Baden wants death certificate changed

Famed medical examiner urges Wukie to correct his suicide ruling
Register
Jan 7, 2014

A renowned forensic pathologist who reviewed autopsy reports and what was left of forensic evidence in the death of Jacob Limberios says Sandusky County coroner John Wukie got it wrong, and he should fix the record.

"Jacob Limberios died as a result of an accidental gun discharge," Baden wrote in the sworn statement. "The manner of death on his death certificate should be changed to reflect this."

Read the affidavit here

But Wukie, who didn't conduct an investigation and is not a forensic pathologist, is sticking with the nonsensical wording in his ruling: "Suicide. Gunshot wound to head. Deceased shot self in head, may not have realized the gun was loaded.”

Wukie has declined comment to the Register about his ruling but during an interview Oct. 10 with a BCI agent he said knowing whether an individual intended to take his or her own life wasn't necessary to rule a death a suicide. 

Baden disagrees. 

"Suicide is the intentional taking of one's life as defined in medical and general dictionaries and in the practice of forensic pathology," Baden stated. 

Wukie had been represented by Tiffin attorney Dean Henry in a civil lawsuit filed by the Limberios family last year. That lawsuit has been dismissed, however, and it's unclear whether Henry continues to bill the county for his services on behalf of Wukie.

Henry has declined to offer responsive replies to inquiries from the Register. 

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Comments

vicariouslyAlive

If wukie really wants to one up this media crazed family he would cha he the death certificate. Change it to what it really was, it a dry. "Accidental self inflicted gun shot to the head cause by ignorance and incompetence."

That way the family wins their "it wasn't suicide" and the rest of us that are thinking the same thing can stop seeing this tired article in the paper... after a certain point persistent pleas for "the truth" seems a bit straining when you have 9 out of 10 professionals telling you that the truth isn't what you want to hear. Of course there will always be someone in the professional realm that won't agree... just look at tooth paste advertisements where only 4 out of 5 agree... but at some point you tend to lose the emotional backing from the public when your cry for the "truth" starts to look like a cry for agreeance on your opinion...

Nor'easter

From the Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting 2013 Edition

Pages 21 & 22:

"One of the more difficult tasks of the medical examiner or coroner is to determine whether a death is an accident or the result of an intent to end life. The medical examiner or coroner must use all information available to make a determination about the death. This may include information from his or her own investigation, police reports, staff investigations, and dis cussions with the family and friends of the decedent.

Determining a suicide
+ There is evidence that death was self-inflicted. Pathological (autopsy), toxicological, investigatory, and psychological evidence, and state ments of the decedent or witnesses, may be used for this determina tion.
+ There is evidence (explicit and/or implicit) that at the time of injury the decedent intended to kill self or wished to die and that the decedent understood the probable consequences of his or her actions.
+ Explicit verbal or nonverbal expression of intent to kill self
+ Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die, such as the following:

21

+ Expression of hopelessness
+ Effort to procure or learn about means of death or rehearse fatal behavior
+ Preparations for death, inappropriate to or unexpected in the context of the decedent’s life
+ Expression of farewell or desire to die, or acknowledgment of impending death
+ Precautions to avoid rescue
+ Evidence that decedent recognized high potential lethality of means of death
+ Previous suicide attempt
+ Previous suicide threat
+ Stressful events or significant losses (actual or threatened)
+ Serious depression or mental disorder (10,11) "

There is clearly 2 sides to this story. Investigative reporting instead of media sensationalism would be much appreciated.

Babo

Thought the case was dismissed? So why is an Affidavit dated January 6, 2014 from a retired Medical Examiner (paid expert) being offered at this time?

In other posts, I suggested the family contact a physician/attorney to approach Dr. Wukie as a peer in an effort to have him voluntarily revisit his determination through an Inquest without all the sensationalism created by an attorney who is not qualified in my opinion to bring this case. Instead, the attorney has decided to ratchet it up again after dismissing the case with the filing of a misleading affidavit.

