UPDATED BLOG: Perkins School Levy (with response from Perkins Superintendent)

Bryan Dubois
Oct 3, 2010

 

Allright, back to a local issue:

I'm being told by people who know people that this construction levy will allow the Perkins school board to raise taxes on Perkins residents at any time - without taking it to the community for a vote.  This will be possible because of the type of levy being proposed.  I'm told that this fact is not being made public for obvious reasons.

Is this true?

I've read through all the commentary under the articles on the Register - but don't see this mentioned anywhere.

Mostly, the pro-levy people are pushing this project to take advantage of federal money.  I don't see any explanation on how Perkins will afford to pay for long-term maintenance, utility, custodial support for the facility...

A message to disrespectful commenters (you know who you are):

What's with all the disrespect toward people who are asking honest questions about this issue?   If I were working on that levy campaign, I'd be tracking you down to tell you to knock it off.  I'd want this levy to pass or fail on its own merits - not because the water was muddied up by so-called supporters like you.  

Anyway, here's the exchange between myself and Perkins Superintendent Jim Gunner:

Gunner's response:

Bryan,

The direct answer is no, this is not true, but the complete answer is much more complicated.  The Perkins Board, nor any other school board in the State of Ohio, has the right to increase taxes at will without a vote of the community. 

 

What we have explained at public meetings will happen is the Perkins School District’s tax rate for continuous operating millage will be at the 20-mil floor.  Because a school system at the 20-mil floor is no longer subject to the effects of HB920 tax rate reductions, this may cause a homeowner’s overall school taxes paid to increase every three years after a reevaluation or triennial update if their property increases in value.  This potential modest increase in actual taxes paid every three years is not a result of the school board being arbitrarily able to increase taxes, but a reflection of the interaction of HB920 and the 20-mil floor permitting some inflationary growth in taxes collected when property valuations in a community grow.

With that said, there are certain circumstances, where legislation permits school districts to collect growth on increased total valuation in a community versus the traditional roll back of tax millage to collect the same total dollar amount across the community.  To explain this situation requires an understanding of HB920 passed in mid-1970s and another term called the 20-mil floor. 

HB920 was passed during a period of very high inflation, in many cases inflation rates annually exceeding 10%.  Prior to HB920 if the value of your house increased from one tax year to the next, you paid an overall increase in taxes equivalent to the increased value of your property times the tax rate at the time.  HB920 stopped this inflationary growth in property taxes.  Instead, HB920 required the county auditor to decrease the overall tax rate in a community to collect the same total dollars for the school district.  Thus limiting the inflationary growth in revenue for schools and requiring significantly more tax levies before a school community to keep up with inflationary costs.  Two exceptions to HB920 do apply: new construction and “Inside Millage”.  Districts receive the value of new construction the first time it is added to the tax duplicate, but in subsequent years it is part of the overall valuation of the community and subject to HB920.  A school district’s “Inside Millage” is not subject to HB920.  Property owners pay inflationary growth on this small millage that was originally given to school districts to operate without a vote of local communities during the 1800s.  In Perkins case, this is the 5.2 mils the Board of Education proposes to move to a construction fund for the new campus, if the community approves the November Levy.

HB920 comes in conflict with another portion of Ohio Revised Code when a district’s overall continuous operating millage reaches the 20-mil floor.  By law, a school community must assess itself a minimum of 20 mils of continuous operating levies for the general operation of a school district.  When a school district is at the 20-mil floor, the reduction of tax rates imposed by HB920 no longer applies.  In this case, as a house value increases in the community, the homeowner does not gain the reduction of millage rate normally associated with HB920, and as a result pays taxes on the increased value of their house as if HB920 was never approved by the legislature.  Over 60% of the school districts in the State of Ohio are at the 20-mil floor for continuous operating school levies.  If the November levy passes, and the Board moves the 5.2 mils of “Inside Millage” to a construction fund, Perkins will be at the 20-mil floor as well.

So what does this mean for the homeowner of Perkins?  That is best illustrated through examples. 

Let’s examine three cases where the overall community’s valuation increased by 2% from one year to the next during a tax reevaluation. The Perkins District current assessed valuation for residential and agricultural property is $270,000,000 with a continuous operating tax rate of approximately 25.2 mils which brings in $270,000,000 x .0252 = $6,804,000 before the homestead and primary residence reductions of 2-1/2% and 10% respectively.

A 2% increase in residential & agricultural property values means the district’s total valuation in this area would now equal $270,000,000 x 1.02 = $275,400,000.  Now the district by HB920 is entitled to the same $6,804,000 in revenue.  So the county auditor calculates a new overall tax rate or millage: $6,804,000 / $275,400,000 = 24.7 mils.  Everyone individual’s property is now assessed a rate of 24.7 mils, a decrease in the tax rate of approximately 0.5 mils as a result of the increased overall value in the community and HB920.

But what does that mean for the individual taxpayer?  Let’s look at the examples below:  Homeowner A actually saw no increase in the value of his/her home.  Homeowner B saw a 2% increase equal to the rate of increase for the overall community, and finally Homeowner C saw a 5% increase in the value of his property a higher rate than the overall community.

Homeowner A                             Homeowner B                             Homeowner C

$100,000 value                            $100,000 value                            $100,000 value

No Increase                                 2% increase in Value                  5% increase in value

Taxes Paid by each Homeowner before the Reevaluation for each homeowner:

$100,000        Market Value

       x   .35       Multiplied by 35% to calculate Assessed Value

$  35,000        Assessed Value of Home

    x .0252       Rate of Taxation

$        882       Taxes before Homestead (2.5%) and Primary Resident (10%) Exemptions

      x  .875       Reduction of taxes due to Homestead and Primary Resident Exemption

$ 771.75         Actual Taxes paid by all three homeowners before the reevaluation process.

Taxes Paid by each Homeowner AFTER the Reevaluation for each homeowner with HB920 in place.

Homeowner A:

$100,000        Market Value

       x   .35       Multiplied by 35% to calculate Assessed Value

$  35,000        Assessed Value of Home

    x .0247       New Rate of Taxation

$   864.50       Taxes before Homestead (2.5%) and Primary Resident (10%) Exemptions

      x  .875       Reduction of taxes due to Homestead and Primary Resident Exemption

$   756.44       Actual Taxes paid by Homeowner A after the reevaluation process.

Homeowner A would pay $771.75 - $756.44 = $15.31 LESS in taxes even though the value of their house remained the same.

Homeowner B:

$102,000        Market Value increased by 2%

       x   .35       Multiplied by 35% to calculate Assessed Value

$  35,700        Assessed Value of Home

    x .0247       New Rate of Taxation

$        882       Taxes before Homestead (2.5%) and Primary Resident (10%) Exemptions

      x  .875       Reduction of taxes due to Homestead and Primary Resident Exemption

$   771.75       Actual Taxes paid by Homeowner B after the reevaluation process..

Homeowner B would pay $771.75 - $771.75 = $0 increase in taxes because this house increased at the exact same rate as the rest of the community.

Homeowner C:

$105,000        Market Value increased by 5%

       x   .35       Multiplied by 35% to calculate Assessed Value

$  36,750        Assessed Value of Home

    x .0247       New Rate of Taxation

$   907.72       Taxes before Homestead (2.5%) and Primary Resident (10%) Exemptions

      x  .875       Reduction of taxes due to Homestead and Primary Resident Exemption

$   794.26       Actual Taxes paid by Homeowner C after the reevaluation process.

Homeowner C would pay $794.26 - 771.75 = $22.51 MORE in taxes because their house increased in value greater than the overall increase in the community.

In the HB920 example, taxes are shifted from homes with no growth to homes that grow in value at a pace faster than the community overall.  Everyone’s house is treated independently depending on the individual growth versus the growth of the community at large.

What happens if a district is at the 20-mil floor? 

Let’s do the same calculations again, but this time assume the original tax rate is 20 mils before the reevaluation of property in a community.

Let’s examine the same three cases where the overall community’s valuation increased by 2% from one year to the next during a tax reevaluation. The Perkins District current assessed valuation for residential and agricultural property is $270,000,000 within this example an assumed continuous operating tax rate of 20.0 mils, or at the 20-mil floor, which would bring in $270,000,000 x .0200 = $5,400,000 before the homestead and primary residence reductions of 2-1/2% and 10% respectively.

A 2% increase in residential & agricultural property values means the district’s total valuation in this area would now equal $270,000,000 x 1.02 = $275,400,000.  Since the district is as the 20-mil floor in this example, the county auditor does not adjust the tax rate by the increased value.  Instead, every taxpayer’s household is assessed at the same 20-mil rate as before.

But what does that mean for the individual taxpayer?  Let’s look at the examples below:  Homeowner A actually saw no increase in the value of his/her home.  Homeowner B saw a 2% increase equal to the rate of increase for the overall community, and finally Homeowner C saw a 5% increase in the value of his property a higher rate than the overall community.

Homeowner A                             Homeowner B                             Homeowner C

$100,000 value                            $100,000 value                            $100,000 value

No Increase                                 2% increase in Value                  5% increase in value

Taxes Paid by each Homeowner before the Reevaluation for each homeowner:

$100,000        Market Value

       x   .35       Multiplied by 35% to calculate Assessed Value

$  35,000        Assessed Value of Home

    x .0200       Rate of Taxation

$        700       Taxes before Homestead (2.5%) and Primary Resident (10%) Exemptions

      x  .875       Reduction of taxes due to Homestead and Primary Resident Exemption

$   612.50       Actual Taxes paid by each homeowner before the reevaluation process.

