Ask Away

Bryan Dubois
Mar 23, 2010

I understand that some people are curious about my previous relationship with Elsebeth Baumgartner.  Initially I didn't want to get into that subject matter because it creates an endless back and forth type argument that serves no purpose.  However, I realize some people have legitimate concerns or curiosity, and with clear answers their concerns can be addressed.

Oliver Hardy suggested that I allow people to ask their questions, but I do have a few issues with the request:

Please consider the bizarre legal implications created by interacting with the spouse of the person who was convicted of intimidating my family.  Interacting with that person in any sense - especially over the internet - is extremely unwise.  I'm not going to do it. 

So I'll make a deal with all readers:

If you ask a question about the subject matter out of curiosity and good faith, I'll answer it.  I won't answer questions that are obviously coming from people who have already formed an opinion and are only using the opportunity to lash out.

Deal?

Oliver, ask away.

Comments

Oliver Hardy

Wow Firelands411, I am impressed. You just scored some points with me. I understand your concerns about people lashing out at you. The only information that I have about you and Elsebeth Baumgartner is what I read in the newspapers and what I read online. I don't believe everything that I read in the newspapers and online. I will try to remain neutral here and not take sides, OK?

First question is the most recent one that I formulated when Joe Baumgartner had commented on Matt's blog which was later deleted. I did see his comments only briefly. Joe mentioned that he gave you $15,000 to defend his wife and you against charges. Did Joe give you $15,000? If Joe did not give you $15,000, where did you get the money to defend yourself? I will try to keep my questions brief but at the same time hope that you and others understand them. I have other questions also.

Thanks for allowing me to ask questions on your blog. I know that I am taking a risk here and going out on a limb by asking you questions. I don't feel that by asking questions to get at the truth should be risky. Do you? But one never knows.

 

Bryan Dubois

Oliver's question: 

Joe mentioned that he gave you $15,000 to defend his wife and you against charges. Did Joe give you $15,000? If Joe did not give you $15,000, where did you get the money to defend yourself? I will try to keep my questions brief but at the same time hope that you and others understand them. I have other questions also.

Response: 

I was given $15,000 from Joe Baumgartner for part of a retainer fee for attorney Jay Milano in Cuyahoga County.  The agreement was that Jay Milano was my attorney.  The fee was volunteered because she owed me the money from monies I had previously paid for her cause.  Baumgartner never contacted Milano nor had any conversations with him, which makes her allegation odd if she actually believed that Milano had been retained to defend her.

John Doe

411 -

I think opening this up the way you are will help clear up MANY misconceptions that people have about that entire situation.  I commend you for doing this.

I have a few questions:

1)  When did you begin to realize that perhaps this relation with Elsabeth might not be a good one to be in and why?

2)  What was the "final straw" for you in deciding to get out of that relationship?

3)  Elsabeth had some very legit and serious concerns about corruption in our local (and perhaps state) government.  In my opinion, she just went about it completely wrong.  Your thoughts?

4)  Did the governement (State or County) shut down Erie Voices, or you?  If it was you, what was the deciding factor?

 

Bryan Dubois

John Doe questions:

1)  When did you begin to realize that perhaps this relation with Elsabeth might not be a good one to be in and why?

Seeing her reaction to my first indictment was troubling.  She actually rejoiced at the news which led me to question her motivations.   Leaving the situation was difficult after I was indicted and I felt compelled to stay in it because I believed that Baumgartner brought up some legit issues with the court system.  I admit that I was, shall we say, "slow on the uptake."   I acted like a politically awakened college student and we all know how annoying they can be.

2)  What was the "final straw" for you in deciding to get out of that relationship?

On December 12, 2005 Baumgartner attempted to overdose on prescription drugs in the middle of a court hearing.  At that point I threw up my hands and mouthed the words, "I'm done" to the prosecutor who I thoroughly despised at that point because I thought he was misusing his authority.  My opinion on many factors in the case have since changed.   Throughout the ordeal I defended her good points, but also chastised her for acting recklessly.  Through the entire ordeal I've always been on the side of truth - which leads me to your next question:

3)  Elsabeth had some very legit and serious concerns about corruption in our local (and perhaps state) government.  In my opinion, she just went about it completely wrong.  Your thoughts?

I think Baumgartner was right about the way the visiting judge and special prosecutor system is set up in Ohio.  In Erie County we've elected two judges who seem to be committed to getting that system under control so that it's not misused to ensure specific outcomes in political cases.  Tone and Binette have done a good job and I haven't heard any complaints about how they're running the courts.  Overall, I agree with you.

4)  Did the governement (State or County) shut down Erie Voices, or you?  If it was you, what was the deciding factor?

I shut down the site and removed it from the internet after a series of events led me to question the veracity of some of the content.  Sifting through the entire site to separate fact from fiction would've taken years and I had no interest in doing it given the huge emotional toll that the ordeal inflicted on my family.  Keep in mind that Baumgartner was using it as a tool to criminally attack my family.  The decision to take down the site was a simple decision to make. 

Julie R.

You say that Baumgartner had some legit and serious concerns about corruption in local government but she went about it all wrong. What EXACTLY does this mean-----did she forget to dot an i or cross a t in one of her filings?

 

 

Bryan Dubois

Karl, do you think I should answer that or even try to answer it?  Julie, the fact that you're asking this question reinforces my original opinion that creating this thread is a waste of time.

For the record:

Baumgartner is/was combative, belligerent (warlike), unreasonable and generally regarded as untrustworthy.  If you're looking for specific instances, I'd be happy to give them, but it would require a book.  And I don't have the time for that this afternoon - and even if I did I'm not sure that you are the kind of person who can be convinced of something once you've made up your mind.

In other words:

Waste Of Time.

 

Karl Hungus-Mr....

Wow, Julie R. must not be familiar with the Baumgartner method.

Julie R.

I can't recall ever reading anything about Baumgartner trying to overdose on prescription drugs during a court hearing. Is this information a matter of public record? 

