said that the “Truthers” were nuts:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7-XfE7KcU   Also, Herr Hitler only exploited political and social sentiments that had been brewing in Germany for 70 years or more.  

Even after the war, many Germans tended to absolve Hitler of most wrong doing and blamed his advisors.

If you want atrocities study the results of the U.S.' Indian Removal Act:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

6079 Smith W

 

@ Duhast:   It’s been said: Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that they’re not out to get you.   In popular thinking, the brain has a left logical side and a right emotional side. Dismissing one’s "gut" reaction (right side) and rationalizing a situtation (left side) can sometimes prove to be deadly.   Over the years, I’ve learned to “listen” to my unconsious. Subliminally we take in a lot of information on an unconsious level.   Learning to recognize what your unconscious is trying to "tell" you can be a very valuable skill set for good decision making.   Unfortunately, our culture teaches us to dismiss it in place of the rational conscious mind.

 

6079 Smith W

 

44846GWP writes:   I agree with Bill Mahr, "For people to be free, religion must die".   Karl Marx, Stalin, Lenin, Castro and numerous other of history's oppressors and mass murderers agree with Mr. Mahr also.  

The State becomes the religion.

SamAdams

Duhast, it's not paranoia when it's a simple fact: Secretary of State Clinton and President Barack Obama DID "report" Arizona to the UN Human Rights Commission for human rights violations. That IS treasonous. Meanwhile, it should be fascinating to see what such Commission members and human rights advocates as China have to say about the whole thing...

Chung Lee, do NOT call me "honey." Do not call be baby, sweetie pie, or pumpkin, either. Patronization will get you nowhere, and trust me when I tell you: where I'm concerned, it'll get you there real fast. Insofar as "ground zero" goes, do you refer to "ground zero" in a nuclear blast ONLY as the place where the bomb blew up? Or is "ground zero" a RADIUS of destruction? (In case you're still unclear, it's the latter.)

For your further information, Chung Lee, I don't know that even the most hawkish have been "cavalier" toward death and destruction in Iraq or anywhere else. But war is war. Please explain how the attacks on 9/11 WEREN'T acts of war, and how the proposal to build the Ground Zero Mosque IS (your comparison of attitude, snookums, not mine).

Chung Lee

Sam Adams you sound like confused girl who need man to think for you.  Sort of like the founding fathers who thought the complexities of politics was far too difficult for the female mind to understand.  Their words not Chung Lee's. 

Chung Lee never heard about any connection Iraq had to 9/11 other than the obvious....... they are Muslims!  Personally, Chung Lee would think the US was unjustified in their destruction and occupation of Iraq.  What do you think peaches? 

brutus smith

 One question for the right wingnuts. Why is it you expect all other nations to follow UN directives but not us? That was the main reason Bush started a war with Iraq, they weren't following UN directives with "Weapons of mass destruction". OK for the pot but not the kettle. Typical right wingnut Conservative Repub philosophy, do as I say not as I do.

 

F. ear  O. ligarthy  X. enophobes

gene44870

hey where are these so called weapons at ? No one found then before during or after the war .so where are they ?

It was alla front for us to go to war , His dad took us to war and now the son did , And what did it cost us . well take a good look around yea

All your tax dollars are going to so called rebuild thier country that by the way , at the last report wasnt getting done , yet all this oney was sent over there to rebuild and that isnt be finished ,they have a brand new prison there , but no one is in it and only one guard at the main gate

The water treatment plant is suppose to be in working order yet they still have waste flowing through the streets .I am not defending then , but it really make me hot under the collar when i think of all the good them dollars could have done right here .and yet nothin is getting done accept the defist is at 12 trillion dollars yet no one wants to talk about that and try and fix it .

Oh and most of all if you recall , the us told the U.N That we would be invading them and the U.N ask us not too , Yet Bush seen fit to defy the U.N and go anyway .So who do we really have to blame , Bush and no one else , and thats the cold dirty and nasty facts like it or not

gene44870

Its not about rights , its about respect for all who dies on that fatefull day , that changed this country and is suppose to make us stronger .

I think it should  be left up to the people who losts there lives there and  their families , and i would have to say  that they would not want something like that , even if its a couple of blocks away

Its being disrepectifull to all the people that died due to there ways of life .And who can say that they may or may not use it as a breading ground for my attacks on U.S grounds ?

They say that there are already people in the U.S that are here for all the wrong reasons and want to harm us again , and you have to remember not only about the ones that died or died because of that day , but you have to use common sense and say no to this cause it could be a front to attack us again , and this time within the U.S  boarders.Untill this was over  and laden is brought to justice and the treat is disolved , then i would say no , You all are swarned to up hold the constitition and part of that is to protect the US through whatever means needed , But then you would in my eyes be saying that there writes over ride ours .wheres it end , when they biuld it and then declair victory in the war ?