Taxes Paid by each Homeowner AFTER the Reevaluation for each homeowner if the district is at the 20-mil floor.

Homeowner A:

$100,000        Market Value

       x   .35       Multiplied by 35% to calculate Assessed Value

$  35,000        Assessed Value of Home

    x .0200       Rate of Taxation – No Change

$   700.00       Taxes before Homestead (2.5%) and Primary Resident (10%) Exemptions

      x  .875       Reduction of taxes due to Homestead and Primary Resident Exemption

$   612.50       Actual Taxes paid by Homeowner A after the reevaluation process.

Homeowner A would pay the exact same taxes before and after as their house did not grow in value.

Homeowner B:

$102,000        Market Value increased by 2%

       x   .35       Multiplied by 35% to calculate Assessed Value

$  35,700        Assessed Value of Home

    x .0200       Rate of Taxation

$  714.00        Taxes before Homestead (2.5%) and Primary Resident (10%) Exemptions

      x  .875       Reduction of taxes due to Homestead and Primary Resident Exemption

$   624.75       Actual Taxes paid by all Homeowner B after the reevaluation process.

Homeowner B would pay $624.75 - $612.50 = $12.25 MORE in taxes because this house increased in value during the reappraisal process and HB920 does not apply to roll back the tax rate when the district is at the 20-mil floor.

Homeowner C:

$105,000        Market Value increased by 5%

       x   .35       Multiplied by 35% to calculate Assessed Value

$  36,750        Assessed Value of Home

    x .0200       Rate of Taxation

$   735.00       Taxes before Homestead (2.5%) and Primary Resident (10%) Exemptions

      x  .875       Reduction of taxes due to Homestead and Primary Resident Exemption

$   643.12       Actual Taxes paid by Homeowner C after the reevaluation process.

Homeowner C would pay $643.12 – 612.50 = $30.62 MORE in taxes because this house increased in value during the reappraisal process and HB920 does not apply to roll back the tax rate when the district is at the 20-mil floor.

A district at the 20-mil floor sees all households treated the same.  The actual tax rate remains the same (20 mils), the tax dollars an individual homeowner pays increases or decreases with the value of their house.  There is no comparison against the community’s overall property increase.

I know this is a lengthy and complicated explanation, but school tax law is complicated.  The district should see some growth in taxes as a result of inflationary growth in property values in the community and by being at the 20-mil floor, but the Board of Education cannot arbitrarily or at its whim increase the taxes without a vote of the community.

I hope this helps…if not, please contact me for further explanation.

My contact information for anyone on your blog who wants to know is the following:

Jim Gunner

1210 E. Bogart Road

Sandusky, Ohio 44870

jgunner@perkinsschools.org

(419) 625-0484 Office

(419) 450-3728 Cell

Please feel free to share this explanation and contact information.  Also, I would invite you and any other community member who has more questions to come to one or more of the Question & Answer sessions the levy committee is hosting. They are to be held as follows:

Saturday, October 9th @ 9:00 am – Perkins Restaurant back room on US 250

Tuesday, October 12th @ 7:00 pm – Perkins High School Room 805

Wednesday, October 20th @ 12:00 noon – Matt & Chet’s Pizza, Strub Road

Thanks for your inquiry.

Jim

 

Comments

Azure Ray

Mr. Dubois:

ALRIGHT.  (One L)

Why don't you ask Mr. Gunner or the Perkins School Board?  I realize that you are doing this so you can see what type of drama....oops, I mean RESPONSES you can pull up on here.  If you want to know something that small and specific, I'm sure that you can get your answer straight from the source and not waste your time picking through the horse crap that usually makes its way onto the Register's online blogs.

Bryan Dubois

I'd love to but I don't see any contact info for Gunner on the Perkins schools website.  I don't suppose you've got his number?

Azure Ray

 In this day and age, go for the email.  It is the most efficient, and is listed right on the school's website:  JGunner@perkinsschools.org.  

 

Or if you'd like to wait until Monday, here is the phone number: 419-625-0484.   Ask for Mr.  Gunner.  Number was at the top of Perkins Local School's website.

Bryan Dubois

I don't have time during the week.  I work full time and have 5 kids.  That's why I asked publicly in case anyone knew already. People who know about this issue are reading the paper.  Some are vocal, such as yourself.  Other stays silent.

When I said "phone number" I meant Gunner's home phone number.  The Perkins school district's phone number is plainly posted on the website.  The business line does me no good as I work during business hours.  Accessibility is the issue here - as it is for most Perkins voters who work.

Email will likely go ignored.  I'll try it.  We'll see what happens...

Pastor Ron

I pray that one day Mr. Dubois will someday get the education and wisdom to be an actual journalist instead of a drive by pot shot artist that he is comfortable being.  The fact that the number could be found by any 3rd grader with a computer only proves that point.  My prayers will continue but don't expect any miracles.

Azure Ray

 Yea, it wouldn't hurt to give email a shot.  Why not try calling during your lunch break?  I'll try to call over my lunch break on Monday and see what I can dig up on this rumor.  I've made plenty of business calls that were unrelated to my job over my lunch.  

samiam

On the little postcard received in the mail this week regarding the school levy, it is stated that the township would share facilities with the school district.  Township trustees stated at their last meeting that it was not a done deal, but was being considered.  So who's lying and who's telling the truth?

Bryan Dubois

I have limited free time at work.  I'm not able to make business calls.  I emailed Mr. Gunner.  If he responds, I'll share it with you all.

"Pastor Ron," of which church are you a pastor?

MrSandusky

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained libelous or defamatory statements. Discussion Guidelines

Bryan Dubois

BTW:  Azure, you posted a bad email address for Mr. Gunner.

The correct email address can be found in the staff directory on the website:

JGunner@perkins.k12.oh.us

Probably not your fault, as it's probably listed wrong wherever you found it on the website.  Should be corrected promptly, and in my opinion all administrators should have home or cell phones listed.

Kelly

Why would Mr. Gunner want his home number published? Kids would be prank calling him & whackjobs would be harassing him at all hours. His family deserves some privacy.

Bryan Dubois

Kelly, not likely.  Gunner is a public servant and should be accessible.  Do the Sandusky city commissioners get pranked just because they have their phone numbers published on the city website

No.

Privacy has nothing to do with accessibility.

Bryan Dubois

Azure,  it doesn't look like the email option is going to work.

Neither address works.

An email sent to Jim Gunner at the listed address on the Perkins website gets this response:

Email sent to the updated address gets this response:

No phone number listed, no valid email address.

citizen

Azure Ray:

On which planet do you live?  The Perkins School Board being able to RAISE TAXES ON CITIZENS AT ANYTIME IN THE FUTURE WITHOUT A VOTE, I would suggest, is the furthest thing from "something that small and specific."  I'm hoping that was just an emotional response from you because you want this new tax levy to pass no matter the cost and you REALLY don't believe that the School Board being able to raise taxes whenever they want to without a vote is just "something small and specific."  Again, REALLY? 

If this new tax levy passes...along with the high-spending, high-taxing liberals in Washington right now...all of our checkbooks are in for a world of hurt.

outsider

 "On November 2,2010, voters in Perkins Local District will be ask to approve a 4.98 fixed sum operating levy for a five year period. This levy will allow the construction of new facilities and provide fiscal stability for the operations of the district for the next 5 years."

This is the lead sentence in the propaganda provided the public . How do you fund a 100 million dollar project on 4.98 mils for only 5 years? Something is missing. Like all the needed information to make an informed decision.

"Once in a lifetime opportunity!" 

This is the second sentence of the propaganda. Do you feel like you are being conned by a slick used car salesman? Mr. Gunner does not live in the district. Mr. Gunner tried to leave the Perkins superintendent's job a few days after accepting the position. Do you really trust this man with deciding your taxes for  schools the next 30 years?

Hey Ray Ray, I'm back. Did we meet at the State of the Schools meeting? I was there...were you? I've ask a member of the administration to present me all the financial details of "Folly at the Fountain" and I'm still awaiting an answer. My guess is they hope to avoid me until after the election.

 

 

 

 

Common Sense

Mr. DuBois:

If you are interested in having your question answered, another suitable way is to attend the board of education meetings which occur regularly in the evening. This allows day workers, such as yourself, to attend and become informed.

Also, should you have any difficulty reaching Dr. Gunner with a specific question due to e-mail, may I suggest that you contact the board members themselves at the address located on the Perkins Schools website. Their e-mail address is simply a click on the mouse.

Perhaps, your approach to this matter should have been to use the "common sense" method by considering other options when the first did not seem to work to your advantage.

Bryan Dubois

Common Sense:  Pointing out that the super's email address is a non-functioning address doesn't mean I'm done seeking answers.  Don't you think the superintendent should have a working email address posted on the website?

By the way:  Is it common sense to sit through a board meeting just to ask a specific question about the upcoming levy?  That's why we have phone numbers and email addresses.  I don't have time to attend every public meeting to "become informed" about every issue I'm curious.   I doubt anyone else who works full time and is raising a family has time either.

