Baden wants death certificate changed

Famed medical examiner urges Wukie to correct his suicide ruling
Register
Jan 7, 2014

A renowned forensic pathologist who reviewed autopsy reports and what was left of forensic evidence in the death of Jacob Limberios says Sandusky County coroner John Wukie got it wrong, and he should fix the record.

"Jacob Limberios died as a result of an accidental gun discharge," Baden wrote in the sworn statement. "The manner of death on his death certificate should be changed to reflect this."

Read the affidavit here

But Wukie, who didn't conduct an investigation and is not a forensic pathologist, is sticking with the nonsensical wording in his ruling: "Suicide. Gunshot wound to head. Deceased shot self in head, may not have realized the gun was loaded.”

Wukie has declined comment to the Register about his ruling but during an interview Oct. 10 with a BCI agent he said knowing whether an individual intended to take his or her own life wasn't necessary to rule a death a suicide. 

Baden disagrees. 

"Suicide is the intentional taking of one's life as defined in medical and general dictionaries and in the practice of forensic pathology," Baden stated. 

Wukie had been represented by Tiffin attorney Dean Henry in a civil lawsuit filed by the Limberios family last year. That lawsuit has been dismissed, however, and it's unclear whether Henry continues to bill the county for his services on behalf of Wukie.

Henry has declined to offer responsive replies to inquiries from the Register. 

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Comments

Slimberios

I DO!

Jakes Dad

I Do!

"The Times They Are A-Changin'"-Bob Dylan

Jakes Dad

Ella Lee Limberios

I Do!

"I Shall Be Free"-Bob Dylan

Jmschmidt812

On the attack again. If you don't let the dust settle you'll never see a change in anything. The more you push the more resistance you're going to get. Revisit this case, oh I don't know, 6 months from now and see if that changed anything. But this constant attack on Wukie isn't going to make him change anything anytime soon.

nobodycares

Should read . Accidently killed by blonde girl friend !

Ithink

I do!

'Forever Young'- Bob Dylan

mikeylikesit

jesus Christ on a stick, change the damn thing!

Truth or Dare

So let me get this straight, IF the Limberios's just shut-up, for awhile at least and tell the SR to stop w/the written attacks on Wukie, to back off and let the dust settle, he JUST MIGHT decide to change the Death Certificate? Even our OAG stated it was a terrible accident, as well commented as to how their investigation was hindered due to the way the so-called investigation was (mis)handled by all involved from the git-go!

For the sake of the residents of SC and the future, I'm hoping a couple of someone's with a conscience will decide to step up and challenge Wukie and the Sherriff, and am left wondering how that ethics probe is going.

I DO - Vicki, an Erie County Resident. My full name, address, phone # and comments are and have been on record with the OAG's office regarding how I feel about this case.

Jmschmidt812

Dr. Wukie is under no obligation to change the cause of the death. This poor young man caused his own death, that's exactly what the AG's office said. Although it was accidental, he still died by his own hand. This is a tragic loss that all could have been avoided had he just left the gun at home.

deertracker

Still doesn't make it suicide.

Jmschmidt812

It absolutely does.

Sam

What would a week without yet another article on this subject, must be some sort of record. Question, this so called expert aka "hired gun" was chief medical examiner for one year 34 years ago, did he conduct an autopsy on the body, personally interview all parties involved or relied on the information given to him by the family attorney?

Babo

Yes, I agree it's a "bare bones" affidavit that draws conclusions without any reference to specific facts. Why would any attorney enter such a misleading document in a court file AFTER dismissing the case, other than an attempt to unduly influence or intimidate a public official in the performance of his duties?

People have been indicted for intimidation on a lot less.

Concerned For A...

Shouldn't a copy of the Medical Examiners reports and findings be attached? I'm sure it is, they just aren't posting it in the paper. This can't possibly be the only thing filed.

Ohio

(Ohio Rev. Code § 313.10)

Coroner's report, including detailed descriptions and conclusions, are public records. The law exempts:

● preliminary notes and findings,

● photos,

● suicide notes,

● medical and psychiatric records,

● confidential law enforcement investigatory records, and

● lab reports generated from an analysis of physical evidence.

The coroner must release the report, including the otherwise exempt material (“full and complete records”), at the written request of various surviving family members or next of kin.

A reporter may submit a written request to view the coroner's preliminary investigative notes and findings, suicide notes, and photos. The request must state that granting it would serve the public's best interest. The coroner must grant the request; the reporter cannot copy the information or photos.

An insurer may submit a written request to the coroner to obtain a copy of the full and complete records of the coroner with respect to a deceased person.

So my understanding from this law is that the register and the public can't view the actual autopsy report, which I'm sure is attached to this affidavit to support his findings that the death is in fact accidental. Ohio is an open record state, but not for everything.

Babo

Except that this Affidavit is from Dr. Baden who is not an Ohio Coroner so this law does not apply to him. He is offering an Affidavit as an expert witness, not as the Coroner who made the actual ruling.

If Dr. Baden conducted any independent inquiry he would have attached the exhibits to his Affidavit and these attachments would be cited in a specific paragraph. Similarly, if he was relying on facts in the AG's report or some other report he should have referenced that report by page and paragraph or line number to support his conclusions.