From the Reference Book cited above, the following factors support a finding of suicide:

+ There is evidence that death was self-inflicted.

All the evidence points to and supports that the gun shot to the head was self-inflicted.

+ There is evidence (explicit and/or implicit) that at the time of injury the decedent intended to kill self or wished to die and that the decedent understood the probable consequences of his or her actions.

There is evidence that implicitly suggests that Jacob understood that holding a gun to his head would lead to the probable consequence of the gun discharging.

+ Effort to procure or learn about means of death or rehearse fatal behavior.

There is evidence that shows Jacob mishandled the gun in the past.

+ Evidence that decedent recognized high potential lethality of means of death.

There is evidence that shows Jacob knew mishandling a gun had a high potential for lethality.

+ Previous suicide attempt
+ Previous suicide threat

The public has no information on these factors because the family has chosen not to disclose his mental health records. However, Dr. Wukie would have access to this information.

+ Stressful events or significant losses (actual or threatened)

We know Jacob lost his job and there appears to have been problems or perceived problems with his relationship with the mother of his child.

+ Serious depression or mental disorder (10,11)

The public knows that Jacob was under the treatment of a psychiatrist and prescribed drug(s). Thus, Jacob had a diagnosed mental disorder.

The point is there is evidence to support Dr. Wukie's finding and continuing to beat him over the head with a paid expert's opinion that does not cite any reports in support will not cause him to change his finding.

There is a little known criminal statute that makes it a felony to use court documents or internet statements to intimidate public officials or to try to interfere with the performance of their duties.
RC 2921.03. Dean Henry is just the kind of sleaze-ball special prosecutor who wouldn't hesitate to indict someone here.

Ithink

Babo-"I suggested the family contact a physician/attorney to approach Dr. Wukie as a peer in an effort to have him voluntarily revisit his determination through an Inquest...". Excuse me, but who are you and why does your opinion matter so much in this case? Just asking. Are you in any way, related to one of the infamous 3 witnesses? Wukie? SC LE?

Babo

1. Who am I? I am a concerned and well educated citizen who has followed law enforcement alleged misconduct cases for a long time.

2. You are assuming my "opinion should matter so much". My opinions are based on my education/experience and well intended to provide the family with alternatives to litigation. Obviously, the family solicits opinions because it actively encourages articles and comments in this newspaper and on Facebook. The family is free to consider or not consider anyone's opinions as posted.

3. I am not in any way related to the 3 witnesses, Dr. Wukie, or SC LE. In fact, I've opined that SC LE, Prosecutor Stierwalt, and SP Dean Henry ought to be the focus of a federal investigation. My personal feeling is that Dr. Wukie is the victim of legal malpractice and of naively relying on SC LE to be professional.

Verum_ad_astra

Sleaze-ball? Have you ever met him? Have you ever had a conversation with him?

Babo

Etiam. Verbum sapienti satis est

Verum_ad_astra

Non credo vos.

Babo

Amicule, num is sum qui mentiar tibi? :)

Homines libenter quod volunt credunt

Verum_ad_astra

Noveritis antequam loquaris.

Babo

Pax tecum

Verum_ad_astra

Et cumm spiritu tuo.

Ctwhalers

Great article. I agree with Baden you got it wrong change it. But that still does not excuse mistakes made by sandusky county. So even if death certificate is changed you to go after sandusky county for there botched up job. Keep up the good work register and matt.

Simple Enough II

So what changed? Remember didn't the J4J&E cabal along with his family push the original theory that he was shot by one of the other 3? We get it, you don't like our bucolic little county run by interbred hicks who can't find their way out of a revolving door. Just move on to the next drama spread the Register prints.

mamaC

http://www.change.org/petitions/...

Please Sign & Support our new campaign " Dr. Wukie change Jake's Death Certificate from suicide to accidental'

Simple Enough II

No thanks.