 Underthebridge, you've heard this rumor too?  Might be something the administration would want to clear up if it's not true.  I'm concerned about it and glad to hear you and other are too.

EZOB

     Does anyone think this huge building isn't going to cost extra to operate??   Many of our homes are older than the school.  Let's all tear them down and rebuild.  Heck, if I'm made to pay for a new school why don't I deserve a brand new house?   I've been to the meetings and asked questions.   I'm  saying that Gunner never impressed me.  I'm not saying he's a bad guy, I just don't understand how he impressed the people who hired him.  It's their judgement that I seriously question. 

underthebridge

I'm not sure how the BOE can raise taxes on anything, but I've heard that rumor too.  I do know that every five years, the BOE will ask for a renewal of this levy.  No one has asked what will happen if any one of those levies fail?  Construction for new facilities will continue, but the district will not have the funds to operate?   What will happen then?   I was at a meeting in which Dr. Gunner explained that it about 10 yrs, the tax breaks that were given to Menards and Kalahari will expire and the district will have that money too.   Would that be an adequate amount to money for construction then?  

underthebridge

 @ Pastor Ron - nothing is more artificial than a person who disguises insults as prayer. 

Marty

Why am I being asked to pay for what someone else wants. Because they do not have the money? This is crazy. PAY FOR WHAT YOU WANT YOURSELF.

Azure Ray

 Clearly, no one here has been able to answer your question.  Looks like you might have to go directly to the source.  Perkins schools switched over their email system recently, perhaps you will have to call over your lunch.  I highly doubt that you have NO time to make phone calls during the day.  If you have time to heat up a hot pocket or sit on the toilet, you can make a call.  There are numerous meetings that address the levy and if you are a truly interested citizen, you will MAKE time (just like everyone else).  You have the option to create a blog on the Register's page - not everyone can be "so lucky."  Calling the board / emailing the board is NOT out of the question - they want this passed, too.  That is why they are there.  Do you work in the area, take your lunch up to the board office and ask in person.  There are lots of ways - you make it seem impossible.  

Azure Ray

 Citizen:  by "small and specific" I simply meant that it was a yes or no question.  It's not like the question posed requires a lot of explanation....I understand the importance of a board being able to just up and change the amount of money that tax payers will be spending.  I highly doubt that this is the case.   

bao

another interesting note not made public, they are going after non tax paying college students on facebook with voter registration and an absentee ballot.  apparently they do not feel this levy will pass on its own merit.

Massengill Wins...

Finally an honest statement by the faux columnist from the Register.  Dubois says:

I don't have time to attend every public meeting to "become informed" about every issue I'm curious.

Strange he don't have time to get informed but has time to write his nonsense.  Thanks for the morning laugh Bryan!  You really cleared things up.

Bryan Dubois

That's right.  Because I have a family and full time job.  I have time to get involved - but it has to be on my own time.  You take my words out of context, Massengill!

Bao, interesting about the college students...can you message me with details?

eriemom

Dubois: Try typing the email address correctly, it will go through. These are always caps sensitive. I assume you do have time to do this.

eriemom

Dubois: Try typing the email address correctly, it will go through. These are always caps sensitive. I assume you do have time to do this.

Massengill Wins...

Thank goodness that Mr. Dubois never takes anything out of context.  Pretty funny he doesn't want to take credit for the most honest thing he has ever said on the blogs.

outsider

 Why can't the school administration put down in black and white the finances needed to fund this 100 million dollar building project? Why do they spend thousands of dollars sending out flashy propaganda with only information they want the taxpayers to read? Why do you have to go see a board member or an administrator to get the whole facts? What is wrong with giving the public the whole truth and letting them decide the project on it's merits? What are they trying to gloss over in regards to the finances?

Azure Ray

 You seem to have just jumped to the conclusion that they are hiding something.  What they've put out there is true.  It's pretty black and white to me.  I do believe that they need to bring the reading level down a few notches so everyone in the community can understand it.  Not putting anyone down, but it would be nice if it was explained in a way that someone with a high school diploma or less can understand it.   I will agree with you on that one.  Maybe the volunteer marketing team for the levy needs to be notified of this.  

outsider

 The expensive propaganda "One Vision Right Now! quotes the Ohio Schools Facilities Commission numerous times in their text on the need for new schools. Remember when you read this propaganda that this commission's only function is to promote school construction. "Typically 70% are new buildings and 30% renovations," said a representative in an e-mail. So one must assume they never tell any school system they should not build or more importantly that they can afford to build.

The school administration have based some of their projected funding from increased taxes on "Legends Fields" and the new runway at NASA. Well "Legends Fields " needs a few huge investors or it's not going to happen. And, the federal government is cutting back spending on NASA projects.

Does the school system want you to put your financial future in that basket? The school system doesn't want you to know they will need to sell tens of million dollars in bonds to fund this program. If this growth doesn't happen someone has to pay for those bonds. Yep, it you the taxpayers.

The community needs all the information to make a educated choice not just the highlights provided by the school system. We need the good and the bad possibilities  for our future not just the good .

eriemom

Outsider: Acording to your quote, 30% of the time the commission tells schools to renovate, rather than build. I have a better guess about why the commission makes these calculations. TO SAVE TAXPAYER MONEY.

Yes, thats right, building will save taxpayer money. Building a more efficient complex will also save future operating expenses--bussing, energy, custodial, teacher/administrator pay, etc.

slimnot

 Outsider your screen names is accurate.  You are really on the outside with information.  The Ohio Schools Facility Commission doesn't give a darn is you build new or renovate they just make the suggestion based on the condition of the building.  In the case of Perkins, the cost to renovate would be over 75% the cost to build new.  By the way also, new buildings would be much more efficient in terms of electric, heating, and cooling.   The new buildings would probably be cheaper to operate than the outdated buildings of the district now.

People of Perkins if you have questions and need answers to the November 2nd issue.  Don't look here for answers because bloggers like Outsider really don't have any real cold hard facts.

Massengill Wins...

Funny this guy wants to create controversy and push his political agenda but yet he is functionally illiterate.  Worse yet the Sandusky Register gives him a platform!

bao

another interesting note not  made public,  the levy team has made a reigistration run at the veterans home. they will provide transportation to the polls if necessary. looks like they need all the non property tax payers to vote as possible.  i guess when greed takes over, ethics is out the window.........

Yellow Snow

bao, they also go to local high schools to register those who will be 18, fill them full of go team go..  These kids, still living at home, will vote on the levy, then go off to college, most likely never to return to pay for the levy they voted on.  Yes, they register many people that will never pay a dime.  Free transportation and what else?  How is a legitimate voter to compete with this?

outsider

 Part of my job is to write similar propaganda. The school system is not lying. They just aren't telling the whole truth. They will only give you information that is positive to their agenda. As a taxpayer  find this offensive. I deserve all the information to make a proper choice. If I want all the information I have to dig, prod and push our public officials. Why is that? What information do they not want me to have? Do you trust someone that can't answer your questions honestly? 

Before you believe information provided by our school system you need to ask yourself some questions.

Will a 4.98 mil operating levy for 5 years really pay for a 100 million dollar building expansion? 

Do you trust a leader, who doesn't live among us and have a vested interest in our community to set our financial obligation for the next 30 years?

Is the Ohio Schools Facilities Commission interested in our financial future or their own agenda?

 

slimnot

 The school system has been very upfront with all information.  In fact, I was skeptical at first myself.  After asking numerous tough questions and doing my own research I have become an informed voter and now SUPPORT this issue.  It doesn't matter where the Superintendent lays his head at night, the BOE is the boss.  These are elected officials that care deeply about this district not only now but in the future as well.  I also know that they had outside independent agencies look at the financing of this issue.  I did some poking around on the financing issue only to find it was all accurate.  It was really neat to talk to alumni this weekend in celebration of the 50th Anniversary. Many were from out of the area and they were very impressed with the building plans and those that toured the meeting thought is was very much needed.  The schools were old and outdated and virtually unchanged since they went to school at Perkins.  Well see these are people who have been out of Sandusky so they know.  Those who returned were impressed with the Perkins school spirit on Friday at the football.  One noted to me how impressed he was with all the young families wearing their black and white in the parade and at the game.  This gentlemen was from New York returning to Perkins for the first time in a decade.  Keep the spirit going, vote YES on November 2nd.  Are you kidding me, we are going to get a new middle school and high school for less than 5 mils over 5 years.  Wake up people, this is a bargain.  Ask other districts if they would like to be in this position.  I don't expect some of the simple people to relate to this.  However, Perkins is full of supportive and vision-oriented people, so this stands a good chance.  By the way, with the district targeting 18 year olds and college students.  What is the difference between them and people who rent?  How is this different than any other election?  Read the Constitution.  You are guaranteed the right to vote at 18 regardless if you pay property taxes.  That darn US Constitution again.

outsider

 Slimnot,

You are incorrect about the superintendent and the school board. Mr. Gunner is in charge and runs this show. The school board is only in a capacity to oversee . This new building project is his baby. His idea, his method of funding.

Yes, it does matter where Mr. Gunner lays his head. At the present time , he is not effected by a property tax increase like the rest of the community. If things don't go as he projects, he can walk away without any ties. It makes a difference.