You say that Joe Baumgartner gave you $15,000.00 because his wife owed you money from monies you previously paid for her cause. Considering how often Julie R. has been told to "show the evidence, baby", do you have the evidence that Elsebeth owed you money?

You say that Erie County has elected two judges---Tone and Binette--- who seemed to be committed to getting the system under control so it is not misused to ensure specific outcomes........I will defer comment on that one other than to say what a joke. About one anyway.

Karl Hungus-Mr....

Julie R.,

How long have you been in the area?  Mrs. Baumgartner's list of "questionable methods" could go on for half of this webpage.  It includes dressing up as a KKK member at the Court House, failing to stop for the local LEO's and OSP and leading them on a motor vehicle chase that finaly had ended by stops sticks, stopping up the toilets at the Ottawa County jail, I could go on and on.....  This is was all in the newspaper, Erie Voices, The North Country Gazette, and many other sources.  You can read about the overdose here,www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article

The questions is less about how right or wrong she was, it is more like, why did she have to act so looney?

So Firelands 411, why do you think she acted in this manner?

 

Bryan Dubois

Julie R's question: 

I can't recall ever reading anything about Baumgartner trying to overdose on prescription drugs during a court hearing. Is this information a matter of public record? 

If you consider widely published newspaper articles "public record" then the answer to your question is "yes, it's a matter of public record."

 

 

My advice to you, Julie R., is to wonder silently, "what else don't I know?" Because it sounds to me that you're gathering information from non-credible sources on the internet.

You say that Joe Baumgartner gave you $15,000.00 because his wife owed you money from monies you previously paid for her cause. Considering how often Julie R. has been told to "show the evidence, baby", do you have the evidence that Elsebeth owed you money?

Julie, what evidence do you have that I'm not telling the truth?  Let's start there.  You are the one who didn't even know about the pill popping incident and when you found out you acted surprised.  I still believe that you're one of those people who already have a formed opinion, without knowing the facts.  The evidence I present wouldn't matter to you.  Why would I spend the time and effort?

Any other questions, folks?

Huron2009

Mrs. Baumgartner's story is a lesson to anyone interested in government accountability and corruption.  In my opinion it is informative to look at her situation for the courts point of view.  Consider this Decision and Judgement Entry from the Court of Appeals.  It becomes easy to see why the courts were able to justify their actions, she essentially accused everyone involved of corruption.  If there was a grain of truth to her campaign it was quickly lost in all the dramatics and legal side show.

The courts labelled her a "paper terrorist" for some of her comments.  She seems to have considered herself outside the courts jurisdiction because of their alleged corruption.  Without even getting into the pills, toilets, and low speed chases it was easy to discredit her.  If you are going to accuse the whole legal system up to and including the Chief Justice you better be loaded for bear. 

I feel bad for Mrs. Baumgartner, her sentence doesn't seem to fit the crime, but no one is above the law.

Oliver Hardy

Questions to Huron2009, Karl Hungus and John Doe. How and why did you form your prejudicial opinions about Elsebeth Baumgartner? Is it because of anything that you read in the newspapers, online or from comments posted on the news blogs?

Questions to Karl Hungus: You posted a link to the Toledo Blade.
Was the Toledo Blade reporter present at the Cuyahoga County Courthouse?
What "medication" did Baumgartner take if it was "unknown" as the article mentioned?
How can something "unknown" be called a "medication" or "pills" or were they maybe Tic Tacs?
Did the deputy seek medical treatment for the syringe that was "dangling from the middle of his palm?" From what I read of the Toledo Blade "news" article, the entire article was based on what Mr. Kasaris said. Where are the proven facts? Also you mentioned that Baumgartner dressed up as a "KKK member at the Court House."  Do you have the "news" source?
Mr. Hungus, do you believe everything that you read in the newspapers, Erie Voices, The North Country Gazette, and many other sources?

Questions to Huron2009: Why did you post that court document? Even Firelands411 agrees when he wrote "I think Baumgartner was right about the way the visiting judge and special prosecutor system is set up in Ohio."
You wrote: "she essentially accused everyone involved of corruption" EVERYONE? Are you stretching it?
You wrote: "pills, toilets, and low speed chases"  How many pills? How many toilets? How many chases? Why over exaggerate? I do agree with you that the "sentence didn't fit."

Questions to Firelands411: Why post the same thing that Mr. Hungus posted the link to? Is the "news" article all factual? Where is the proof in the "news" article?

Karl Hungus-Mr....

Mr, Hardy

I am not sure what evidence you really want, do we need a talking white rabbit that wears a top hat to regurgitate the same stories?

Dr. Baumgartner herself told me personaly about all of the stories I posted except for the toilet overflowing, she put it in a different term but to be honest I do not remember what she called it.  When asked about the syringes (I am sure I spelled that wrong) in her purse at the overdosing she said they were for her dog.  I have no reason not to believe that.  She also said that she overdosed to try to save her life.  Once again I have to believe that is what she was thinking at the time.

I have a feeling that you still will not be satisfied and will want video recorded evidence and 12 witnesses to confirm that I have meet Else.

Bryan Dubois

 

You guys are truly amazing.  I have answered these questions in earlier comments if you'd simply go back and read it.

Questions to Karl Hungus: You posted a link to the Toledo Blade.  Was the Toledo Blade reporter present at the Cuyahoga County Courthouse?

No he wasn't.  But I was.  And if you want this entire story just ask and I will tell you.  Stop acting like this is some kind of conspiracy to hold you from  the truth.

Questions to Firelands411: Why post the same thing that Mr. Hungus posted the link to? Is the "news" article all factual? Where is the proof in the "news" article?

The proof is witness testimony.  I was there.

What "medication" did Baumgartner take if it was "unknown" as the article mentioned?

It was high blood pressure medication and from my conversations with Baumgartner she was trying to cause a scene to get media attention on her case.  It worked:  The media reported it and they got the facts completely right.  For the record, this is exactly how I remember it:

Baumgartner fumbles around in her purse while the judge is talking.  She draws out a pill bottle and begins dumping pills into her hand.

Judge Saffold:  "Oh, no you're not taking any medications in my courtroom."

