Baden wants death certificate changed

Famed medical examiner urges Wukie to correct his suicide ruling
Register
Jan 7, 2014

 

A renowned forensic pathologist who reviewed autopsy reports and what was left of forensic evidence in the death of Jacob Limberios says Sandusky County coroner John Wukie got it wrong, and he should fix the record.

"Jacob Limberios died as a result of an accidental gun discharge," Baden wrote in the sworn statement. "The manner of death on his death certificate should be changed to reflect this."

Read the affidavit here

But Wukie, who didn't conduct an investigation and is not a forensic pathologist, is sticking with the nonsensical wording in his ruling: "Suicide. Gunshot wound to head. Deceased shot self in head, may not have realized the gun was loaded.”

Wukie has declined comment to the Register about his ruling but during an interview Oct. 10 with a BCI agent he said knowing whether an individual intended to take his or her own life wasn't necessary to rule a death a suicide. 

Baden disagrees. 

"Suicide is the intentional taking of one's life as defined in medical and general dictionaries and in the practice of forensic pathology," Baden stated. 

Wukie had been represented by Tiffin attorney Dean Henry in a civil lawsuit filed by the Limberios family last year. That lawsuit has been dismissed, however, and it's unclear whether Henry continues to bill the county for his services on behalf of Wukie.

Henry has declined to offer responsive replies to inquiries from the Register. 

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Comments

vicariouslyAlive

If wukie really wants to one up this media crazed family he would cha he the death certificate. Change it to what it really was, it a dry. "Accidental self inflicted gun shot to the head cause by ignorance and incompetence."

That way the family wins their "it wasn't suicide" and the rest of us that are thinking the same thing can stop seeing this tired article in the paper... after a certain point persistent pleas for "the truth" seems a bit straining when you have 9 out of 10 professionals telling you that the truth isn't what you want to hear. Of course there will always be someone in the professional realm that won't agree... just look at tooth paste advertisements where only 4 out of 5 agree... but at some point you tend to lose the emotional backing from the public when your cry for the "truth" starts to look like a cry for agreeance on your opinion...

Nor'easter

From the Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting 2013 Edition

Pages 21 & 22:

"One of the more difficult tasks of the medical examiner or coroner is to determine whether a death is an accident or the result of an intent to end life. The medical examiner or coroner must use all information available to make a determination about the death. This may include information from his or her own investigation, police reports, staff investigations, and dis cussions with the family and friends of the decedent.

Determining a suicide
+ There is evidence that death was self-inflicted. Pathological (autopsy), toxicological, investigatory, and psychological evidence, and state ments of the decedent or witnesses, may be used for this determina tion.
+ There is evidence (explicit and/or implicit) that at the time of injury the decedent intended to kill self or wished to die and that the decedent understood the probable consequences of his or her actions.
+ Explicit verbal or nonverbal expression of intent to kill self
+ Implicit or indirect evidence of intent to die, such as the following:

21

+ Expression of hopelessness
+ Effort to procure or learn about means of death or rehearse fatal behavior
+ Preparations for death, inappropriate to or unexpected in the context of the decedent’s life
+ Expression of farewell or desire to die, or acknowledgment of impending death
+ Precautions to avoid rescue
+ Evidence that decedent recognized high potential lethality of means of death
+ Previous suicide attempt
+ Previous suicide threat
+ Stressful events or significant losses (actual or threatened)
+ Serious depression or mental disorder (10,11) "

There is clearly 2 sides to this story. Investigative reporting instead of media sensationalism would be much appreciated.

Babo

Thought the case was dismissed? So why is an Affidavit dated January 6, 2014 from a retired Medical Examiner (paid expert) being offered at this time?

In other posts, I suggested the family contact a physician/attorney to approach Dr. Wukie as a peer in an effort to have him voluntarily revisit his determination through an Inquest without all the sensationalism created by an attorney who is not qualified in my opinion to bring this case. Instead, the attorney has decided to ratchet it up again after dismissing the case with the filing of a misleading affidavit.

From the Reference Book cited above, the following factors support a finding of suicide:

+ There is evidence that death was self-inflicted.

All the evidence points to and supports that the gun shot to the head was self-inflicted.

+ There is evidence (explicit and/or implicit) that at the time of injury the decedent intended to kill self or wished to die and that the decedent understood the probable consequences of his or her actions.

There is evidence that implicitly suggests that Jacob understood that holding a gun to his head would lead to the probable consequence of the gun discharging.

+ Effort to procure or learn about means of death or rehearse fatal behavior.

There is evidence that shows Jacob mishandled the gun in the past.