I do care about the facts. I will be living in this community after our carpetbagger superintendient has moved on to greener pastures like his last two places of employment.

Azure Ray

The school board runs the show and recommends a superintendent.  Not the other way around.

outsider

 RayRay, 

Yes, the school board can hire or fire the superintendent. But, this building project is orchestrated and run by Mr. Gunner which includes the financing model. This is his baby. In fact, I believe this funding model was part of his doctoral thesis. 

observer

All these arguments from both sides is a waste of your time. This thing has about as much of a chance of passing an ice cube on the Equator.

slimnot

 Observer:  You are too simple.  How do you know?  Didn't know you were the official barometer of Perkins Township.

bao

re:  slimnot

i dont question the 18 year old or veterans right to vote in all elections. i question the integrity of those that seek out a yes vote for a property tax that these voters will not pay. The difference between these voters and renters is that most, if not all renters will indirectly pay this tax increase through rent iincreases. that is unless the landlords in perkins absorb the tax increase " for the kids."

 

Yellow Snow

re:SlimeLot Yes, that wonderful Constitution allows those 18 and older to vote.  High School, college, and renters.  The difference being, renters will have their rent increased.  The majority of high school and college voters have never paid property tax.  I was excited when my 18 year olds registered.  I did sit down with them and explain what happens to property owner taxes.  I explained and encouraged them to attend meetings.  The best voter is an educated voter, not one that only registers and hears one side of the story.  It's not the bulding that makes a well rounded, happy, successful student, it's who and what's inside and what's at home or not at home.

outsider

 Observer,

It's never a waste of time to discuss the merits of a building project that will affect the community for the next 30 years. It is my responsibility as a community member to question public officials on the information they provide to make those decisions. 

It's just a little sad in today's day and age that citizens are not given all the information to make an informed decision. Community leaders have agendas and what's best for the public is not always their priority.

slimnot

 Outsider:  Why do you continue to say you're not getting the information.  All information has and will continue to be accessible that is if you want the cold hard facts, which you probably don't.  Don't think is Gunner's baby.  Take a walk in the halls and you will see.  You are searching hard Outsider but your lack of information is making you look silly.  Outsider:  The Superintendent must have the blessing and complete support of this project.  He can not act alone with the BEo.  Get the truth!

bao:  Again I didn't think simple narrow minds would look at big picture.  Did you ever consider that landlords could potentially fill vacancies on rentals with a great school system?  There is nothing at all unethical about targeting ALL registered voters in Perkins.  You are upset because it doesn't bold well for you views.  Not sure why you say this lacks integrity and this is very confusing to me as well as many other readers I am positive.

Yellow Snow:  Are you an educated voter?  Or do you only want one side?  I hope to see you at Gunner's Q&A sessions coming up.  Because as you said to be a good voter must get both sides. I am sure you will live by your own words and seek out information on both sides of the issue.  So hopefully we will all see you at the Q&A's.   

Bryan Dubois

Where and when are Gunner's Q & A's?

slimnot

 Hope you can attend and any other citizens that want to be informed voters.  I was told these are the following times, dates, and locations for Gunner's Q&A sessions.  

Saturday October 9 at Perkins Restaurant  9:00 AM

Tuesday October 12 at Perkins High School  7:00 PM

Wednesday October 20 at Chet & Matt's  12:00 PM

 

underthebridge

As I understand it,  we are not getting a $100 million facility in five years with the passage of this levy.  We are getting Phase 1.  

If this levy passes, the school board will vote to move inside milage funds (which are designated by the state to municipalities to operate) to outside milage funds which can be used for the construction of facilities.   The funds generated by this levy will be used for operating expenses (what had previously been covered by the inside milage)  . . programs, sports, salaries, etc.  Every five years, this same levy will be on the ballot for renewal.  

This levy -- if it passes again in 5 years -- will cover the operating expenses again so the funds (inside milage funds) previously used for operating can now be used for construction.   This may be how the taxes can be increased without the local citizenry voting on them.  (Truly not sure so if someone knows . . . say so.)   The feds are also going to match some of the construction money with stimulus funds but I've read that this is a limited time offer.  

Somehow bonds play into this too, but I'm not sure.  

We will NOT be getting new classroom facilities in the first five years which is what is referred to as Phase 1.  The first phase will cover demolishing (for lack of a better word) current athletic facilities and constructing new athletic facilities.   It is my understanding that the new educational facilities will be in about the location of the current athletic facilities.   

I'm trying to be informed and I've not made up my mind entirely.  I'm also suspicious of anyone who tells me that if I don't "buy now" this deal will not be available.   It reminds me of a sales pitch . . . "This deal is available for a limited time.  You must decide now so you don't miss out."  

 

slimnot

 Underthebridge:  You seen like you want some answers.  That is good?  You should attend Gunner's Q&A sessions to get answers because you are little off on some of your information and could you some clarification and a blog is not where you should get it.  But I do know one thing:  I was told a new school would be opened for the 2013-2014 school year considering no major construction hang-ups.  I heard this a one of Gunner's meetings.  So it is not going to be 5 years it is actually projected for less than 5 years.

Azure Ray

 Slimnot - you are correct.  The new high school should be opened for the 2013-2014 school year.  The high school is the oldest building (I think it was built in 1908...somewhere around there) and is the building that needs the most maintenance.  As mentioned before, it will cost taxpayers more to keep up the old high school/rebuild only the high school later on than it would to just pass the levy now and get a great asset to the community and the students with ALL new buildings and facilities.  The reason the current athletic facilities are being taken out first is because - just as you mentioned, Outsider - that land will be needed for the construction.  The only new thing that next year's seniors will see will be a new football field, atheletic/team rooms, and new tennis courts.  The baseball diamond will not be taken out, it will just be reconfigured so that 2nd base becomes home plate so that the concession stands and field house will be at the home plate area.  

 

I think the Q & A sessions will be a great way for everyone to hear what the board has to say, as well as ask any questions about things that have been made unclear.  I guarantee that if a voter (who has the best in mind for the community) goes into these Q & A sessions with an open mind, and legitimate questions for the board/Mr. Gunner, that he or she will probably vote "yes" on the levy.  

outsider

 I have the "Vision 2010 Special Insert". All it says is a 4.98 fixed-sum operating levy for 5 years will allow construction of new facilities and no new operating levy before 2015. OK, who is bull shooting who? Why must the school not explain the whole truth? Do they not want the pubilc to know? Why can the schools send this information out to all citizens of the Perkins School district and then expect a citizen to attend special meetings to get the whole truth? What are you hiding?

slimnot

 Outsider: There is no hidden truth, you are really stretching today.  Everybody sees right through you and knows what you are trying to do.  If you want answers and the truth you can get them.  However, you can't handle the truth.  You would rather sit behind a keyboard and claim that everybody is being is being tricked by the BOE. Funny how I received the same special insert and found it very informative.  See you at the Q&A's.  That is if you really want to get information.  If you can get away from you keyboard long enough to attend a public meeting.

outsider

 slimlot,

Please explain what you think I'm trying to do. I'm asking questions in regards to the information provided by the school system. By your standards, this is wrong. No its not wrong it's my right to question public officials. Which public discussion will you be at? Oh, that's right you believe every word you don't need to go. Why should people go to these meetings the school board has given everyone enough information already. 

"Remember this is a once in a lifetime opportunity."  Don't you just love a great sales pitch!

Azure Ray

What is this "hidden truth" that you speak of?  You keep saying that Perkins Schools aren't giving us the whole truth.  What is missing, then?  Please be specific.  Let me guess, you think 9-11 was an inside job, too?  Try to hear them out.  If you feel something is missing, go find out for yourself.  When you figure out exactly what the big, bad corporate headquarters of Perkins Schools are trying to hide from the poor, meek public, please let us all know.  

For The Kids

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained personal attacks. Discussion Guidelines

Pundit

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained personal attacks. Discussion Guidelines

slimnot

 Thank you Pundit for setting Dubious straight on a few things.  I try to be patient with people like this but it gets harder with each birthday.  Don't be so sure the levy won't pass Pundit.  If Castalia can pass an operating levy any place can pass a levy.  

Bryan Dubois

Thank  you so much for setting me straight.  So, Slimnot:  did Castalia pass a levy recently or something?  If so, how did they do it?  (By the way, I worked on that campaign.)

Is the Perkins levy and the Margaretta levy similar in any way?

Massengill Wins...

Pundit give Bryan a break.  He has no formal education and is doing the best he can with what he has!  He is trying to follow in the footsteps of his heroes Beck and Limbaugh.

outsider

I have read and reread the information provided by the school system. There is no mention of support of this levy by the teachers or support staff. Doesn't that seem strange?

 

slimnot

 Outsider:  You are not asking questions of public officials, you are making things up in a cowardly way.  If you wanted to really ask questions you wouldn't do it on a forum you would go to a meeting.  I don't think there is much substance to you and your opinions.  How much did you want them to put in one insert?  The teachers I have talked to are very supportive of the plan.  Attend a public meeting and ask some of these questions instead hiding, coward!

