Ask Away

Bryan Dubois
Mar 23, 2010

I understand that some people are curious about my previous relationship with Elsebeth Baumgartner.  Initially I didn't want to get into that subject matter because it creates an endless back and forth type argument that serves no purpose.  However, I realize some people have legitimate concerns or curiosity, and with clear answers their concerns can be addressed.

Oliver Hardy suggested that I allow people to ask their questions, but I do have a few issues with the request:

Please consider the bizarre legal implications created by interacting with the spouse of the person who was convicted of intimidating my family.  Interacting with that person in any sense - especially over the internet - is extremely unwise.  I'm not going to do it. 

So I'll make a deal with all readers:

If you ask a question about the subject matter out of curiosity and good faith, I'll answer it.  I won't answer questions that are obviously coming from people who have already formed an opinion and are only using the opportunity to lash out.

Deal?

Oliver, ask away.

Comments

Oliver Hardy

Wow Firelands411, I am impressed. You just scored some points with me. I understand your concerns about people lashing out at you. The only information that I have about you and Elsebeth Baumgartner is what I read in the newspapers and what I read online. I don't believe everything that I read in the newspapers and online. I will try to remain neutral here and not take sides, OK?

First question is the most recent one that I formulated when Joe Baumgartner had commented on Matt's blog which was later deleted. I did see his comments only briefly. Joe mentioned that he gave you $15,000 to defend his wife and you against charges. Did Joe give you $15,000? If Joe did not give you $15,000, where did you get the money to defend yourself? I will try to keep my questions brief but at the same time hope that you and others understand them. I have other questions also.

Thanks for allowing me to ask questions on your blog. I know that I am taking a risk here and going out on a limb by asking you questions. I don't feel that by asking questions to get at the truth should be risky. Do you? But one never knows.

 

Bryan Dubois

Oliver's question: 

Joe mentioned that he gave you $15,000 to defend his wife and you against charges. Did Joe give you $15,000? If Joe did not give you $15,000, where did you get the money to defend yourself? I will try to keep my questions brief but at the same time hope that you and others understand them. I have other questions also.

Response: 

I was given $15,000 from Joe Baumgartner for part of a retainer fee for attorney Jay Milano in Cuyahoga County.  The agreement was that Jay Milano was my attorney.  The fee was volunteered because she owed me the money from monies I had previously paid for her cause.  Baumgartner never contacted Milano nor had any conversations with him, which makes her allegation odd if she actually believed that Milano had been retained to defend her.

John Doe

411 -

I think opening this up the way you are will help clear up MANY misconceptions that people have about that entire situation.  I commend you for doing this.

I have a few questions:

1)  When did you begin to realize that perhaps this relation with Elsabeth might not be a good one to be in and why?

2)  What was the "final straw" for you in deciding to get out of that relationship?

3)  Elsabeth had some very legit and serious concerns about corruption in our local (and perhaps state) government.  In my opinion, she just went about it completely wrong.  Your thoughts?

4)  Did the governement (State or County) shut down Erie Voices, or you?  If it was you, what was the deciding factor?

 

Bryan Dubois

John Doe questions:

1)  When did you begin to realize that perhaps this relation with Elsabeth might not be a good one to be in and why?

Seeing her reaction to my first indictment was troubling.  She actually rejoiced at the news which led me to question her motivations.   Leaving the situation was difficult after I was indicted and I felt compelled to stay in it because I believed that Baumgartner brought up some legit issues with the court system.  I admit that I was, shall we say, "slow on the uptake."   I acted like a politically awakened college student and we all know how annoying they can be.

2)  What was the "final straw" for you in deciding to get out of that relationship?

On December 12, 2005 Baumgartner attempted to overdose on prescription drugs in the middle of a court hearing.  At that point I threw up my hands and mouthed the words, "I'm done" to the prosecutor who I thoroughly despised at that point because I thought he was misusing his authority.  My opinion on many factors in the case have since changed.   Throughout the ordeal I defended her good points, but also chastised her for acting recklessly.  Through the entire ordeal I've always been on the side of truth - which leads me to your next question:

3)  Elsabeth had some very legit and serious concerns about corruption in our local (and perhaps state) government.  In my opinion, she just went about it completely wrong.  Your thoughts?