I am not saying that is what they are or are not doing , But it makes me think as you should be .If they want to build here say they can pratice thier  religion if you want to call it that , then let them go back to there country and they can all they want , but as long as they are in this country they should have to respect our wishes and not build one at this time .

remember all those who lived and died on 911 and still goes on today , and dont risk american lives

You have a responsiablity to everyone one weather they are republicians or demacrat  or independent  to protect us , and to defend the constitition forget about politics and use common sense .

where do you think one of the men that drove the plane into the twin towers learned how to fly ? right here in the so called land of the free , Try and remember that and do the right thing.

I am not against practice of free religion believe me , But then that religion cost lives of people that never needed to die , then I have to think that they should be concidered as well .

Chung Lee

Brutus that is too easy of question.  These people are not capable of reflective thought.  Interesting how these people clamor on about democracy but then they are against a world democracy?  Only proves the least you know the better Republican you can be...... just ask Glenn Beck.  "I held the inaugural address in my hands"  followed by "always tell the truth".  What a D-Bag!!!!

brutus smith

 gene says "Thye say that there are already people in the U.S that are here for all the wrong reasons and want to harm us again". I agree. Their names are Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Murdock, Boehner, McConnel, 6079.

 

F. ear  O. ligarthy  X. enophobes.

Lucius

As insignificant as this point may seem to be, I do not believe that "oligarthy" is a word. I think you might have meant "oligarchy." Perhaps the use of an online dictionary would enable you to better create acronyms insulting FOX.

kURT

Wow! Check out Barry Goldwater & his families past. Against gays till he learned his grandson was gay. Then he changed his stance (flip-flop). Wasn't his wife involved with an abortion clinic in Arizona?

History is great. All are dirty - some just more than others.

brutus smith

 Love the right wingnut word police on here. If you wingnutters would spend a fraction of the time spent on personal attacks to actually looking up history, you might actually become educated. You would know one of your heroes, Ronald Reagan, couldn't spell or punctuate worth a darn.

 

F. ear  O. ligarchs  X. enaphobes.

goofus

If this building is just going to be a community center, what's all this junk about religious freedom?

EZOB

Feere-- Like Ronald Reagan--  I can't spell the word, much less, know the definition--  Most probably  used by Left-Wing Liberals when meeting Wing-Nuts.

Oligarchy--  I really like this one.   Again, like Reagan, had to look it up in the "New" Webster.  I think that this word was just beccame acceptabler, like ain't, to describe the present administration.  Yep, that's it, they hit the nail on the Head, ruled by a few, O'Bama, Reid, Pelosi, and Napolitano.

Xenophobes--  You see, I don't want that bear for a pet that just killed that guy.  Really, I'm smart enough to know I don't want any bear for a pet, precedents have been established.  If you think these Foreigners like us, feel free to travel to Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, how many more places would you like to tour-North Korea??  Maybe even Mexico.  Get this--THEY DON"T LIKE US!!!!!   Please understand my feelings---I DON"T LIKE THEIR WAY OF LIFE AND I DON'T LIKE THEM!!!   I really believe most minorities are more prejudiced than the majority of Americans.  It's been a real long road and there's a long way to go, but there is also more acceptable approaches.

SamAdams

Brutus, just as so to maintain the reputation you've so generously given those you term "rightwingnuts," "Xenophobes" is spelled with an "o," not an "a." Seriously, has your browser had dictionary.com blocked or something?

I know you think misspellings are no big deal, but in one way they are: The lack of attention to detail in something so simple implies a potential lack of attention to detail in larger issues. It's the equivalent of those who make up names for those who disagree with them in the absence of anything TRULY debatable.

brutus smith

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained personal attacks. Discussion Guidelines

stormy

Maybe the far right has a tendency to spin history, but I've seen PLENTY of revisionist nonsense from the left on here.  Like the load of mularkey that has America's problems beginning with Reagan.

Do you really think that everyone on here is too young to remember the 70s and 80s?  Reagan rebuilt this country after Carter turned it into a laughing stock.  Yes, Bush-lite left our economy in a mess.  Carter left it in a BIGGER mess.  Inflation, interest rates and unemployment were all double-digit at the same time, FAR worse than the most recent recession.

A recent post suggested that Republican presidents brought us two consecutive "Great Depressions," one in the 1930s and one under Bush-lite.  MORE revisionist krap!  The worst economic upheaval of the last half-century was brought to us by a liberal dem.  The lefties on here would like America to forget what the last "progressive" president was like, but some of us have long memories. 