Azure Ray

 Outsider - there is no mention of support of the levy in those materials probably because the purpose of them is to inform people, not to persuade.  I'm sure if you were to ask any teacher if they are going to support this levy, they will say yes.  I'm sure your reaction to this is because the teachers will get new classrooms!  (Because everyone, according to you, has some agenda.)  In reality, I betcha 99% of teachers will vote for this levy - even the ones that don't teach in Perkins but live there - because they want what is best for kids.  That is why they are teachers, I'm sure.  Not for the money or fun demands from the state.  The "once in a lifetime" sales pitch has some validity to it.  You can mock it all you want, but there is some truth in it (just like there is often some truth in it in other situations).  Your Negative Nancy demeanor is getting a little boring because you aren't bringing anything new to the table.  

outsider

 As before I offer to meet with you to discuss the finer points of this levy proposal. You can bring along your friend slimnot. I know you don't drink coffee based on our previous discussion how about another suggestion.

slimnot

 Outsider:  I would love to match wits and talk politics but I am not sure you would be  a quality discussion based solely on what I have seen you blog.  Keep up the negativity my friend, your life must stink.  You need to study public policy much more before I subject myself to your simple narrow views.  Don't try to tell us that you are just questioning public officials.  You are so full of it. You are a negative Nelly that loves to pretend you know something when in all reality you know very little.

outsider

 I knew it!  Called you out in public and you hide!

My life is great. Had a great time at the 50th anniversary of Perkins High School on Saturday night. Hope to see you at a school board meeting,a state of the school meeting or another function within the school system. 

I don't agree with the proposed levy for new schools. I think there are issues with the funding of the program. I'm not in the minority of the community in regards to this levy. The school administration has not proven to the public the merits of their "folly with the fountain".

I can disagree with the school system on this expenditure and still support the teachers and the kids. Isn't that amazing? 

Cross

Slimnot, you are the one using personal attacks. You also are ignoring the main points Outsider has made.

Now, care to try again in a civil manner, or are you going to degenerate even further to 'neener neener'?

 

orangebag

So many thoughts, so much misinformation.  4.98 mills operating levy for 5 years must be renewed every 5 years--it is for OPERATING COSTS ONLY.  It can never generate more money than initially asked for by the district.  Inside millage is provided by law to every school system.  The average is 4-6 mills per district.  Inside millage, by law, INCREASES EVERY YEAR to support the operation of a school system  WITHOUT A PUBLIC VOTE.  The government NEVER gives money away.  The district wll need to purchase federal bonds--up to $40 million--for construction.  Those bonds will need to be repaid.  The caveat to the district are reduced percentage rates.   The other $60 million dollars will have to come from bank financing.  No school district can come up with an extra $60 million at anytime.

The 5.2 mills moved from inside to outside millage will increase yearly WITHOUT PUBLIC VOTING.  That will be for as long as the bonds are purchased--30-40 years.  Think about that.  If you are comfortable with that vote yes.  As a voter you must be well informed.  Ask the questions, because no matter what anyone says on this blog--this is accurate information with no bias to either side.

School funding is complicated.  Why aren't all the districts in Ohio doing this type of construction financing?  No one gets $100 million dollars and can pay it back in five years.  Common sense, accurate information, and voting with intelligence is important!!

Guy on a Buffalo

Orangebag -

The 5.2 mills you are referring to are already inside millage.  They increase as property values rise.  It has been happening since the millage was distributed by the county government many, many, many years ago.  You are already paying for it and it's increases.  Why do you think your taxes go up as the value of your house goes up?

The district wants to take the inside millage and grow it over several years.  As property values increase, the millage will bring in more money.   That money will be used for new buildings.  Once the high school/middle school are paid off, the district will move onto phase two.

Please stop saying that taxes will increase without public voting.  This has already been happening.  You make it sound like they are going to just raise taxes left and right, and that is wrong.

The bonds will be repaid.  Some will be repaid without any interest (a great savings) and the rest will be repaid with a 35 percent interest rebate (another great savings).

The district is not trying to rip anyone off - they are using forward thinking to try and save as much as possible.  This seriously is a one-time opportunity.

And no, I am not associate with the district in any way.  I have just attended a few meetings and have taken the time to research this topic so I can vote yes with intelligence.

 

orangebag

However, you are jeapordizing operating costs that increase yearly.  Hence the reason for inside millage.  You are taking that 5.2 mills inside to move it outside to pay for fixed cost items.  You may have money to build buildings, but if the community does not vote a new levy in five years they will have to make reductions to balance the budget. 

underthebridge

"if the community does not vote a new levy in five years they will have to make reductions to balance the budget." 

That is one of my biggest concerns:  If the renewal does not pass every five years, they will have to make cuts to operate the district while they continue to build new facilities.  

 

 

Guy on a Buffalo

Underthebridge -

If you had attended one of the meetings, you would have learned that the 2015 renewal would be the last one needed for quite some time.  But, you probably didn't attend, so you don't know.

underthebridge

Good lord freehuddlerocks!  Simmer down now.  I did attend a meeting.   Mr. Gunner very specifically stated that a levy in 2015 may likely be the last renewal because the tax breaks afforded to Menards (if they are still in business) and Kalahari (they will probably still be in business) will expire in about 2020.   However, the proposed  funding structure allows for this levy to be placed on the ballot for renewal every 5 years until the bonds for construction are paid off.  That still does not answer the question about what will happen if one of the renewals (say the 2015 levy) does not pass.  Facilities will continue to be built but there will be no money for operating the districtt? 

outsider

 I ask questions for these reasons.

 

I own a home and live in the Perkins School district.

I have parents who own a home and live in the Perkins School district.

I have children who own a home and live in Perkins School district.

I have grandchildren who will attend the Perkins School district.

 

Now here's my problem.

 

I'm not sure my parents can afford this new tax. They are going to have to make some cuts in other areas like food, medicine or utilities to pay this tax. Just to be clear. If they don't pay this extra tax the county will take their home. Yes, I've spoken to the county treasurer and that's the bottom line.

My wife and I have made the decision to live in our present home until we die. One of Mr. Gunner's sales pitches is this new building project will increase your property value. To me that's a negative not a positive. Refer to comment above.

The school system has not given the voting public all the information to make a educated decision. They have not lied. They just have not told the whole truth. They have sent out shinny propaganda to the voting public with only the information they want you to understand. If you want more complete information you have to attend a "special" meeting.  This tactic has created a trust issue between the voting public and the school board and administration.

Mr. Gunner has no vested interest in our community. He does not live here. His past practice shows he will not stay around for this project to be completed. We are back to that trust issue again. I will get to pay for the "folly with the fountain" for the next 30 years if I follow him blindly. 

That's why I ask questions.

 

 

underthebridge

I'm really asking . . . so when the inside milage goes to outside milage it does not provide sufficient funds to actually construct the new facilities?   It only provides sufficient funds to purchase federal bonds (basically a loan that need to be repaid) so we can build?  That seems like borrowing money (from operating funds) so we can get a loan to build.  

I went to a meeting and left with more questions than answers.  I'm not suggesting that it was deceptive, but I'm alluding to the fact that school funding is complicated.  

Once the BOE  votes to move milage from inside to outside -- can they vote to move it back if a subsequent renewal levy does not pass?  

Bryan Dubois

This post updated with response from Mr. Gunner.

orangebag

In this case it will if property values continue to increase.  The inside moved to outside can only be used for permanent improvements--buildings, etc.  No operating costs.  The district could not move the millage back, because it would still have to pay for the consrtuction costs.  The board could move it back after the construction costs were paid.  The district is substituting one fund for another to get a loan. 

Pundit

 I told Dubious to google "conversion levy" and check the board of elections before he spreads rumors. Guess that gets the you deleted around here.

Captain Gutz

In 1997, The Supreme Court of the State of Ohio affirmed the decision of the trial court in the school funding case, DeRolph v State of Ohio by finding the State failed to meet the requirement of Ohio's constitution to fund a "thorough and efficient system of common schools."

 

Funding public schools in Ohio is unconstitutional.

Pundit

" What's with all the disrespect toward people who are asking honest questions about this issue?"

Why didn't you send the email to Gunner, get his answer, then write your post?

Your "honest question" spreads a notion that is easily proven false with the smallest bit of research.

Not only do you fill this website with dubious opinions, but to just straight up spread rumors?

"This post updated with response from Mr. Gunner."

It was not updated with an apology to Gunner from Dubois, however. You owe him and the readers of the SR an apology, but I imagine your response will be about how you're held to lower standards than an actual journalist.

Bryan Dubois

Pundit, Gunner's response plainly states in the first paragraph that school funding is complicated.  I asked an honest question and got an honest response. 

I'm impressed with how Gunner took the time to answer the question.  As a public official I'm sure he understands how rumors circulate and why it's important to get the information out there so people can understand.  His first priority is to get accurate information to the public.

Do you have a blog somewhere on the internet, Pundit?  You can start one for free on wordpress, blogger and numerous other sites.  Why don't you start one and see where it goes?

underthebridge

Dubois' *rumor* is not false so no apology is required.   Whether this milage is remains inside or moves to outside so it can be used to purchase bonds for construction - it CAN increase or decrease as property values change.  The only vote the BOE has is to move these funds.  

Massengill Wins...

So implying that Mr Gunner was avoiding the questions by not having a working email address,no telephone number listed or providing the community information is all accurate?  Mr Gunner appears to be the professional here and Mr. Dubious should probably do his homework before turning it in.