+ Evidence that decedent recognized high potential lethality of means of death.

There is evidence that shows Jacob knew mishandling a gun had a high potential for lethality.

+ Previous suicide attempt
+ Previous suicide threat

The public has no information on these factors because the family has chosen not to disclose his mental health records. However, Dr. Wukie would have access to this information.

+ Stressful events or significant losses (actual or threatened)

We know Jacob lost his job and there appears to have been problems or perceived problems with his relationship with the mother of his child.

+ Serious depression or mental disorder (10,11)

The public knows that Jacob was under the treatment of a psychiatrist and prescribed drug(s). Thus, Jacob had a diagnosed mental disorder.

The point is there is evidence to support Dr. Wukie's finding and continuing to beat him over the head with a paid expert's opinion that does not cite any reports in support will not cause him to change his finding.

There is a little known criminal statute that makes it a felony to use court documents or internet statements to intimidate public officials or to try to interfere with the performance of their duties.
RC 2921.03. Dean Henry is just the kind of sleaze-ball special prosecutor who wouldn't hesitate to indict someone here.

Ithink

Babo-"I suggested the family contact a physician/attorney to approach Dr. Wukie as a peer in an effort to have him voluntarily revisit his determination through an Inquest...". Excuse me, but who are you and why does your opinion matter so much in this case? Just asking. Are you in any way, related to one of the infamous 3 witnesses? Wukie? SC LE?

Babo

1. Who am I? I am a concerned and well educated citizen who has followed law enforcement alleged misconduct cases for a long time.

2. You are assuming my "opinion should matter so much". My opinions are based on my education/experience and well intended to provide the family with alternatives to litigation. Obviously, the family solicits opinions because it actively encourages articles and comments in this newspaper and on Facebook. The family is free to consider or not consider anyone's opinions as posted.

3. I am not in any way related to the 3 witnesses, Dr. Wukie, or SC LE. In fact, I've opined that SC LE, Prosecutor Stierwalt, and SP Dean Henry ought to be the focus of a federal investigation. My personal feeling is that Dr. Wukie is the victim of legal malpractice and of naively relying on SC LE to be professional.

Verum_ad_astra

Sleaze-ball? Have you ever met him? Have you ever had a conversation with him?

Babo

Etiam. Verbum sapienti satis est

Verum_ad_astra

Non credo vos.

Babo

Amicule, num is sum qui mentiar tibi? :)

Homines libenter quod volunt credunt

Verum_ad_astra

Noveritis antequam loquaris.

Babo

Pax tecum

Verum_ad_astra

Et cumm spiritu tuo.

Ctwhalers

Great article. I agree with Baden you got it wrong change it. But that still does not excuse mistakes made by sandusky county. So even if death certificate is changed you to go after sandusky county for there botched up job. Keep up the good work register and matt.

Simple Enough II

So what changed? Remember didn't the J4J&E cabal along with his family push the original theory that he was shot by one of the other 3? We get it, you don't like our bucolic little county run by interbred hicks who can't find their way out of a revolving door. Just move on to the next drama spread the Register prints.

mamaC

http://www.change.org/petitions/...

Please Sign & Support our new campaign " Dr. Wukie change Jake's Death Certificate from suicide to accidental'

Simple Enough II

No thanks.

BULLISDEEP's picture
BULLISDEEP

They drop the law suit ,but then want you to sign a petition. NO THANKS

starryeyes83

No thanks ... Let's see they dropped the suit oh, well,,, until next week - then it'll be back on. Again.

And round and round they go..

starryeyes83

.

Cowboy

Enough already!!!!

Ithink

Would you say that if it were your child?

WeThePeople1965

How many expert medical examiner statements is it going to take for the death certificate to be changed? I agree with Baden, suicide is not the correct term. You can sit and argue your point all day, I quite frankly don't have time, but I know Jacob didn't accidentally shoot himself. There is no way someone in their right mind, under the influence or not, would point a loaded gun at such a weird angle and oops! Truth may never come out and that's fine, the truth rests with Jacob and God. If someone hasn't been honest, they'll have to answer for it one day.

MissPatti

Those of you who seem 'tired' of this story are certainly not required to read it. I, for one, am inspired by this family, who refuse to be complacent in the face of injustice.

vicariouslyAlive

It'a a game of semantics and a dictionary's interpretation. If Webster's would have a noted line that said suicide was just a self inflicted injury this would have been over a year ago, but the family is stuck on the fact that the end of the statement in the definition says "with the intent to end one's life."

Semantics. Accidental suicide is what this case is. He took his own life out of ignorance. Thought it was not on purpose, he held the gun.