Chung Lee

Looks lime Stormy forgot her meds

brutus smith

 Or using "medical" marijuana. 

goofus
Paki Minister Wants Obama to Offer Eid Prayers at Ground Zero & Declare Himself Caliph of All Muslims Posted by Jim Hoft on Sunday, September 5, 2010, 1:04 PM

This probably won’t help dispel any of those “Obama is Muslim” rumors…

A Pakistani minister wants Obama to offer Eid Prayers at Ground Zero and declare himself the new Caliph of the Muslim World.
News.IN reported, via ROP:

A Pakistani minister wants US President Barack Obama to offer Eid prayers at Ground Zero in New York and become the “Amir-ul-Momineen” or Caliph of Muslims.

Minister of State for Industries Ayatullah Durrani, who belongs to the ruling Pakistan People”s Party, said the upcoming Eid-ul-Fitr festival, expected to be observed on September 11, would be a “golden opportunity” for Obama to offer Eid prayers and declare himself the leader of all Muslims.

“In this way, all the problems of the Muslim world would be solved,” Durrani told The Nation newspaper.

Durrani, a former member of the Pakistan Ideological Council, contended that the Muslim world is in “dire need” of a Caliph and occupying this distinguished slot would provide Obama “exemplary titles” like “Mullah Barack Hussain Obama” or “Allama Obama”.

He said: “The time is approaching fast. Barack Hussain Obama must act now. This is a golden opportunity, Muslims badly need it.”

Obama”s elevation to the Islamic Caliphate would be the “key to success, he claimed but did not offer any explanation for his remarks.

That’s ridiculous.
We all know Obama is a Christian who attended a respectable church for years.

EZOB

   To all the Left-Wing Radicals who were busy watching Fox last night!!!!!!!!!   There was a very informative program on National Geographic that can better explain waht went on and is going on with the Mosques, Muslims, Jihad and such.

SamAdams

goofus, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that you can't be caliph if you're not a Muslim? Hmmm...

brutus smith

Hoft comes out with stuff on Monday and by Friday Snopes debunks it. But we never see a retraction from Hoft. I wonder why? 

Chung Lee

Can Chung Lee say Tea Tools?

Ronald Reagan is the founding father of al-qaeda.

stormy

Chunk, I am not now and have never been female.  Perhaps you and Brutie should be nominated to share the "whispering coward" award.  Instead of responding to my argument, you make dumb, un-funny jokes about medication.

And who better to receive the award than one who not only hides behind a user-name, but a phony ethnicity as well.

Chung Lee

Stormy, Chung Lee thinks you would be able to get discount on ladies night.  Your post was complete nonsense and speaking of revisionist......Reagan put us in debt buidling missles that we need to maintain today, he gave illegals amnesty, and created the Taliban.  Quite the record! If you would have asked him he would have given his Iran Contra statement. ..... I don't remember!

Ronald Reagan is the founding father of al-Qaeda.

stormy

Chunk, maybe you'd like to include some identifying info the next time you question my manhood.  You really do deserve the whispering coward award.

Maybe all of the lefties on here should share the award with you; they never take you to task for impersonating a cooley!  If I wrote in a mush-mouthed Steppin Fetchit accent, your buddies would be all over me, but because you're one of them, you can be as politically incorrect as you want.

And Reagan didn't create the Taliban.  The U.S. supported a loose-knit alliance that opposed the Soviet puppet regime, one faction of which later became the Taliban.  Oh, lest we forget, he was continuing a policy that started under Carter.  Y'know, when you and your allies write RIDICULOUS things about Reagan, you lose credibility.  Unlike you, most Americans revere his memory.

As to the missiles, they did their job, and they cost a fraction of what your pseudo-messiah has spent in less than 2 years.  How fortunate that the purse-strings are about to be cut!!!

Salvatore
R U Kidding me

well you you agree with it then the germans can hang there flag on a building next to the holocaust museum.

Chung Lee

Can we all agree that a German citizen or company can buy a building next to the Holocaust Museum?

brutus smith

 Is stormy talking about that Reagan guy who cut and ran from Lebanon after our Marine barracks were blown up? Or that Reagan guy who negotiated with terrorists (Iran) ? Or the Reagan who called the Taliban freedom fighters?