Perkins2060

Man, I'm really voting NO now! 

underthebridge

I wonder why the district didn't put a levy on the ballot that would be designated soley for bond purchases for constructing new facilities?  What are the benefits of moving inside milage to outside milage rather than a straightforward levy for facility construction?     My concern is that as inflation increases the funds generated by the proposed levy won't increase like the inside milage funding structure allows.  

Very confusing and very complicated.  I'm hearing a mixed bag of responses from my neighbors.  Some people are very positive, very vocal, and will vote in the affirmative.  An equal, but interestingly less vocal group are voicing concerns about the funding structure.   In my opinion, this is not the typical group of "Heck No to any new taxes to fund schools."   This group of people have questions about the funding structure and concerns about the wisdom of using operating funds for construction. 

Cross

The simple answer is yes, if you vote for this Levy then you will see arbitrary increases of your school taxes paid every three years due to their shifting of the funds in this dodgy manner to allow the district to reach the 20-mil floor.

Gunner's answer is this is not a result of the school board, but of HB920 ALLOWING the school board. So, you see it's all fair.

Except it isn't.

Gunner is distorting the issue with a faux trail pointing at the current legislative law regarding the 20 Mil ceiling.

He gamely uses sentences like "modest increases based on tax valuations allowed by HB920."

Whether you choose to accept this is a result of bad legislation or a power grab by the district to raise more funds, both are essentially the same. This levy will cost the taxpayers more money and create the capability of the district to get MORE funds from taxpayers without future votes!

Bryan Dubois

Thank you Cross.

Pundit

" I'm being told by people who know people that this construction levy will allow the Perkins school board to raise taxes on Perkins residents at any time - without taking it to the community for a vote.

Care to tell us who these "people who know" are? As they plainly didn't know? These your main sources for all your posts?

Why don't you take your blog to wordpress? My main objection to just about anything you write is that it injects base scandal-mongering in one of our only local news sources. Trust me, if you didn't blog on the SR website, I certainly wouldn't be correcting you. 

Pundit

And before you respond with your typical assumption of the role of passive aggressive victim remember, you asked me a question.

Bryan Dubois

I'm in the book, Pundit.  Until then you're just an anonymous commenter obsessed with my opinions.  BTW:  I started on blogger.  SR gets much more traffic.  The reality you hate isn't going to change just because you shared your opinion.

AllTheAnswers

Hey Dubois:
Didn't you start this whole blog with an unfounded rumor? Then you stated that you couldn't reach the super? Then you said you were too busy? Where did all your free time come from? You KNOW IT ALLS crack me up! I've been to levy meetings and hope to see you at the next one seeing as you have all these questions. That's right, you don't have the free time. Guess I won't be seeing you there. This whole situation can be viewed from both sides. Be an optimist, vote yes and help the children, the community, and your real estate value. Look past the end of your nose. How is Perkins Township identified? It's the school. Let's make it the best we can-- please note the proposed COMMUNITY CENTER. No shell game going on, you'll just find an excuse to vote no. And guess what, bet your taxes still go up over the next 30 years! Invest to move forward. Make our school the envy of the state. Jump off the negative train heading to Rumor-ville. My kids thank your consideration.

Bryan Dubois

Alltheanswers, yes, this post started with questioning a rumor.  And it has become the most commented article on the SR.  That's because it's about  subject matter that many people want to learn more about.

I suspect there will be much more on the topic, too.

Stay tuned.

outsider

 I have a few questions.

What is the present outside millage?

What is the present inside millage?

If the levy passes what will the outside millage be?

If the levy passes what will the inside millage be?

I

 

Azure Ray

 Outsider - Gunner left his personal contact information.  You have several options.  He is ready and willing to answer your questions.

Bryan Dubois

Azure, not everybody is going to attend Gunner's Q & A.  They're just going to vote no and not be inconvenienced.  The BOE has several options:  They can answer the questions as publicly as possible with accessibility to the information as their first priority - or they can make limitations and limit their chances of success.

This is the world we live in.  You can either whine about it - or do what's necessary to heighten your chances of success.

By the way:  I've read through the FAQ on the Perkins website and it's more like Frequently Asked Questions We'd Like You To Ask - instead of Frequently Asked Questions That Actually Get Asked.  Of course, they can do whatever they want.  I'm just pointing out the truth as it applies to them politically.

Also, some voters may resent your opinion that "anyone who cares about the community" will vote for the levy.  That right there is enough to make a citizen vote no just to spite you -- as they already leaned towards making a no vote anyway in these tough financial times.

Just my opinion.

Guy on a Buffalo

 Bryan -

If you are the Bryan Dubois I am think of, didn't your children attend Perkins for a while, but you pulled them out for home schooling?  Could this be why you wrote such an awful blog - to stir up no votes since your children no longer attend the district?

Just wondering!

Bryan Dubois

Questioning my motives doesn't change the political reality of the situation.  It only makes you feel better.  There are alot of voters who don't have children in the district.  If they ask questions, will you attack their motives without addressing their questions?  You do so at the levy's peril.  (The politically savvy know this)

Yes, my kids are homeschooled.  At any second, I could re-enroll them in the Perkins school district as I am entitled because I pay taxes here.

A good school system is necessary for many reasons - but I disagree that a good education is dependent on the school building.

At this moment I am undecided on how I'll vote on the levy.  This post was meant to spark debate - and it did.  It was suggested that I email Gunner.  I did.  I posted his response.  Not sure how I could be more fair about this - except do what levy supporters want me to do:  Ask no questions.  Blindly vote yes because that's what they want me to do.

Guy on a Buffalo

 How is posting a blog that states "A person who knows a person said this about the levy",  then arguing that you have no time to actually ask the question to someone who may know, a legitimate motive for asking questions?  Your column was simply a way to drive traffic to this site so your sales staff can say "Oh, buy ads online.  We get 10,000 hits a day!"  As you know Bryan, it's all about the money.

Had you really wanted to start a discussion about this topic, you could have posted some real information about the levy, poised a few questions, and then allowed us to respond.

Bryan Dubois

Cross, well said.  (As usual.)

Eh Freehuddle...  I started a commenting thread by asking a very valid question that has been floating around the district.  Folks who were curious about the topic started debating back and forth.  Jim Gunner obviously thought it was a valid question and important to answer as he typed a 6 page response.  (By the way, I sent him a thank you earlier today and said that I would try to attend one of the Q&A's if I have any more questions.)  As far as my sources,  I talk to people inside the Perkins school system.  Shall I out them or something?  Is that what you want?  So you can go attack them for relaying information and asking questions too?   Is this a witch hunt or something?

That's the problem with your levy movements and believe me - people are watching and reading.  Take the Margaretta approach:  They were completely open about everything.  They wanted people to ask questions, so they could have a platform to make the issues clearer.  Citizens were never attacked by having their motives questioned just because they wanted to understand the issues so they could make an informed decision.  The folks at Margaretta sifted through commenting threads to address the real questions that citizens had.  That's how you persuade.

You folks are maligning people who ask questions.

Way to go. 

Massengill Wins...

Thank you Bryan for making it clear that this is about web traffic and not providing useful information to the public. 

Bryan Dubois

Massengill, you don't believe Gunner's response was informative?  You would not be reading it if I hadn't started the thread, asked the question, and posted his response.

Cross

I find it amusing many complain that Bryan is using his blog as a blog, and not as a means to report.

It's also amusing that those arguing the most about his method's resort to personal and nefarious tactics themselves.

Feel free to read my last response, which addresses the real reason for this levy, which is the ability to get more money every three years while circumventing the legislative protections enacted for smaller townships like ours.

The district needs to SELL this plan. It's their baby. They need to do so by all public means, be they board, meeting, or OPEN FORUM. This is our tax dollars they are planning to use. I wish we'd have more good open question posts here to allow for the few open minds to discuss things, and even allow for the supporters to try and explain why we should vote for this. 

Preferably with factual and good posts, and not nastygrams for Mongo.

Azure Ray

 " That right there is enough to make a citizen vote no just to spite you..."

I highly doubt that.  And if that is the case, then that voter was a lost cause anyway.  

This is fun!

Bryan Dubois

Not if he was on the fence!

It is fun, isn't it?

Azure Ray

 Hmm ok.  Well then we will break even.

bao

well said outsider. this is a risky proposition,  with its success contingent on many variables such as   open enrollment funding staying the same, continued growth in the twp. such as ( nasa runway), property values increasing and future operating levies passing. i have not heard the back up plan  if any or all of these fail to happen.

outsider

The first five paragraphs of Mr. Gunner's response list important information.

Simply put, the schools system is changing their funding to a formula that increases taxes, without citizens vote, and it's the fault of the county not the schools. It's all legal. Just make sure you understand what you are obligating yourself for the next 30 years.

I just wonder why school officials could not have added this information to their fancy flier they sent out to the community?  Did you not want the community to understand what you are proposing? It's that trust issue again.

Pundit

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained personal attacks. Discussion Guidelines

outsider

 Pundit,

I am glad this blog was started. We have already found out more valuable information from Mr. Gunner than he or his committee has publicly discussed in the open. I'm sure if not for this blog the voting public would have only been informed on the "special information" provided by our school administration in their pretty flier.. This blog has made the school administration open up public forums to discuss the pluses and minuses of the building proposal. Public discussion about public funded projects are always helpful.