I think Baumgartner was right about the way the visiting judge and special prosecutor system is set up in Ohio.  In Erie County we've elected two judges who seem to be committed to getting that system under control so that it's not misused to ensure specific outcomes in political cases.  Tone and Binette have done a good job and I haven't heard any complaints about how they're running the courts.  Overall, I agree with you.

4)  Did the governement (State or County) shut down Erie Voices, or you?  If it was you, what was the deciding factor?

I shut down the site and removed it from the internet after a series of events led me to question the veracity of some of the content.  Sifting through the entire site to separate fact from fiction would've taken years and I had no interest in doing it given the huge emotional toll that the ordeal inflicted on my family.  Keep in mind that Baumgartner was using it as a tool to criminally attack my family.  The decision to take down the site was a simple decision to make. 

Julie R.

You say that Baumgartner had some legit and serious concerns about corruption in local government but she went about it all wrong. What EXACTLY does this mean-----did she forget to dot an i or cross a t in one of her filings?

 

 

Bryan Dubois

Karl, do you think I should answer that or even try to answer it?  Julie, the fact that you're asking this question reinforces my original opinion that creating this thread is a waste of time.

For the record:

Baumgartner is/was combative, belligerent (warlike), unreasonable and generally regarded as untrustworthy.  If you're looking for specific instances, I'd be happy to give them, but it would require a book.  And I don't have the time for that this afternoon - and even if I did I'm not sure that you are the kind of person who can be convinced of something once you've made up your mind.

In other words:

Waste Of Time.

 

Karl Hungus-Mr....

Wow, Julie R. must not be familiar with the Baumgartner method.

Julie R.

I can't recall ever reading anything about Baumgartner trying to overdose on prescription drugs during a court hearing. Is this information a matter of public record? 

You say that Joe Baumgartner gave you $15,000.00 because his wife owed you money from monies you previously paid for her cause. Considering how often Julie R. has been told to "show the evidence, baby", do you have the evidence that Elsebeth owed you money?

You say that Erie County has elected two judges---Tone and Binette--- who seemed to be committed to getting the system under control so it is not misused to ensure specific outcomes........I will defer comment on that one other than to say what a joke. About one anyway.

Karl Hungus-Mr....

Julie R.,

How long have you been in the area?  Mrs. Baumgartner's list of "questionable methods" could go on for half of this webpage.  It includes dressing up as a KKK member at the Court House, failing to stop for the local LEO's and OSP and leading them on a motor vehicle chase that finaly had ended by stops sticks, stopping up the toilets at the Ottawa County jail, I could go on and on.....  This is was all in the newspaper, Erie Voices, The North Country Gazette, and many other sources.  You can read about the overdose here,www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article

The questions is less about how right or wrong she was, it is more like, why did she have to act so looney?

So Firelands 411, why do you think she acted in this manner?

 

Bryan Dubois

Julie R's question: 

I can't recall ever reading anything about Baumgartner trying to overdose on prescription drugs during a court hearing. Is this information a matter of public record? 

If you consider widely published newspaper articles "public record" then the answer to your question is "yes, it's a matter of public record."

 

 

My advice to you, Julie R., is to wonder silently, "what else don't I know?" Because it sounds to me that you're gathering information from non-credible sources on the internet.

You say that Joe Baumgartner gave you $15,000.00 because his wife owed you money from monies you previously paid for her cause. Considering how often Julie R. has been told to "show the evidence, baby", do you have the evidence that Elsebeth owed you money?

Julie, what evidence do you have that I'm not telling the truth?  Let's start there.  You are the one who didn't even know about the pill popping incident and when you found out you acted surprised.  I still believe that you're one of those people who already have a formed opinion, without knowing the facts.  The evidence I present wouldn't matter to you.  Why would I spend the time and effort?

Any other questions, folks?