Baumgartner:  [nods head mouths quietly] "Oh yes I am."

Judge Saffold:  [motions to deputy to intervene]

Baumgartner:  [dumps pills into her mouth, gulps, raises hands over her head]  "I just overdosed."

Stunned silence in the courtroom.  I'm sitting within 3 feet of her and I refuse to look directly at her while she's doing this.  As soon as she makes her announcement I begin shaking my head.  I turn toward Dan Kasaris and mouth the words, "I'm done."

[Lots of shock here.  A little confusion on what's going to happen next.  The judge order the deputies to escort Baumgartner out for medical attention.  She leaves her purse at the table.]

Kasaris:  "Your honor, umm....we need to....we need to find out what she took so we can give her medical attention..."

Judge Saffold:  "Okay."

Deputy:  "Is it okay to go into the purse to find out what she took?"

Saffold:  "Yes."

Deputy:  [Turns to Joe Baumgartner who is sitting in the back of the courtroom and asks, "Is there anything in here that I need to know about?  Any sharp objects, syringes?"

Joe Baumgartner:  "No, not that I know of."  [I believe Joe was being honest here.  How was he supposed to know that his wife left an exposed syringe in the purse?]

Deputy:  [reaches into purse rummages around for a moment for the bottle and then draws his hand out.  Courtroom is again stunned to see that a smaller sized syringe is stuck into the deputies hand]  "SON OF A BITCH!"  [Deputy shakes his hand off to remove the syringe -- and as a theatrical touch the syringe flies toward the floor and sticks into the carpet like a lawn dart.]

The deputy freaks out about it and looks angrily at Joe.

Judge Saffold:  "Deputy, take yourself down to the infirmary and tell them what happened and ....[get tested]"


Also you mentioned that Baumgartner dressed up as a "KKK member at the Court House."  Do you have the "news" source?

We don't need a news source.  This is a story that Baumgartner volunteers to anyone who shows interest in her cause.

What's her cause?

My opinion:  Her cause wasn't government accountability.  Her cause was ego-driven: To get as much attention as possible as she travels down the road toward self destruction.  I was with her on that train and I jumped off before it was too late.  Some say I should've never boarded in the first place and then once I did, I rode it for way too long.  Those people were right.

Any  more questions?  (Cuz I think it's time to move on...)

Julie R.

Oliver Hardy is right. The entire article on the so-called "overdose" is based only  on what Prosecutor Dan Kasaris said.  The article says that Baumgartner startled courtroom observers by swallowing a handful of pills yet the press makes no effort to interview the "startled observers" to confirm what Kasaris said? I noticed the press didn't even bother confirming what Kasaris said with Judge Shirley Strickland Saffold (choke) or the deputy "who stuck his hand in Baumgartner's bag". The article doesn't even give the name of the deputy.

I don't believe it. I think if anything it was probably more like Baumgartner needed to take her blood pressure medicine and that's all there was to it.  I think every derogatory article that has ever been written about Baumgartner right from the start was either a flat-out lie or else highly exaggerated to take away the credibilty of what she was saying because what she was saying was the truth about ALL of them.   

Julie R.

So why isn't Joe Baumgartner participating? Has he been banned?  I would really like to hear his side of the story. I would like to hear EJay Baxter's side of the story, too. This one-sided crap certainly isn't fair.

Huron2009

Questions to Huron2009, Karl Hungus and John Doe. How and why did you form your prejudicial opinions about Elsebeth Baumgartner? Is it because of anything that you read in the newspapers, online or from comments posted on the news blogs?

How and why did you form your prejudicial opinion of my opinion?  I understand why 411 was reluctant to get into this issue.  It is like a philosophical puzzle, how do we know anything?

My first thoughts about Mrs. Baumgartner was concern that she was a victim of government retaliation.  I believe that there is significant government corruption and incompetence and I believe that some in power will use it to stay in power.  Parts of her story where pretty far out there but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. 

My opinion was largely formed outside the media or court records by the experience of an acquaintence of mine that was threatened with a lawsuit by Mrs. Baumgartner.  I will not name names or go into detail but in my opinion, here was a good person basically minding their own business who was being threatened with a lawsuit.  Fortunately nothing came of it but there was some genuine concern of the cost of being dragged into court for some perceived slight.  I don't know what Mrs. Baumgartner started out to be but I think she became a legal bully.  She may have been comfortable representing herself but like it or not, most regular Joe's need a lawyer to go to court and that costs a lot of money.  I think that is wrong and for me at least, undermined her credibility.

Our system is not perfect, but at some point you have a large number of elected (by We the People) and appointed officials and she is saying they are all corrupt.  In the case cited, four judges had already recussed themselves.  If I followed the logic provided, our system could never convict anyone of anything.  A child molester could claim conflict of interest because a judge loves kids.

Questions to Huron2009: Why did you post that court document? Even Firelands411 agrees when he wrote "I think Baumgartner was right about the way the visiting judge and special prosecutor system is set up in Ohio."

I posted the court document because it is another side of the story that doesn't get much attention.  I realize it may be biased but it is still an important perspective.  I believe in the rule of law.  I understand that it is often imperfectly applied but that does not mean you throw the whole system out.  Keep in mind this was an appeal to a higher court, not local judges that may have had personal involvement with this case.

Firelands411 included a very important phrase in his statement, "I think" which means that it is his opinion and he is entitled to it.  I do not know if the visiting judge and special prosecutor system is right or wrong.  There will be cases where the locals are conflicted and someone needs to be called in from the outside. 


You wrote: "she essentially accused everyone involved of corruption" EVERYONE? Are you stretching it?

Is there anyone involved in the prosecution of Mrs. Baumgartner that she did not accuse of corruption or some criminal act?  Was there not a single honest person in this entire group? 


You wrote: "pills, toilets, and low speed chases"  How many pills? How many toilets? How many chases? Why over exaggerate?

I don't  know how many pills, I only heard about one toilet and one chase.  As I said, I think she was discredited without even going into these more bizarre stories.   