Massengill Wins...

Is it just me that notices that Dubious claims to approach these issues with an open mind yet he implies that there is some sort of conspiracy and that Mr. Gunner is not accessible?  I wonder what Dubious would consider biased?  Haven't heard from Chung Lee on the blogs lately....  I wonder where he has been hiding?

underthebridge

Great letter to the editor today *10-5-10* from Pascoes of Perkins Township providing more information about school funding.

Bryan Dubois

The letter underthebridge was referring to:

True Blue

Why must Perkins have the best school buildings in the state?  This has nothing to do with educating our children.   I can remember when Perkins was just an ole country school.  The students had a good education in those ole school buildings.  VOTE NO!!  MR. GUNNER AND ALL SCHOOL OFFICIALS, INCLUDING TEACHERS, SHOULD TAKE A PAY AND BENEFIT CUT.  Oh, did I say pay and benefit cut.  They'll all get raises if the levy passes.  That's the way Perkins operates.  Tell us one thing and do another.  Oh, and don't forget the artifical turf for the football field.  That will be done next year after this levy passes. l guess artifical turf gives the kids a better education too.  This is a joke!!

Bailey

VOTE NO ON EHOVE TOO Talk about waist! They spend 10's of thousands of dollars and never put things out for bids Why doesnt the Register ever investigate EHOVE? Talk about a sham, whens the last time the news agencies ever questioned the EHOVE practices and expenditures? Instead, the go after the schools where the students can end up going to college. Whats with this two sided reporting?

Cowboy

I've been sitting on the sidelines long enough letting Perkins schools spend my tax dollars as they felt fit for them for years without them looking at the big picture. Windmills, repaving parking lots, building a work out facility, reconstructing tennis courts, improvements to the baseball field, new scoreboard and now you want to build a campus the size of a small college.  Really?  No, I mean it....really?  If you think I am going to spend another dollar after you have already decided to rip up the items that I have listed here that we have already paid for then you are crazy!  I know, I know, I know.....some of those items were paid for by fund raising and donations.......whell guess where that money came from???  That's right...still the taxpayers that decided to give to good causes.  You neglected to tell us that it would all be for not in a year or two when you decide to rip it down to put in your dream campus.  Let's talk about your dream campus for a minute.....  This thing is out of control!  Why do we want to move the board offices to this campus?  Why do we need a senior center on a school campus?  Why do we need township offices on this campus? and community meeting rooms???  really??  Isn't that why we have the public sector???  Do we really want every event on this campus???  No, we don't!  The public sector has the right to make money and thrive also on our business.  Kalahari will lose a lot of banquet business and so will other venues that we use in the area.  Is that really what we want? Rob Peter to pay Paul???  And the traffic, did you think about that?  Campbell and Strub cannot handle any more traffic at that intersection.  It is already dangerous enough and you want to now jam more cars and busses into that area? This campus is a great example of overspending just because. Well, I'm not standing for it and I hope there are others who will speak out as well.  Our taxes are already so high that people do not want to purchase a house in Perkins township.  And if you are going to tell me that our property value will go up because of this facility, you are wrong my friend.  Our property value will follow the housing industry just like it always has.  We already have a GREAT school system so you cannot expect this will raise our property values. Rethink your plan, cut it down to only what is needed and nothing more if it has to be done, otherwise you will not get my vote and a lot of others feel the same way. 

underthebridge

The examples that the district provides are for a house with a market value of $100,000.   The average vallue of the homes in Perkins are actually closer $175,000.    I'm willing to give Mr. Gunner the benefit of the doubt that his examples were for the ease of explanation, but this is important information to know. 

http://www.city-data.com/townshi...

outsider

 Check out which local businesses have "one vision right now" signs on their property. Perkins Pancake House, Danny Boys and Eats and Treats are a few I noticed. If the levy passes these establishments will lose my business. Someone has to help me pay for all these new taxes might as well be the businesses that are supporting the "Folly with the Fountain."

Cowboy

My wife and I eat at Perkins Pancake House once a week, Danny Boys about twice a month and Eats-n-Treats a couple times a month.  All said and done, I spend about $300.00 a month at these places.  If this levy passes, I will boycott your restaurants and go out of my way to find a restaurant that did not support the levy even if I have to take my money to another city. Shame on you for making your restaurants uncomfortable places of politics.

outsider

 A business has every right to support a political viewpoint. Restaurants need to be very careful because there are so many choices in this area. My first priority is to support local businesses but I have checked three off my list as of now. Will pass on any more sightings of "One Vision Right Now" yard signs.

outsider

If you want your taxes raised for the next 30 years for "Folly with the Fountain" please support Chet and Matt's Pizza. Yep, big and bold in front of their establishment the "Raise our Taxes Right Now" yard sign. Boy, I liked their pizza. Not anymore.  

Cross

I disagree with the levy, but I also think wanting to punish business owners for having legitimate opinions is silly.

If a business owner is a good member of the community, then I'll visit them, be they left, right, or independent

I respect anyones right to boycott business, but really shouldn't we be able to disagree civilly?

outsider

 Cross,

Who hasn't disagreed civilly? If some stops going to a business isn't it their right? A business can support whatever they want. Sometimes there are ramifications for people's action. If I have to pay for all this cost for"Folly with the Fountain" for the next 20 years is that punishment? Just asking?

Cross

Outsider, I respect your opinion.  I absolutely think it is your right to choose not to frequent a business due to political or other advertisements.

I personally would not do that because I don't think it's appropriate. If I owned a business and disagreed with a policy, I'd let people know and I hope my neighbors would believe in the golden rule and respect what I have to say without boycotting me for holding a different opinion.

I go to businesses owned by registered Democrats and Republicans. I go there based on if they offer a good service and something I need. As long as the people who own them are respectful, I don't mind if they have different viewpoints.

I guess my point is we should respect other opinions and not try to use differences to create an 'us and them' mindset.

 

outsider

 Cross, 

I respect others opinions. But, if this levy passes I will need to come up with an additional $300 a year and whatever additional property tax increases get passed along over the next 30 years due to the always increasing property value. My wages have not increased over the last few years to cover this expense. So I need to decide where this money comes from out of my budget. Most likely it will come from entertainment. Yes, for some of us, going out to eat is our entertainment. 

So, to pay for "Folly with the Fountain" myself and numerous other taxpayers will give up this portion of their budget. Just want them to know which establishments , Perkins Pancake House, Danny Boy's , Chet and Matt's Pizza and Eats and Treats helped them rearrange their budgets.

 

 

 

SamSlugDuff

Wish an article would be written for the public in the Register that explains:

1. Total costs of project minus govt. funding

2. What govt. involvement or stipulations are, if any, once funding given

3. Will school/community center require purchase of new equipment and where will that money come from? Where will the money come from to pay the additonal people to run the center,etc.?

4.Explanation in simplified terms for everyone to understand about the millage and how that results in increases out of the public's pocket for many years to come

5. Costs of upgrading current buildings versus building this Grand complex (I can understand increasing the size of a current facility that exists because of increase of enrollment or maintenance to keep the buildings in good shape but what is the purpose of building this Grand complex just because it would mean a loss of govt. funding is at stake...can't the funding be used to add on to current buildings?)

6. I've been told that without passing this, more levies will be put on the ballot and even if turned down by the voters, history shows that eventually they will get passed and we'd have an increase in property taxes then; but isn't that different then an automatic 20-mil because it would not be a 30 year for sure thing increase out of our pocket?

 I'm all for a child getting a good education but as the Pascoes said, it's the teachers/parents who provide that, not the structure they are sitting in.

It seems to be a throw away society these days and that's a shame.

Cross

SamSlug,

  That's a great post.

Bryan could you forward those questions to Mr Gunner and see his response, perhaps?

outsider

 Good points SamSlugDuff.  If you want these answers you have to go to a "special" meeting controlled by the school administration. The nice part of this open discussion on this blog is it's not controlled by the school administration with an agenda.

One question I have for public discussion is.... Why if our school buildings are in such bad shape is the building of a new athletic complex a higher priority than a new elementary school?

At the last "special" meeting I attended I was informed the  elementary school would not replaced for 20-30 years. So a tennis court, baseball field and an artifical turf football field is more important ? 

I thought the Ohio Schools Facilities Commission recommended that "we abandon our facilities and build new environments that truly respond to current-day teaching initiatives." Are tennis courts,baseball fields and a new artifical turf football going to improve"safety, building code and accessibility issues affecting our students and teachers on a daily basis."

Which is more important Perkins School Board?  New buildings or a new athletic complex and fountain ?

What is your true priority?

 

AllTheAnswers

To Perkins pancake House, Danny Boy's, Chet & Matt's, Eat 'N Treats, any any other business with a Vote Yes sign.
Thank you for your interest in my kids future learning/sporting/leisure environment. You, as I, realize this is an investment opportunity that doesn't come along to often. I govt. handout that will expire and/or be used by another FORWARD thinking school district. I will be eating at your places exclusively!! Thank you for the support you are proud to share!

outsider

 AllTheAnswers,

Isn't the freedom in America great. We can have difference of opinion on restaurants, government handouts and a philosophy of school funding. We can openly discuss in public these issues rather than in "special meetings" behind closed doors. With retirement in my future, I am glad to see you picking up financial responsibility with increased taxes on the local and federal level to take care of all of us joining the government handouts (property taxes and social security.) Good Bless You.