Huron2009

Mrs. Baumgartner's story is a lesson to anyone interested in government accountability and corruption.  In my opinion it is informative to look at her situation for the courts point of view.  Consider this Decision and Judgement Entry from the Court of Appeals.  It becomes easy to see why the courts were able to justify their actions, she essentially accused everyone involved of corruption.  If there was a grain of truth to her campaign it was quickly lost in all the dramatics and legal side show.

The courts labelled her a "paper terrorist" for some of her comments.  She seems to have considered herself outside the courts jurisdiction because of their alleged corruption.  Without even getting into the pills, toilets, and low speed chases it was easy to discredit her.  If you are going to accuse the whole legal system up to and including the Chief Justice you better be loaded for bear. 

I feel bad for Mrs. Baumgartner, her sentence doesn't seem to fit the crime, but no one is above the law.

Oliver Hardy

Questions to Huron2009, Karl Hungus and John Doe. How and why did you form your prejudicial opinions about Elsebeth Baumgartner? Is it because of anything that you read in the newspapers, online or from comments posted on the news blogs?

Questions to Karl Hungus: You posted a link to the Toledo Blade.
Was the Toledo Blade reporter present at the Cuyahoga County Courthouse?
What "medication" did Baumgartner take if it was "unknown" as the article mentioned?
How can something "unknown" be called a "medication" or "pills" or were they maybe Tic Tacs?
Did the deputy seek medical treatment for the syringe that was "dangling from the middle of his palm?" From what I read of the Toledo Blade "news" article, the entire article was based on what Mr. Kasaris said. Where are the proven facts? Also you mentioned that Baumgartner dressed up as a "KKK member at the Court House."  Do you have the "news" source?
Mr. Hungus, do you believe everything that you read in the newspapers, Erie Voices, The North Country Gazette, and many other sources?

Questions to Huron2009: Why did you post that court document? Even Firelands411 agrees when he wrote "I think Baumgartner was right about the way the visiting judge and special prosecutor system is set up in Ohio."
You wrote: "she essentially accused everyone involved of corruption" EVERYONE? Are you stretching it?
You wrote: "pills, toilets, and low speed chases"  How many pills? How many toilets? How many chases? Why over exaggerate? I do agree with you that the "sentence didn't fit."

Questions to Firelands411: Why post the same thing that Mr. Hungus posted the link to? Is the "news" article all factual? Where is the proof in the "news" article?

Karl Hungus-Mr....

Mr, Hardy

I am not sure what evidence you really want, do we need a talking white rabbit that wears a top hat to regurgitate the same stories?

Dr. Baumgartner herself told me personaly about all of the stories I posted except for the toilet overflowing, she put it in a different term but to be honest I do not remember what she called it.  When asked about the syringes (I am sure I spelled that wrong) in her purse at the overdosing she said they were for her dog.  I have no reason not to believe that.  She also said that she overdosed to try to save her life.  Once again I have to believe that is what she was thinking at the time.

I have a feeling that you still will not be satisfied and will want video recorded evidence and 12 witnesses to confirm that I have meet Else.

Bryan Dubois

 

You guys are truly amazing.  I have answered these questions in earlier comments if you'd simply go back and read it.

Questions to Karl Hungus: You posted a link to the Toledo Blade.  Was the Toledo Blade reporter present at the Cuyahoga County Courthouse?

No he wasn't.  But I was.  And if you want this entire story just ask and I will tell you.  Stop acting like this is some kind of conspiracy to hold you from  the truth.

Questions to Firelands411: Why post the same thing that Mr. Hungus posted the link to? Is the "news" article all factual? Where is the proof in the "news" article?

The proof is witness testimony.  I was there.

What "medication" did Baumgartner take if it was "unknown" as the article mentioned?

It was high blood pressure medication and from my conversations with Baumgartner she was trying to cause a scene to get media attention on her case.  It worked:  The media reported it and they got the facts completely right.  For the record, this is exactly how I remember it:

Baumgartner fumbles around in her purse while the judge is talking.  She draws out a pill bottle and begins dumping pills into her hand.

Judge Saffold:  "Oh, no you're not taking any medications in my courtroom."

Baumgartner:  [nods head mouths quietly] "Oh yes I am."