I do agree with you that the "sentence didn't fit."

The only justification I see for her stiff sentence is to protect the public.  A frivolous lawsuit can be extremely expensive for the defendent.  I believe, however, that once she was barred from filing lawsuits the public was protected. 

Does Mrs. Baumgartner have appeals at the Federal level?  If she loses there does that mean that whole system is corrupt also?

Bryan Dubois

H2009 said: 

How and why did you form your prejudicial opinion of my opinion?  I understand why 411 was reluctant to get into this issue.  It is like a philosophical puzzle, how do we know anything?

It's not a philosophical puzzle.  I was there - and that's how I know what happened.  

This isn't a story of "good vs. evil"  "right against wrong"  or  "good vs. bad"  -- it's a story of  "wrong vs. wrong."

Huron2009

I think you have gone above and beyond in explaining your relationship with Mrs. Baumgartner.  For what it is worth, I believe you had honorable intentions and reacted reasonably to an unreasonable situation. 

underthebridge

What are your thoughts about how Baxter's brothers play into this mess with Baumgartner?  And of course, what about Nuesse?  

 

Julie R.

My case was one unlawful conspiracy and scam after another to conceal the fact had it not been for attorneys (one a retired Erie County judge) my case never would have been. What these two attorneys, a Huron bank and an insurance company did went beyond fraud---- it was flat-out criminal.

I also know of two unethical Judges in this county who have gone out of their way to flaunt how dishonest and unfair they were being and I also believe the motive was to try and make certain parties lose their temper and call them (the judges) corrupt or something. Happy to say the Elsebeth Baumgartner tactic didn't work.

So  tell me, John Doe, is this going to be the new precedent for corrupt Erie County-----anybody that dares to make legitimate complaints against attorneys (especially one from a big swanky law firm in Lorain County)  is going to be "as nutty as Elsebeth Baumgartner"?

Julie R.

You say the only justification for Baumgartner's stiff sentence is to protect the public from expensive lawsuits.......

Is that supposed to be a joke or did you forget about the million dollar plus spent so far on the Nuesse circus?

Bryan Dubois

You're mistaken.  I never said that.  Go back and re-read it.

Underthebridge,

Lots of interesting things to say about this....will get to it...

Bryan Dubois

For the record:

Do you think that your case is of public interest because it affects how we view our court system?

If so, and you'd like to tell your story from start to finish using actual court documents and proof of your allegations, contact me at firelands411@yahoo.com

If you don't contact me, that means you have no interest in actually telling your story in a way that people can understand it.  I'm simply going to assume that you want to attack the court system because you're a disgruntled probate litigant who didn't get what she wanted in court.

Julie R.

How can somebody be a "disgruntled probate litigant" when a Court unlawfully ignores Complaints from the get-go because they know the Complaints are legitimate? The two joke hearings (if you want to call them that) in which two judges flaunted how dishonest and unfair they were being wasn't even in reference to the Complaints that were filed. They were more like "let's create some other stupid issues to take away from the real serious issue in this case". 

As the head honchos of a title company said "How in the hel! did the Erie County Courts ever get away without ever addressing any of these complaints"? Good question.  Especially since the title search on property showed all the Complaints  were legitimate-----including Probate records that showed a Will (choke) that wasn't even filed until two years after the decedent's death was never even probated.

Elsebeth Baumgartner might have gone about things the wrong way but one thing she wasn't-----she was not a liar.

Bryan Dubois

Julie R. asks:

How can somebody be a "disgruntled probate litigant" when a Court unlawfully ignores Complaints from the get-go because they know the Complaints are legitimate?

Again, the public will never know whether the complaints were legitimate because you don't tell the whole story from start to finish with evidence.  What is your motivation behind posting incomplete information on the internet?

 

Julie R.

How old are all the players that were purported to be in the Baumgartner case? Chief Justice Moyer is 70. The retired judges are 90 or better, aren't they? The crook prosecutors in her case are no spring chickens, either. So do you really think that Baumgartner is going to serve a full 8 years in prison?

Also, where is Joe Baumgartner? Was he banned from this discussion?

Cross

Julie, why do you sometimes reference yourself in the third person? Anyways, there's a big difference between Nuesse and Baumgartner.

Kim Nuesse was wrongly fired and is winning in the PR arena, the courts, and will probably triumph. Based on polls she could probably win a commissioner seat.

Baumgartner appears to have had a few legit issues, but they were buried by her wild stunts, narcissim, and illegal acts. It's a shame a person as intelligent as she was ended up incarcerated. She is in jail due to her own actions, though, make no mistake.

There is no comparison here. One is a law abiding wronged person who shows respect and is doing things in the proper manner. The other is a grandstanding sociopath who is rightly in jail and I hope does not get early release.

I'm not a big fan of 411 or the Regurgitator, but kudos for addressing this issue. The Baumgartner story is like a train wreck. It's pretty bad, but one can't avert their eyes. There isn't any real news here, but it's great conspiracy theory crazy person fodder.

Bryan Dubois

I understand you're not a big fan of this site or the Regurgitator, but I agree entirely with your assessment of the difference between Nuesse and Baumgartner.  There really is no fair comparison.  It's not even fair to mention the two names in the same sentence.

 

Oliver Hardy

I didn't want this particular thread that Firelands411 started to get off topic. My intent was to ask a few questions to Firelands411. Firelands411 did write: "If you ask a question about the subject matter out of curiosity and good faith, I'll answer it.  I won't answer questions that are obviously coming from people who have already formed an opinion and are only using the opportunity to lash out." I see that this particular topic has expanded to go beyond what Firelands411 had intended. Sorry Firelands411, I apologize as this was not my intent either.

When I get the time, I will start up a topic on the SR forums so people can comment further without taking your thread off topic. Again my apologies Firelands411. I did not want this topic to get out of hand. Participation from other people have only formulated more questions from me and others.

My last questions to you on this topic are:
When did you start up Erie Voices?
When did you first meet Elsebeth Baumgartner and why?
Did you start up "erievoicestoo" on the internet?