Ithink

How does that differ from Wukie not ordering an autopsy, let alone going to the scene of a gunshot victim? He (Wukie) relied on SC LE, and we all know how honest they are, right?

Babo

An Affidavit has to list facts in support of an expert's conclusion. Dr. Baden established that he is an expert but he didn't provide any
facts to support his conclusion. Further his conclusion does not consider the factors mentioned in the standard text. (See citation above by Nor'Easter.)

This is hard to accept but to overturn a finding you must have clear and convincing evidence that Dr. Wukie's ruling is erroneous. This Affidavit does not rise to that level and would likely not even be admitted in a court proceeding due to the lack of factual support. There is simply no legal reason to place this document into the public domain (especially after the case was dismissed) other than to harass Dr. Wukie and to try to intimidate him into changing his ruling.

Finally, Nor'Easter found a citation from yet another reference that defines accidental suicide. When one reviews Jacob's pattern of reckless conduct (including his knowledge that the gun was loaded) and the continuing refusal to release the nature of his mental health diagnosis and medications; then Dr. Wukie's conclusion is readily defensible.

Sad as this is to say, the facts as reported by SC LE to Dr Wukie at the time have been proven to be accurate. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

You and your team need to be better than SC LE. Stop these attacks on Dr. Wukie and recognize that the real culprits are LE and lawyers who are protecting their system or trying to make a name for themselves.

mamaC

Dr. Baden was Not "hired" by the family...

Sam

Someone is paying him, he doesn't give his "expertise" away.

Simple Enough II

I wonder how long it will be before the family files a "wrongful death" suit against the revolver manufacturer? Will they also include the stores that sold the beer, the family friend who made (what appears to be a classic case of straw purchase of a firearm)purchase of the revolver, are they also going to include the gun shop that sold the firearm? I'll wait and see how long it takes and how wide the net is cast.

starryeyes83

They need to look in the mirror, then, for allowing him to have a gun in their home.

The prescription pill bottle usually have a warning label on them about "Driving and handling dangerous machinery ( this case: weapon) while taking such and such medication" . I'm pretty sure they're off the hook.

Simple Enough II

Well he was under 21 years of age, living under their roof, they knew he was in possesion of them, so yeah I guess they could include themselves. I don't know when his situtation of being under the care of a shrink or being on any medications came to light? I did look up that firearms manufacturer and their firearms safety directions were quite extensive on the use and handeling of their products, wonder if JL even bothered to read it...

starryeyes83

Sorry, I meant the pharmacy and drug company were off the hook ,in regards to the pills, not the parents.

I should have clarified better.

So much of this information has not been disclosed and I doubt it ever will.

Nor'easter

accidental suicide
Web definitions

When someone makes it look as if they are attempting suicide in order to get people to listen to them or pay attention to their needs, but they miscalculate and die.
http://www.depression-guide.com/...

deertracker

Not the case here!

Commenter

Here is what I think. I think Wukie should change the death certificate and see if this whole thing gets dropped. He didn't commit suicide in the sense that everyone thinks of suicide, set out to kill himself. If he did, we will never know only Jake knows that. But from all perspective it was an accident. Let him rest in peace, let his family grieve.

Justiceforeveryone

Vicariouslyalive posted:
It'a a game of semantics and a dictionary's interpretation. If Webster's would have a noted line that said suicide was just a self inflicted injury this would have been over a year ago, but the family is stuck on the fact that the end of the statement in the definition says "with the intent to end one's life."
There is a reason why words have definitions and suicide and self-inflicted injury have different meanings. If suicide's definition was simply a self-inflicted injury then let's say someone was working on their jammed gun and it went off shooting themself in the leg but the person didn't die. What would you consider that "attempted suicide"? Or let's say that same person hit an artery in their leg and bleed to death what would you consider that "suicide"?
I do think Jake' death should be accidental death whether it was by himself or someone else( or investigated as a possible homicide.)There is no proof that he shoot himself or that someone else did because most of the evidence was thrown away or not collected. The only reason it was said to be suicide is because the witnesses claimed he shot himself and said they witnessed it at first but later after failing lie detector tests claim that they weren't looking at him when the gun went off but say he was the last one holding the gun, etc. either way there was no proper investigation that night to determine if it was suicide or homicide the only right thing that should be done now it to label it as accidental death.

Nor'easter

This is what the official has a a reference book from Centers for Disease Control:

From the Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting 2013 Edition

Pages 21 & 22:

"One of the more difficult tasks of the medical examiner or coroner is to determine whether a death is an accident or the result of an intent to end life. The medical examiner or coroner must use all information available to make a determination about the death. This may include information from his or her own investigation, police reports, staff investigations, and discussions with the family and friends of the decedent.

Determining a suicide
+ There is evidence that death was self-inflicted. Pathological (autopsy), toxicological, investigatory, and psychological evidence, and statements of the decedent or witnesses, may be used for this determination.

Ctwhalers

Way to go mike Christine and jakes dad and the rest of the J4J suppsupporters

mstacy

I Do!

"Johnny is in the basement mixing up the medicine."-Bob Dylan

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