Judge Saffold:  [motions to deputy to intervene]

Baumgartner:  [dumps pills into her mouth, gulps, raises hands over her head]  "I just overdosed."

Stunned silence in the courtroom.  I'm sitting within 3 feet of her and I refuse to look directly at her while she's doing this.  As soon as she makes her announcement I begin shaking my head.  I turn toward Dan Kasaris and mouth the words, "I'm done."

[Lots of shock here.  A little confusion on what's going to happen next.  The judge order the deputies to escort Baumgartner out for medical attention.  She leaves her purse at the table.]

Kasaris:  "Your honor, umm....we need to....we need to find out what she took so we can give her medical attention..."

Judge Saffold:  "Okay."

Deputy:  "Is it okay to go into the purse to find out what she took?"

Saffold:  "Yes."

Deputy:  [Turns to Joe Baumgartner who is sitting in the back of the courtroom and asks, "Is there anything in here that I need to know about?  Any sharp objects, syringes?"

Joe Baumgartner:  "No, not that I know of."  [I believe Joe was being honest here.  How was he supposed to know that his wife left an exposed syringe in the purse?]

Deputy:  [reaches into purse rummages around for a moment for the bottle and then draws his hand out.  Courtroom is again stunned to see that a smaller sized syringe is stuck into the deputies hand]  "SON OF A BITCH!"  [Deputy shakes his hand off to remove the syringe -- and as a theatrical touch the syringe flies toward the floor and sticks into the carpet like a lawn dart.]

The deputy freaks out about it and looks angrily at Joe.

Judge Saffold:  "Deputy, take yourself down to the infirmary and tell them what happened and ....[get tested]"


Also you mentioned that Baumgartner dressed up as a "KKK member at the Court House."  Do you have the "news" source?

We don't need a news source.  This is a story that Baumgartner volunteers to anyone who shows interest in her cause.

What's her cause?

My opinion:  Her cause wasn't government accountability.  Her cause was ego-driven: To get as much attention as possible as she travels down the road toward self destruction.  I was with her on that train and I jumped off before it was too late.  Some say I should've never boarded in the first place and then once I did, I rode it for way too long.  Those people were right.

Any  more questions?  (Cuz I think it's time to move on...)

Julie R.

Oliver Hardy is right. The entire article on the so-called "overdose" is based only  on what Prosecutor Dan Kasaris said.  The article says that Baumgartner startled courtroom observers by swallowing a handful of pills yet the press makes no effort to interview the "startled observers" to confirm what Kasaris said? I noticed the press didn't even bother confirming what Kasaris said with Judge Shirley Strickland Saffold (choke) or the deputy "who stuck his hand in Baumgartner's bag". The article doesn't even give the name of the deputy.

I don't believe it. I think if anything it was probably more like Baumgartner needed to take her blood pressure medicine and that's all there was to it.  I think every derogatory article that has ever been written about Baumgartner right from the start was either a flat-out lie or else highly exaggerated to take away the credibilty of what she was saying because what she was saying was the truth about ALL of them.   

Julie R.

So why isn't Joe Baumgartner participating? Has he been banned?  I would really like to hear his side of the story. I would like to hear EJay Baxter's side of the story, too. This one-sided crap certainly isn't fair.

Huron2009

Questions to Huron2009, Karl Hungus and John Doe. How and why did you form your prejudicial opinions about Elsebeth Baumgartner? Is it because of anything that you read in the newspapers, online or from comments posted on the news blogs?

How and why did you form your prejudicial opinion of my opinion?  I understand why 411 was reluctant to get into this issue.  It is like a philosophical puzzle, how do we know anything?

My first thoughts about Mrs. Baumgartner was concern that she was a victim of government retaliation.  I believe that there is significant government corruption and incompetence and I believe that some in power will use it to stay in power.  Parts of her story where pretty far out there but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. 

My opinion was largely formed outside the media or court records by the experience of an acquaintence of mine that was threatened with a lawsuit by Mrs. Baumgartner.  I will not name names or go into detail but in my opinion, here was a good person basically minding their own business who was being threatened with a lawsuit.  Fortunately nothing came of it but there was some genuine concern of the cost of being dragged into court for some perceived slight.  I don't know what Mrs. Baumgartner started out to be but I think she became a legal bully.  She may have been comfortable representing herself but like it or not, most regular Joe's need a lawyer to go to court and that costs a lot of money.  I think that is wrong and for me at least, undermined her credibility.