Chung Lee

I think she is talking about the revisionist Reagan they the right is trying to create.

goofus

 I love it when Brutus and Chung Lee reinforce my opinion that Islamists can't be trusted. Accusing Reagan of not doing enough in retaliation to an Islamic bombing of a Marine baracks. The french conducted an airstrike in the Bekaa valley targeting the Islamic Revolutionary Guards baracks of Sheikh Abullah after the bombing. Reagan was prepared to launch an airstrike also, but through lobbying efforts of  Secretary of Defense Casper Weinberger, who was against sending the Marines into Lebanon as a peace keeping force in the Lebanese Civil War from the onset, decided against it. On Feb.8 1984 the U.S.S New Jersey fired 300 shells at Druze and Syrian positions in the Bekaa valley. The man responsible was secretly indicted but was killed in a car bombing. Reagan,Carter(black hawk down),Clinton(khobar towers and USS cole) have all underestimated the Islamic threat.

stormy

MORE revisionist krap from the lunatic left.  The Taliban did not exist when Reagan was Prez.

BS, the American people don't care about Iran-Contra.  They didn't care about it then, and they sure as he11 don't care about it now.  By all means, keep smearing Reagan; you're only alienating any moderates who happen to read your drivel.

Chunk, you two-bit Charley Chan knockoff, I dare you; identify yourself.  I'll be happy to meet you.  Then you can have the fun of insulting my manhood to my face, and I can have the pleasure of knocking you right out of your shoes.

Again, everyone, you'll notice that the lefties never give Chunk any grief for his pidgin english or his cheesy insults.  If he were a conservative, they'd be on him like soy sauce on fried rice, but because he's one of them, he gets a pass.

 

Chung Lee

How about you identify yourself "stormy" and Chung Lee will come find you?  Chung Lee will tell you now that Chung Lee is not a Log Cabin Conservative and no Larry Craig meetings!

brutus smith

 stormy, you make my point. You didn't care then so why do you care now? If Obama sneezes you guys say he didn't sneeze right. 

Chung Lee

The Taliban didn't exist when Reagan was President?  Well, then why did he say

"These gentlemen (the Taliban) are the moral equivalents of America's founding fathers." Ronald Reagan, 1985

Looks like the facts once again get in the the way.  No problem..... just keep repeating the lies.

Cross

The Taliban was formed in 1989, after the soviet troops withdrawal.

 

 

 

stormy

Nice misquote, chunk-punk!!!   The part in parentheses is not Reagan, but YOU.  Reagan was talking about the Mujahedin, ONE faction of which LATER became the Taliban.  You are not fooling anyone.

BS, what's with "you guys?"  To this day, I don't hate Obama.  There were things about him that I liked, and I was willing to cut him some slack at first.  Yes, he inherited a mess.  Yes, his immediate predecessor was a clusterf*c*.  I'm not on here defending Bush-lite, and you know it.  Our gov't was out of balance for most of his time in office.  It's out of balance NOW, in the other direction; but of course, that is about to be corrected.  It must be killing you, knowing you can't stop it.

Chunk, as far as identifying myself; you first, coward.  I made the first challenge; it's up to you to pick up the gauntlet.  Of course, you never will, so here's another idea.  Name a public place, a time, and what you'll be wearing; be sure to mention something distinctive about your appearance or attire, so I won't clobber the wrong person.  I'll do likewise, and we can settle this man to phony chinese weasel.

Chung Lee

If you so brave why don't you do that?  Are you a coward?  If it is such a good idea why won't you do as you say others should do?  Or is that part of being a mindless right winger.  Chung Lee pretty sure you will not be doing much clobbering Nancy.  Come on tough guy put your ideas to work.

stormy

Again, I'm not a right-winger.  I just look like one to someone as far to the left as you.

I drew the line; you're the one who won't step over it.  I even gave you an option that wouldn't require you to publicly identify yourself on here, and you wouldn't exercise it.  You're the coward.  To borrow a phrase from BS, you are nothing, nada, zilch.

Go change your panties; you just peed in them.  I'm through with you, and with this thread.

Oh, wait a minute.  I don't want to end this off-topic.  I support the right of law-abiding American Muslims to build a community center, which happens to include prayer facilities, a couple of blocks from the WTC site.  Freedom of religion, and the right to use and enjoy one's own private property, clearly trump issues of sensitivity.  No disrespect for the victims of 9-11 is intended; it's just what I believe.

OK, that's it.  I'm outa here.

kURT

Hugo Back & the KKK. He was an assoicate supreme court justice for a long time.

What does this have 2do with this topic? Plenty. In the 20's Hugo was affiliated with the KKK along with many US citizens. The KKK promoted fear against Catholics, Jews, & immigrants as well as hatred against blacks. 

This topic is similar.

All of M are dirty - some more so than others.