Again my apologies, Firelands411. It was not my intent to take your latest blog off subject. I will start up a thread on the SR forums soon if people want to expand beyond the topic of how you fit into the topic of Elsebeth Baumgartner. I will also post more questions or comments there that I had formulated by what I read here.

Again, my apologies Firelands411. I hope that people can get back to keeping this particular blog on topic.

Bryan Dubois

When did you start up Erie Voices?

June 2004.

When did you first meet Elsebeth Baumgartner and why?

She contacted me after I wrote about June Judge Ann Maschari on the internet.

Did you start up "erievoicestoo" on the internet?

No.  I don't know who started it, but it appears to be an attempt to recreate the Erie Voices website after I removed it from the internet.

Buckeye04

Here is a link to Baumgartner's latest filing at the State Supreme Court, www.sconet.state.oh.us/tempx/642661.pdf 

 

 

Poll of the day....

Is cuddling cheating? 

John Doe

As I mentioned in an earlier thread on 411 (and even earlier threads on SR web site), I have chosen to ignore Julie R's comments, especially towards me.  She has become belligerent (warlike), unreasonable and generally regarded as untrustworthy because she has failed to produce evidence of her accusations.  I have asked (and I'll admit in a rather sarcastic way) to, "Show me the evidence Baby" and she chooses to ignore that which is fine.  411, she won't take you up on your offer because "Remove Johnson" gave her pointers on starting her own blog to show evidence of what she is spewing, and she either completely ignored him or attacked him (I can't remember, because she did both to several bloggers; it's hard to keep them straight and I don't want to waste time going back and trying to find it). 

411, I'll bet my JOB that she won't take you up on your offer because she has been doing this for MONTHS and she has had other bloggers offering her help with her situation to post the evidence, but she repeatedly ignores that advice.  So, you are wasting your time.

She's another Elsabeth Baumgartner.  Don't waste your time.  Stay clear of her.  If she wants to get her evidence out, let her do it on her own blog, not yours.  She's had her chance and she blew it.

STAY AWAY FROM JULIE R ! ! ! ! !   DON'T EVEN RESPOND TO HER BS because she has had PLENTY of opportunities to give her complaints factual support and has refused.  She is just like EB! !  Stay away from her! ! ! ! 

Julie R.

Why don't you dry up? You sound as nutty as the Erie County legal system! Are you from the twilight zone, too?

Julie R.

Elsebeth Baumgartner's case sounds like something straight out of a John Grisham novel but that doesn't surprise me in the least. That's the way Erie County works----to cover up the real issue in a case they create a half a dozen other ones!

I

You never fail to let me down!

Cross

I apologize for tangenting this discussion away from 411's gracious answering of Elsebeth questions, but Julie R being here unfortunately has started a tangent away from facts and discourse to her/his own oasis of self absorprtion.

Unfortunately, Julie R doesn't realize he comes across like this this while posting.

 

 

 

Julie R.

"There's no excuse for ignorance of the law unless our ignorant attorney brothers and/or retired judges break it . If they do we then have the right to feign ignorance of the law to protect them".

With the of exception of disbarred attorney Elsebeth Baumgartner.

Boggle

You've asked questions that have been answered.  Here's my question for you:

Have you ever MET Elsebeth Baumgartner?  I mean, MET her.  Do you KNOW her?  Have you actually listened to her for more than five minutes?  Have you met her on several occasions and had lengthy discussions with her? 

If not, please shut your trap.  You are so annoying.  People are tap dancing around hurting your feelings.  If' you've spoken with her at all, you know the KKK hood story, the clogging the toilet in Ottawa County, the pill popping incident.  You know that she knows SOMETHING about EVERYONE who holds political office.  You know that she is over the top and became undefendable.  She put herself right where she is by being so outlandish that noone could come to her defense. 

Unfortunately, you sound just like her.  For your own credibility, I hope you answer my question.  Somehow, I think you'll just glaze right over it.

Julie R.

I couldn't get on this blog earlier so I posted on Matt Westerhold's  Please Don't Say Transparent blog. Maybe John Doe and others would like to answer the question? Also, no matter how many of you people get on here and try to discredit Julie R. with the conspiracy nonsense and the juvenile pictures it's not going to work. Everything that has been posted about that case has been the truth.

Julie R.

You ask if I have ever met Elsebeth Baumgartner? My answer is no. I never even knew that much about her until I started reading the SR blogs and then other things posted on the internet. And boy was I ever surprised when I found out she was sentenced in the jurisdiction of Cuyahoga County. I was even more surprised when  I saw the mention of a certain Lorain County law firm.

Also, it's obvious that you and most of the rest on here were involved in some way with the Baumgartner case. So considering how we have heard all of your sides to the story why now allow Joe Baumgartner to tell his side?

Cross

There goes Julie R speaking in the third person again.

Since wild conspiracy theories prevail, I'm going to say Julie R. is actually a few friends/family of Elsebeth solely coming here to cause trouble and post craziness in the best traditions of our Else.

I think Julie R is a shared account for several people, with the actual meaning of the login  Joo Lie R<egister>. You lie register.

I've cracked the code! Where's my tinfoil hat, now?

Boggle

If you have not met her, please do not go into full on support mode.  It takes a normal person about 20 minutes to figure out that she's toxic.  It also sounds like you're jumbling up years and years of her rants.  The Lorain County law firm had nothing to do with her Cuyahoga County conviction.

Regarding Joe Baumgartner, you would obviously support criminals' spouses communicating with victims.  Joe Baumgartner is free to talk and tell his side of the story.  He can leave comments, start his own blog, even his own newspaper.  He can write a book for that matter.  Leaving comments on this blog would seem unwise to me.  Considering where his wife is, it wouldn't seem prudent in my opinion.

Julie R.

WOW! Look who's talking about conspiracy theorists now! Sorry, but I don't know Elsebeth Baumgartner and this is not a shared account. John Doe knows who I am.  So does the Probate Court, the Common Pleas (Binette), the Erie County Auditor, the Recorder, Sheriff Lyons.......I mean considering all the complaints that were filed (and incidentally ignored)  they should know.......unless there are numerous other dishonest and unfair cases just like it. Which wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Cross

You still refuse to answer why you reference yourself in the third person.