Our system is not perfect, but at some point you have a large number of elected (by We the People) and appointed officials and she is saying they are all corrupt.  In the case cited, four judges had already recussed themselves.  If I followed the logic provided, our system could never convict anyone of anything.  A child molester could claim conflict of interest because a judge loves kids.

Questions to Huron2009: Why did you post that court document? Even Firelands411 agrees when he wrote "I think Baumgartner was right about the way the visiting judge and special prosecutor system is set up in Ohio."

I posted the court document because it is another side of the story that doesn't get much attention.  I realize it may be biased but it is still an important perspective.  I believe in the rule of law.  I understand that it is often imperfectly applied but that does not mean you throw the whole system out.  Keep in mind this was an appeal to a higher court, not local judges that may have had personal involvement with this case.

Firelands411 included a very important phrase in his statement, "I think" which means that it is his opinion and he is entitled to it.  I do not know if the visiting judge and special prosecutor system is right or wrong.  There will be cases where the locals are conflicted and someone needs to be called in from the outside. 


You wrote: "she essentially accused everyone involved of corruption" EVERYONE? Are you stretching it?

Is there anyone involved in the prosecution of Mrs. Baumgartner that she did not accuse of corruption or some criminal act?  Was there not a single honest person in this entire group? 


You wrote: "pills, toilets, and low speed chases"  How many pills? How many toilets? How many chases? Why over exaggerate?

I don't  know how many pills, I only heard about one toilet and one chase.  As I said, I think she was discredited without even going into these more bizarre stories.   

I do agree with you that the "sentence didn't fit."

The only justification I see for her stiff sentence is to protect the public.  A frivolous lawsuit can be extremely expensive for the defendent.  I believe, however, that once she was barred from filing lawsuits the public was protected. 

Does Mrs. Baumgartner have appeals at the Federal level?  If she loses there does that mean that whole system is corrupt also?

Bryan Dubois

H2009 said: 

How and why did you form your prejudicial opinion of my opinion?  I understand why 411 was reluctant to get into this issue.  It is like a philosophical puzzle, how do we know anything?

It's not a philosophical puzzle.  I was there - and that's how I know what happened.  

This isn't a story of "good vs. evil"  "right against wrong"  or  "good vs. bad"  -- it's a story of  "wrong vs. wrong."

Huron2009

I think you have gone above and beyond in explaining your relationship with Mrs. Baumgartner.  For what it is worth, I believe you had honorable intentions and reacted reasonably to an unreasonable situation. 

underthebridge

What are your thoughts about how Baxter's brothers play into this mess with Baumgartner?  And of course, what about Nuesse?  

 

Julie R.

My case was one unlawful conspiracy and scam after another to conceal the fact had it not been for attorneys (one a retired Erie County judge) my case never would have been. What these two attorneys, a Huron bank and an insurance company did went beyond fraud---- it was flat-out criminal.

I also know of two unethical Judges in this county who have gone out of their way to flaunt how dishonest and unfair they were being and I also believe the motive was to try and make certain parties lose their temper and call them (the judges) corrupt or something. Happy to say the Elsebeth Baumgartner tactic didn't work.

So  tell me, John Doe, is this going to be the new precedent for corrupt Erie County-----anybody that dares to make legitimate complaints against attorneys (especially one from a big swanky law firm in Lorain County)  is going to be "as nutty as Elsebeth Baumgartner"?

Julie R.

You say the only justification for Baumgartner's stiff sentence is to protect the public from expensive lawsuits.......

Is that supposed to be a joke or did you forget about the million dollar plus spent so far on the Nuesse circus?

Bryan Dubois

You're mistaken.  I never said that.  Go back and re-read it.

Underthebridge,

Lots of interesting things to say about this....will get to it...

Bryan Dubois

For the record:

Do you think that your case is of public interest because it affects how we view our court system?