Cowboy

Answer me this please?  How many of you that voted against Obama and can't say anything good about him are now turning coat and taking his handout?  Oh, I'm sure that this is different right? NOT!  You are part of the problem if you support taking this Obama handout.  And if you do, if you do take this money, you'd better stop sending negative propaganda about him from your computer......cause that makes you a hypocrite!

eriemom

Here is the way I see it. Not that anyone cares. We will pay to renovate and repair--with taxes, or we will pay for new buildings--with taxes. I guess the real issue is that some want to not do either. Do we really want to allow those who will not vote for any levy to take over the conversation? Isn't that the crux of the "I am against it because I don't get to vote for it" argument. What it really means is, I get to vote no on any school tax, and will, regardless of need. Pretty silly to try to move these people in either direction--fix it or build it.

Guy on a Buffalo

 

 

citizen

I just had to chuckle at Alltheanswers... (S)he is going to eat EXCLUSIVELY at Chet & Matt's, Perkins Pancake, Danny Boys, and Eats & Treats.... I'm so glad you will have the opportunity to experience dining out at its finest for the foreseeable future HA!

Nice, nice questions Samslugduff.  I'd be suprised if they are every answered.

Another item I find very disturbing is the sample ballot for Perkins Township (can be found on Board of Elections site)  Every other levy initiative has normal sized font etc.  The Perkins Schools levy has HUGE BOLD FONT right in the middle that says "PROVIDING FOR EMERGENCY REQUIREMENTS OF THE SCHOOL DISTRICT."  Wait... What????  Since when is tearing down 50 year old buildings to build a brand new campus "emergency requirements for the school district."  And WHY is it in triple the size font as everything else and bolded?  Was that the BOE's request or the Elections Board decision?

underthebridge

Actually, I've not completely decided how I will vote.  If I do vote NO it would be only the second time in my voting history that I've voted against a school levy.   I'm not entirely against constructing new buildings either, but  I've got big concerns about this funding structure of moving inside milage (for operations) to outside milage (for construction). 

Cross

Red herring, Eriemom. The township gets money from millage for repairs and for operating costs. That's not up for debate. That's also not going to change.

This levy is simply about shifting money to allow the school board/county to bypass legislation put in place to protect homeowners from ad hoc tax increases every third year. I usually vote for Perkins school levies. This is not a levy, it's a power grab.

Now, if you disagree with HB920, that's fine but don't try and distort what the real discussions are about, which have nothing to do with operating costs and repairs.

Guy on a Buffalo

Cross -

You are already paying the 5.2 inside mills.  Your taxes already go up without you voting on it.  This new levy is not inside millage, it's a fixed-sum levy.

Please stop making this sound like it's a brand-new concept and that the board is out to get you.  The only thing new is the fixed-sum levy, which will not go up if the value of your home increases. 

outsider

Freehuddlerocks,

I disagree. This method of moving funds is a unique way to redistribute funds. That's the problem. This method is not illegal. It's not as black and white like the normal method of funding schools. The school system has trouble explaining the process. The public has a  general distrust with government officials today. The school board and school administration are government officials.

If you can't give the voting public simple  honest information it's not going to pass. The levy committee has not provided that burden of proof. We will received shinny fliers promoting new tennis courts ,baseball fields and a artifical turf football field as a priority over an elementary school building. Biased quotes, in that flier, from organizations that's only job is to promote new school building or they don't have jobs.

No one is lying. You just have to sift through the BS to get valuable information and then you have to ask at "special meetings" to receive more information. That's not how to sell a 100 million dollar building levy to a distrustful public.

Cross

Free,

It's not a brand new concept. The boondoggle has been around for some time. :)

Your post was distorted in misrepresenting the simple truth regarding why the board wants to hit the 20 mil floor and the fact it will increase peoples property taxes. That is not up for debate in the very layered and deceptive posts above by Gunner as well as by yourself. I'd be glad to discuss figures, HB290, and the reasons behind this, but first one must admit the real reasons behind this levy, and not try to sugar coat them as is being done by the pro levy people in this thread.

Anyways, after speaking with many people I feel fairly confident this levy will crater. The local school people aren't even sold on it.

 

PTBarnumWouldBeProud

 I find it hilarious that so many folks here have their shorts in a bunch about "the fountain."  If you've ever driven in Britain, or Washington DC for that matter, you may be familiar with roundabouts.  They generally have some sort of decorations in the center (flowers, statues, whatever).  I'm sure if the sticking point on your vote is the fountain, the district might be willing to plant shrubs instead.

 

Support it or not, get over the point that there is a fountain in the roundabout.  There are more issues you need to consider. 

outsider

PTBarnumWouldBeProud,

The "Folly with the Fountain" is symbolic of the extravagance requested by  the school board to fund  this project in economic tough times. Also, if you view the proposed campus construction, it's the primary focal point.

Cowboy

I agree Cross....I also have spoken to many taxpayers, with and without children in the school system, and it does seem to be going South pretty fast.  I believe many people are upset with the size of this Trojan Horse.  Not only is it too extravagant but it completely lacks the nostalgia and history of what we have accomplished.  In the last 5 years we have committed a lot of taxpayer money and private donations into projects that had to be done.  And now they want to pee all those hard earned dollars of ours away with the blade of a bulldozer.  Well I say heck NO!   Our investments must stand for at least 10 years or more for the people to believe our money was well spent.  When I go to the store I purchase only what I can afford and that is it.  I do not go to the store to get the biggest and the best of everything and then expect my neighbors to help me pay for it just because my eyes were bigger than my pocket book.  How is this situation any different?  It isn't!!  Go back to the drawing board guys and only fix what is really broken, then "we the people" will respectfully consider your proposal.  Perkins has a great school system that is not broken.  The only thing broken here is the respect for the taxpayer. 

Cowboy

P.S.  And please don't put a fountain in the plans.  HE he he he he :)

just being honest

WOW!  That was very confusing!!!!  It looks like to me that Mr. Gunner uses alot of big words and confusing details to pass this levy.  Most of the men on the school board are doing pretty well for themselves, it is nothing for them to spend more money each month on a levy.  I doubt anyone of them have ever seen hard times.  This economy has really hurt alot of people in Perkins.  Maybe if the Perkins School Board would get it and scale things down ALOT people would be more willing to listen. 

perkinsparent

Glad to see I am not the only one opposed to this levy.  Why don't we ask questions like: why aren't there enough math books for every student in 5th grade (in week 4 of school)?  Why can't we afford an after school program to help our kids with homework, afterall the parents are out earning the money to pay the school taxes?  Why can't we have a pre-school program to replace Little Pirates so that 5 year olds aren't automatically a year behind their peers? Where are our priorities?  The plan starts with a brand new football field and other recreational facilities.  REALLY?   We are a state funded STEM school and we can't figure out how to builld new schools for our students before we build the football stadium?  Priorities...where are they? 

Build it and they will come according to Mr. Gunner...build it and people will move into Perkins to guarantee their children a place in the school.  Open enrollment will become more competitive. So we build it...and they will come alright, but they may decide to rent instead of buy.  The property owners are left with the bill.  Why not put an income levy on the ballot like Clyde did?  Spread the responsibility to anyone living in Perkins, not just the property owners.  What a novel idea!

Vote NO on November 2nd. 

moonbeam

How does anyone know if open enrollment will even be in effect  years from now? All these school districts are doing is showing the state this area can exist as one big happy district. Sandusky-Perkins Schools all the way baby! NOT . Who will pay for "Folly at the Fountain" then? As a Sandusky tax payer I would hate it if this came true and finantial stupidity was showered on me.

Just Asking

First, please distinguish that this levy is for the Perkins Schools, not Perkins Township.  The township will have its own levies coming up in the future for the operation of the fire, police, and highway departments that benefit ALL residents .  Perkins School on the other hand includes more than just Perkins Township.  It includes part of Huron, Margaretta, Oxford, and Groton townships. 

Second I think I would be more comfortable with an income tax levy as opposed to a property tax levy.  Why?  With an income tax levy, the residents of the district with jobs, whether those jobs are inside or outside the district, would be paying.  The fixed income people, usually the retired or out of work, would not be hit with the increased taxes.  Those working and residing in the school district would feel the increase in taxes either way. 

Finally, I understand this is a once in a lifetime opportunity.  But sometimes I ask myself, do I really need something just because I can have it?  Could we do the project on a smaller scale?  Someone mentioned that this would save on transportation costs?  How is that?  Wouldn't we have just as many students to transport to the same grades?  And why, just because the Federal government has money available, do we have to take advantage of it when all it does is increase the National debt?

eriemom

Kids picked up at one location and dropped at one location will save transport costs. Shared teachers and fewer administrators, not to mention lower energy costs.

I am not positive about the fed stuff, but I think I read that the savings would be in the form of no and low interest loans. I don't think that this adds to the national debt.

outsider

 eriemom,

Who do you think pays for this low interest loan?  Does the federal government have a money tree out back ? 

Lets make this very simple. Any money spent by any type of government comes from taxpayers. Money spent by the federal government adds to our national debt.

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