How can you expect to solve all the universe's legal problems if you can't answer one teensy question.

 

Oliver Hardy

Bob Dole often referred to himself as a third person. Please take your comments to the topic that I have started about Elsebeth onto the forums. Please allow firelands411 to put his energy into new topics.

Cross

Bob Dole is a war hero who in an eccentric manner referred to himself via the third person.

Also, I doubt he did it in writing. Julie R's actions and posts indicate she is a they, and they are likely the clan of Heaven's Gate of Elsebeth or something.

I post frequently on the forums. Forgive me if I continue to also post here while this topic is baking in the oven of public discourse.

In other words, no.

F411 can continue to blog and read and respond to the fun here, or not if he chooses. Free will is a grand thing.

 

Boggle

Well said.

Oliver Hardy

Boogle wrote: "If you have not met her, please do not go into full on support mode.  It takes a normal person about 20 minutes to figure out that she's toxic.  It also sounds like you're jumbling up years and years of her rants.  The Lorain County law firm had nothing to do with her Cuyahoga County conviction."

Boogle, I have started up a forum topic on the SR forums. Please post your comments there if you have the balls to do so. I have a lot of questions for you.

Boggle

I see your post on the forums, but it appears to stop abruptly.  Did you mean to stop it after your quotes for Karl Hungus?  It started off sounding like you meant to ask questions.  What are your remaining questions for 411?  Who cares if others are chiming in?  If you are interested in 411's answers, ask the questions.  I'd like to see the dialogue.  What are your questions for me?  I'm happy to answer them.  I don't think balls are required to meet anyone on an internet forum or blog.  Where shall we begin? 

Oliver Hardy

You asked "Where shall we begin? "

To begin go to the SR FORUMS. THIS blog became a train wreck..

I have questions for you on the forums. Firelands411 set the dialogue for his blog.

Any questions for YOU will be asked on the SR forums.

Boggle

Look, Oliver, I went to your forum post and didn't see any questions listed that were directed to me.  No need to get hostile with me when you haven't initiated your questions. 

Oliver Hardy

Wow Boggle,

Two questions to you. Do you belong to the "Dumbing Down Of America" group?
Do you search for directions on a roll of toilet paper to see how to use it?

I rest my case.

FYI, I have started up a topic on the SR Forums. Go there to ask questions or post your comments. Enough said, OK? Or should I post how to use your roll of toilet paper?

Julie R.

Once again, Julie R. is not a "they". I refer to myself in the 3rd person probably because my real name is not Julie R.  

Once again, I do not know Elsebeth Baumgartner but from my own personal experience with this County's dishonest, unfair and unlawful legal system I believe that Elsebeth Baumgartner was a victim of one of the most horrendous travesties of justice there ever was.  My opinion........and you and nobody else will ever change it.

Cross

Julie, in your opinion did Elsebeth do anything wrong?

bsps tu 1978

It appears to me that the open discussion on Firelands 411 seems to be one-sided.  John Doe and Cross are having conversation with each other, but if you look at their writing styles, you might come to the conclusion that they are both the same person, namely, Bryan.

If someone else comments to the contrary, they are insulted, and sometimes banned.  Not knowing all of the details, how can Elsebeth Baumgartner defend herself when she is in Marysville partly for intimidating her former co-worker and co-owner of the Erie Voices Blog.  He has gone so far as not allowing Mrs. Baumgartner's husband, Joe to reply to any comments, many of which are false if you go back and check the facts.

I do recall that Mr. Baumgartner gave a check to Mr. DuBois for $15,000 and the check was made out to an attorney named Jay Milano.  I believe the check was cashed by Mr. Milano and used to defend Mr. Dubois.  I also recall that when Mr. DuBois filed for bankruptcy he referred to the $15,000 as a loan.  How can this be the case for both.

The last thing that bothers me is how well Bryan recalls the courtroom sequence when Baumgartner took blood pressur pills.  His "facts" were incorrect.  He even had the wrong medication.  I also know that he and Mrs. Baumgartner had worked together for quite some time and that she had a diabetic dog.  That would explain why a syringe was in her purse, and I believe Mr. Baumgartner had the purse when the deputy reached into it.  I believe that he would have an idea of what transpired that day, but he is not allowed to write any about it.

Mr. Baumgartner still has a drugstore in Pemberville, Ohio.  Maybe some people should contact him to get his side of the story.  Every story has at least two sides to it.

Cross


Hi "Julie R".

 I've been posting here in the Forums under 'Richard', and comments as Cross for quite some time. I merged the two usernames when the forums were redone.
It's pretty apparent I'm not John Doe or F411.  Most people are here to discuss things. I'll be glad to sit down in real life and discuss who I am if you'd like.

Bryan Dubois

It appears to me that the open discussion on Firelands 411 seems to be one-sided.  John Doe and Cross are having conversation with each other, but if you look at their writing styles, you might come to the conclusion that they are both the same person, namely, Bryan.

They're not.  I don't log in under different names to answer my own questions.  That's intellectually dishonest and another reason I didn't approve of some of the tactics used on the old Erie Voices website.

If someone else comments to the contrary, they are insulted, and sometimes banned. 

I try not insult people, but if you take diagreement as an insult - then I guess I'm insulting you.  You will cause a debate if you say something illogical, incorrect or just plain stupid on this blog.  It's called robust debate and if you don't like it - don't read this site, and don't leave comments.

Not knowing all of the details, how can Elsebeth Baumgartner defend herself when she is in Marysville partly for intimidating her former co-worker and co-owner of the Erie Voices Blog. 

This is one of the reasons I didn't want to bring up this topic.  Baumgartner is in prison, and since she's not here to defend herself we shouldn't be talking about her.  Likewise, since I'm involved in the case and I offer my memories of what happened I will be attacked by people who don't agree with the outcome.  Since those people are likely associated with Baumgartner - and she's not allowed to have contact with my family nor compel third parties to contact me - it's an unfair set up.