If so, and you'd like to tell your story from start to finish using actual court documents and proof of your allegations, contact me at firelands411@yahoo.com

If you don't contact me, that means you have no interest in actually telling your story in a way that people can understand it.  I'm simply going to assume that you want to attack the court system because you're a disgruntled probate litigant who didn't get what she wanted in court.

Julie R.

How can somebody be a "disgruntled probate litigant" when a Court unlawfully ignores Complaints from the get-go because they know the Complaints are legitimate? The two joke hearings (if you want to call them that) in which two judges flaunted how dishonest and unfair they were being wasn't even in reference to the Complaints that were filed. They were more like "let's create some other stupid issues to take away from the real serious issue in this case". 

As the head honchos of a title company said "How in the hel! did the Erie County Courts ever get away without ever addressing any of these complaints"? Good question.  Especially since the title search on property showed all the Complaints  were legitimate-----including Probate records that showed a Will (choke) that wasn't even filed until two years after the decedent's death was never even probated.

Elsebeth Baumgartner might have gone about things the wrong way but one thing she wasn't-----she was not a liar.

Bryan Dubois

Julie R. asks:

How can somebody be a "disgruntled probate litigant" when a Court unlawfully ignores Complaints from the get-go because they know the Complaints are legitimate?

Again, the public will never know whether the complaints were legitimate because you don't tell the whole story from start to finish with evidence.  What is your motivation behind posting incomplete information on the internet?

 

Julie R.

How old are all the players that were purported to be in the Baumgartner case? Chief Justice Moyer is 70. The retired judges are 90 or better, aren't they? The crook prosecutors in her case are no spring chickens, either. So do you really think that Baumgartner is going to serve a full 8 years in prison?

Also, where is Joe Baumgartner? Was he banned from this discussion?

Cross

Julie, why do you sometimes reference yourself in the third person? Anyways, there's a big difference between Nuesse and Baumgartner.

Kim Nuesse was wrongly fired and is winning in the PR arena, the courts, and will probably triumph. Based on polls she could probably win a commissioner seat.

Baumgartner appears to have had a few legit issues, but they were buried by her wild stunts, narcissim, and illegal acts. It's a shame a person as intelligent as she was ended up incarcerated. She is in jail due to her own actions, though, make no mistake.

There is no comparison here. One is a law abiding wronged person who shows respect and is doing things in the proper manner. The other is a grandstanding sociopath who is rightly in jail and I hope does not get early release.

I'm not a big fan of 411 or the Regurgitator, but kudos for addressing this issue. The Baumgartner story is like a train wreck. It's pretty bad, but one can't avert their eyes. There isn't any real news here, but it's great conspiracy theory crazy person fodder.

Bryan Dubois

I understand you're not a big fan of this site or the Regurgitator, but I agree entirely with your assessment of the difference between Nuesse and Baumgartner.  There really is no fair comparison.  It's not even fair to mention the two names in the same sentence.

 

Oliver Hardy

I didn't want this particular thread that Firelands411 started to get off topic. My intent was to ask a few questions to Firelands411. Firelands411 did write: "If you ask a question about the subject matter out of curiosity and good faith, I'll answer it.  I won't answer questions that are obviously coming from people who have already formed an opinion and are only using the opportunity to lash out." I see that this particular topic has expanded to go beyond what Firelands411 had intended. Sorry Firelands411, I apologize as this was not my intent either.

When I get the time, I will start up a topic on the SR forums so people can comment further without taking your thread off topic. Again my apologies Firelands411. I did not want this topic to get out of hand. Participation from other people have only formulated more questions from me and others.

My last questions to you on this topic are:
When did you start up Erie Voices?
When did you first meet Elsebeth Baumgartner and why?
Did you start up "erievoicestoo" on the internet?

Again my apologies, Firelands411. It was not my intent to take your latest blog off subject. I will start up a thread on the SR forums soon if people want to expand beyond the topic of how you fit into the topic of Elsebeth Baumgartner. I will also post more questions or comments there that I had formulated by what I read here.

Again, my apologies Firelands411. I hope that people can get back to keeping this particular blog on topic.

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