BULLISDEEP's picture
BULLISDEEP

They drop the law suit ,but then want you to sign a petition. NO THANKS

starryeyes83

No thanks ... Let's see they dropped the suit oh, well,,, until next week - then it'll be back on. Again.

And round and round they go..

starryeyes83

.

Cowboy

Enough already!!!!

Ithink

Would you say that if it were your child?

WeThePeople1965

How many expert medical examiner statements is it going to take for the death certificate to be changed? I agree with Baden, suicide is not the correct term. You can sit and argue your point all day, I quite frankly don't have time, but I know Jacob didn't accidentally shoot himself. There is no way someone in their right mind, under the influence or not, would point a loaded gun at such a weird angle and oops! Truth may never come out and that's fine, the truth rests with Jacob and God. If someone hasn't been honest, they'll have to answer for it one day.

MissPatti

Those of you who seem 'tired' of this story are certainly not required to read it. I, for one, am inspired by this family, who refuse to be complacent in the face of injustice.

vicariouslyAlive

It'a a game of semantics and a dictionary's interpretation. If Webster's would have a noted line that said suicide was just a self inflicted injury this would have been over a year ago, but the family is stuck on the fact that the end of the statement in the definition says "with the intent to end one's life."

Semantics. Accidental suicide is what this case is. He took his own life out of ignorance. Thought it was not on purpose, he held the gun.

Those most this family could hope for is a new term of definition in the dictionary and then the coroner would have something he could liable this case. Under the circumstances suicide is the best fit. No one killed him but himself... homicide is defined as killing someone else... so they can't call it that. And accidental death isn't the right term to describe the event... so what this family is wanting is not only definable, yet, but basically for the death certificate to lie by definition of the cause of death.

There is no winning this argument because there is no technical way TO win this argument. The decision should sat and. Not only because 90% of the professionals have deemed it the right cause of death, but because it is the closest technical definition as to what happened... and as soon as a new technical definition comes into being to better describe the event then I should be changed... but until then the family should stop trying to beat the dead horse.

If they win they effectively and technically are lying about the terms of death...

Ithink

If it's a matter of semantics, then why doesn't the 'good' Dr Wukie just end this family's grief, change the certificate, and let them begin healing? That's all they asked for to begin with, almost 2 years ago. Don't ever give up when it comes to your child. Thank you for your continued coverage, SR.

vicariouslyAlive

Because there us no legal defining term. And to knowingly out down the wrong cause of death is fraud... so basically by asking him to change his mind, even though 9 out of 10 professionals said he did it right would be asking him to knowingly commit fraud...

The reason its termed the way it is is a fault of the system, not the man. Maybe the family should stop attacking a man that is bound by regulation and instead petition the legal system to recognise a term that can be put in the cause of death box on the paper.

Like I said before, there is no right answer because it doesn't exist. It's not defined therefore legally nonexistent. Yes the cause was accidental, but it was also self inflicted. Wukie is following the regulations set to him by the state to best describe the cause of death.

Or, maybe the family should let it be and turn all of their energy and efforts to accepting what has happened. They obviously don't want to hear the truth because they keep digging up abstract people to corroborate their side... then it goes through the system and the system gives them the same answer that they don't agree with. The don't want the truth, they want it their way.

Ithink

The 'man' represents the system. The family is taking measures to correct the system. However, as anyone knows, that can be a long, arduous process, just like this has turned out to be. They took the proper channels at the very beginning of this tragedy, yet 'the man' decided he was too good to address the family's concerns--then and now.

ChristineWiedle

If you simply feel that Jacob L. Limberios manner of death should be changed from Suicide to Accidental please reply " I do " with your real Name so maybe the Sandusky County Coroner Dr. Wukie would consider doing what is right and change Jake's Death Certificate. Everyone wants closure to this. Including Jake's family. The only one who is preventing this from happening is the Coroner by not changing the manner to what has been found as an accident.

" I Do " - Forever Young

Justiceforeveryone

I do!

MikeWiedle

I do

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