But...

If I don't address the issues, people think I'm hiding something.

So what should I have done? 

He has gone so far as not allowing Mrs. Baumgartner's husband, Joe to reply to any comments, many of which are false if you go back and check the facts.

Of course you are free to believe whatever you like.  If you believe that there are two sides to every story then by that logic my story is just as valid as his.

I do recall that Mr. Baumgartner gave a check to Mr. DuBois for $15,000 and the check was made out to an attorney named Jay Milano.  I believe the check was cashed by Mr. Milano and used to defend Mr. Dubois.  I also recall that when Mr. DuBois filed for bankruptcy he referred to the $15,000 as a loan.  How can this be the case for both.

I'm afraid you have your facts mixed up.  Since this will undoubtedly turn into a back and forth, it is unfair to argue directly with parties who have been or are under the influence of people who have been convicted of crimes involving my family, I won't address this directly.

The last thing that bothers me is how well Bryan recalls the courtroom sequence when Baumgartner took blood pressur pills.  His "facts" were incorrect. 

The sequence is exactly how I remember them.  If you know of the events differently you must've been in the courtroom with us.  If so, offer your version of the events and we'll see if there's any substantive difference between the two. 

He even had the wrong medication.  I also know that he and Mrs. Baumgartner had worked together for quite some time and that she had a diabetic dog.  That would explain why a syringe was in her purse...

But it wouldn't explain why the needle was exposed...

and I believe Mr. Baumgartner had the purse when the deputy reached into it. 

That's not true.  The purse was accessible at the defendent's table and Joe was sitting in the spectator's section behind the defendent's table when she popped the pills. 

I believe that he would have an idea of what transpired that day, but he is not allowed to write any about it.

There wouldn't be any substantive differences between his version of the day and mine.  We were both in the courtroom at the same time. 

Mr. Baumgartner still has a drugstore in Pemberville, Ohio. 

Good for him.  I always thought Joe was a good, decent, hardworking person.  Unfortunately, his wife controlled too much of the situation and dragged him into situations he wasn't equipped to deal with.  If she had listened to her husband's wisdom early on, none of this would've happened.

Maybe some people should contact him to get his side of the story.  Every story has at least two sides to it.

Of course.  Carry on...

Bryan Dubois

The mark of a truly disturbed individual:  No amount of evidence will ever change my mind!

So I'm going to post this advice:

...unless you're going to bring it back on topic, of course.

Buckeye04

Mr DuBois.  The purse was if fact in Mr Baumgartner,s hands when the deputy blindly reached into the bag and pulled out an insulin syringe from a diabetic dog.  Do you really think the deputy would have given he bag back to Mr Baumgartner if he had stuck himself with the "dangerous insulin needle".  Mr Baumgartner left with the purse. You need to rethink this.   We need to poll the witnesses that were in the courtroon that day.                                                                     

Bryan Dubois

Hoooooookay. 

Poll the witnesses. 

Each one will testify to the fact that she popped a handful of pills, announced that she overdosed - and after she was taken away for medical attention a Cuyahoga County Deputy Sheriff stuck his hand with a needle from inside her purse.

It felt like an episode of Law and Order.  If I can't tell you what color the carpet was inside the courtroom or where the purse was after this all transpired, chalk it up to the fact that it was one of the most bizarre experiences of my life.

Julie R.

Wow! Did this ever turn into a mess!

Once again and for the record, Cross, I do not know Elsebeth Baumgartner or anybody in her family. Neither does anybody post under Julie R. but me. Neither do I post  under any other name but Julie R.  Neither do I know the identity of any of the commenters on here with the exception of 411 but I do have my suspicions as to who John Doe is. Could be right but then I could be wrong.

As to why I formed my opinion that Elsebeth Baumgartner was railroaded----I think I have told why a hundred times over and I'm not going to repeat it again.  I also will never change my opinion about Elsebeth Baumgartner..........and for absolute certain I will never change my opinion about this County's corrupt legal system.

 

Bryan Dubois

Okay...guys, I think we're the butt of a pretty good hoax.  Anybody with me on this?

Cross

Since you are obviously me, I'm forced to concur with myself that this is all an elaborate ploy.

Julie R.

Oh, come on , Mr. DuBois----looks who is being a conspiracy theorist now. John Doe knows who I am. Didn't he say somebody from the courthouse told him?  And if John Doe knows who I am then he also knows everything I have said about this county is the truth!  And I haven't even told it all. You and John Doe aren't doing anybody a favor by hiding corruption or calling people "conspiracy theorists and as nutty as Elsebeth Baumgartner".

Bryan Dubois

Well this hoax has gone on long enough and I admit that I really thought you were serious.  :)  Good one.  I used to get a kick out of flaming people - and it does take skill to keep them going.  You have to back off just a tad or people catch on.  :)  Good one though.  Once I realized what you were doing I had to laugh.  This is the line where you gave it away:  I also will never change my opinion about Elsebeth Baumgartner..........and for absolute certain I will never change my opinion about this County's corrupt legal system.

John Doe

Count me in Brother ! ! ! !    I'm with ya! ! !

Now Brother, about that family meeting...........................................

John Doe

YES! !   Now everyone can see that all three of us agree with ourselves! ! ! !  This is indeed astonishing ! !  (It is bloody scary too wouldn't you say there O'le Cross, O'le boy?).    Think about it;  all three of us, separate individuals, yet one (because Julie R and a few others say so) all have the same opinon!  Now how many times has THAT happened in society where 3 people had the same opinon?   Not very often, and yet, you have it right here on this very blog! !   Simply AMAZING! ! ! ! ! ! !

Julie R.

You claim you know who Julie R. is and if so then you must know her case is totally unrelated to the Baumgartner case. So why don't you name one thing that Julie R. has said in these blogs that isn't the truth? Can you?

I also know that this County's legal system is using the Baumgartner case to its full unlawful advantage. People are being prohibited from filing legitimate complaints because of fraudulent acts committed by attorneys. Well, they don't really PROHIBIT the filing of complaints because they know they can't do that. They prohibit and violate a person's rights instead by refusing to address the complaints. Would you consider this to be unethical, dishonest, unfair or would this be considered illegal? 

Bryan Dubois

John Doe, Cross, and myself:  How are you three doing tonight? 

Myself:  I'm doing fine.  Thanks for asking!

Cross:  How have things been going?

Myself:  Oh good.  You know, living the dream.

John Doe:  Good, good.  Glad to hear that.

Oliver Hardy

Wow, 68 posts!

I abandoned this blog because it went off topic. I had about 50 more questions for 411 but they can wait for now. John Doe wrote: " Now how many times has THAT happened in society where 3 people had the same opinon?   Not very often, and yet, you have it right here on this very blog! !   Simply AMAZING! ! ! ! ! ! !

Mr. Doe, Have you read the signatures on the Bill Of Rights, The Declaration Of Independence and other documents? What about the agreements of all those in favor in the Congressional Record? Mr. Doe, I have come to the conclusion that you belong to the Dumbing Down Of America crowd.

Bryan Dubois

Oliver,

I'm sorry for not answering your questions.  If I get too many at once I admit that I pick and choose which ones I answer based on which ones I think are relevent.

Sorry.

Which ones didn't I answer?

John Doe

You take me WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. 

That last post of mine was a little sarcastic humor.

Julie R.

Oliver Hardy is right. This blog has turned into a train wreck so why don't you shut it down? It 's beginning to sound like the blog with Buff & Company and their grade-school Christmas carols about Elsebeth and her husband.

Oliver Hardy seems to have a lot of common sense. Even though I can see a distinct unfair pattern in the Baumgartner case and my own Probate case, ( to a much lesser degree of course ) I will not "cheapen" Oliver Hardy's forum by taking away from the topic of Elsebeth but I will be anticipating your answers to his questions.

One more thing------as I have stated numerous times I never even knew that much about the Baumgartner case until I started reading the SR blogs,  which I believe was right about the time Kim Nuesse was fired. So sorry,  but you are wrong once again, because  my opinion of the Erie County legal system was well before that.

Julie R.

Like it or not Bryan DuBois and his buddies have proven my point. I noticed how they all brought up the so-call idiosyncrasies of Elsebeth Baumgartner----none of which were criminal----but nobody brought up Baumgartner's allegations of corruption that were criminal.

This is exactly how the Eeeeerie County legal system worked in my   case. Instead of addressing the real issue of criminal acts committed by attorneys and others right from the start they created a half a dozen other issues in the form of scams and conspiracies to cover it up!

This County is a joke-----only the joke isn't funny.

John Doe

I have already stated (for the record) how I supported EB and believed in what she was doing for the most part in this forum thread as well as other threads over the past couple of years on SR blogs.   It wasn't that I didn't agree with the basis of her legal system corruption theories; it was her tatics and behavior that I grew to object to.  The way she went about fighting this "war" was completely wrong.  Read the above thread that I reference to get my full take on it.

I also know that Mr. Dubois feels the same way in many respects that I do; after all we are 2 separate people, yet one (according to Buckeye04, Julie R and a few others).  The way I know he and I are like minded is because I have discussed this (in person) in the past with Mr. Dubois (because we are brothers and we talk alot about  "family business.").

As for Cross, even though he is part of me.....and Mr Dubois.....and.........that makes me and Mr. Dubois part of Cross.......and Mr. Dubois part of me and Cross..........(again according to Buckeye04 & Julie R and a few others).......but he isn't a brother, but he could be.......or perhaps a cousin.......or aunt, uncle, niece or nephew........I can tell by his posts that he is of the same opinion as Mr. Dubois and myself.   (Geez, this is so complicated; I hope I got that right !).

Cross

In all likelihood some of her allegations of corruption were valid. Nobody is arguing that point. As someone who has lived in many places, there is a lot of corruption out there. Sadly, most of it is either legal or entrapped in the good ole boy network. However, she also filed a lot of documents that attacked a lot of people without proof.  She initially made a good point, but it was lost due to her actions.

The problem here Julie R. is you forgive her illegal behavior because she initially had a good point. I've asked you twice before and you've failed to answer, Do you have any problems with anything Elsebeth did?

The bottom line is the ends does not justify the means, and the problem here is you see no wrong in Elsebeth's behavior, which really indiciates to me <us?> that there is either more to this story concerning yourself, or you really don't care to discuss this, and are just using this as a hoax.

I think this story is sad becase Elsebeth is a brilliant woman, and this resolution while just is a waste.

Anyways, this is probably my last post on this subject. While it has high entertainment factor, it's as dangerous as discussing abortion or religion due to the high amount of emotions it invokes, and without the chance of accomplishing much.

 

John Doe
YES ! ! !  AMEN BROTHER (or cousin, or niece, or nephew, or whatever).  I couldn't agree with you more!  You hit the nail squarely on the head with that post! ! !  GREAT post! 

But then, I'm only saying that because he is me, and I am him............or something like that...................

Julie R.

I noticed how you are avoiding my questions. You claim somebody at the courthouse told you who Julie R. is so please name one thing that has been said that isn't the truth. (and I haven't even told it all) Also, how does a victim of theft through criminal acts committed by attorneys and others  (including two financial institutions) make the victim of the theft "a conspiracy theorist and heading down the same path as Elsebeth Baumgartner"?

Sorry, but  nobody will ever convince me that Baumgartner wasn't railroaded because I know first-hand how  corrupt the legal system in Erie County is.

 

Julie R.

You say that in all liklihood  some of Baumgartner's allegations of corruption were probably valid.......

SOME ? I'm willing to bet it was ALL.

You ask if I have a problem with anything Elsebeth Baumgartner did? No, I do not. But I sure have a problem with the Erie County legal system. When you have elected judges in a county (two anyway) that actually FLAUNT how dishonest and unfair they are-----sort of like "I'm the judge and I can do anything I want  and there's nothing you can do about it"-----you're living in a County that's flat-out corrupt!