Those most this family could hope for is a new term of definition in the dictionary and then the coroner would have something he could liable this case. Under the circumstances suicide is the best fit. No one killed him but himself... homicide is defined as killing someone else... so they can't call it that. And accidental death isn't the right term to describe the event... so what this family is wanting is not only definable, yet, but basically for the death certificate to lie by definition of the cause of death.

There is no winning this argument because there is no technical way TO win this argument. The decision should sat and. Not only because 90% of the professionals have deemed it the right cause of death, but because it is the closest technical definition as to what happened... and as soon as a new technical definition comes into being to better describe the event then I should be changed... but until then the family should stop trying to beat the dead horse.

If they win they effectively and technically are lying about the terms of death...

Ithink

If it's a matter of semantics, then why doesn't the 'good' Dr Wukie just end this family's grief, change the certificate, and let them begin healing? That's all they asked for to begin with, almost 2 years ago. Don't ever give up when it comes to your child. Thank you for your continued coverage, SR.

vicariouslyAlive

Because there us no legal defining term. And to knowingly out down the wrong cause of death is fraud... so basically by asking him to change his mind, even though 9 out of 10 professionals said he did it right would be asking him to knowingly commit fraud...

The reason its termed the way it is is a fault of the system, not the man. Maybe the family should stop attacking a man that is bound by regulation and instead petition the legal system to recognise a term that can be put in the cause of death box on the paper.

Like I said before, there is no right answer because it doesn't exist. It's not defined therefore legally nonexistent. Yes the cause was accidental, but it was also self inflicted. Wukie is following the regulations set to him by the state to best describe the cause of death.

Or, maybe the family should let it be and turn all of their energy and efforts to accepting what has happened. They obviously don't want to hear the truth because they keep digging up abstract people to corroborate their side... then it goes through the system and the system gives them the same answer that they don't agree with. The don't want the truth, they want it their way.

Ithink

The 'man' represents the system. The family is taking measures to correct the system. However, as anyone knows, that can be a long, arduous process, just like this has turned out to be. They took the proper channels at the very beginning of this tragedy, yet 'the man' decided he was too good to address the family's concerns--then and now.

ChristineWiedle

If you simply feel that Jacob L. Limberios manner of death should be changed from Suicide to Accidental please reply " I do " with your real Name so maybe the Sandusky County Coroner Dr. Wukie would consider doing what is right and change Jake's Death Certificate. Everyone wants closure to this. Including Jake's family. The only one who is preventing this from happening is the Coroner by not changing the manner to what has been found as an accident.

" I Do " - Forever Young

Justiceforeveryone

I do!

MikeWiedle

I do

Slimberios

I DO!

Jakes Dad

I Do!

"The Times They Are A-Changin'"-Bob Dylan

Jakes Dad

Ella Lee Limberios

I Do!

"I Shall Be Free"-Bob Dylan

Jmschmidt812

On the attack again. If you don't let the dust settle you'll never see a change in anything. The more you push the more resistance you're going to get. Revisit this case, oh I don't know, 6 months from now and see if that changed anything. But this constant attack on Wukie isn't going to make him change anything anytime soon.

nobodycares

Should read . Accidently killed by blonde girl friend !

Ithink

I do!

'Forever Young'- Bob Dylan

mikeylikesit

jesus Christ on a stick, change the damn thing!

Truth or Dare

So let me get this straight, IF the Limberios's just shut-up, for awhile at least and tell the SR to stop w/the written attacks on Wukie, to back off and let the dust settle, he JUST MIGHT decide to change the Death Certificate? Even our OAG stated it was a terrible accident, as well commented as to how their investigation was hindered due to the way the so-called investigation was (mis)handled by all involved from the git-go!

For the sake of the residents of SC and the future, I'm hoping a couple of someone's with a conscience will decide to step up and challenge Wukie and the Sherriff, and am left wondering how that ethics probe is going.

I DO - Vicki, an Erie County Resident. My full name, address, phone # and comments are and have been on record with the OAG's office regarding how I feel about this case.

Jmschmidt812

Dr. Wukie is under no obligation to change the cause of the death. This poor young man caused his own death, that's exactly what the AG's office said. Although it was accidental, he still died by his own hand. This is a tragic loss that all could have been avoided had he just left the gun at home.

deertracker

Still doesn't make it suicide.

Jmschmidt812

It absolutely does.

Sam

What would a week without yet another article on this subject, must be some sort of record. Question, this so called expert aka "hired gun" was chief medical examiner for one year 34 years ago, did he conduct an autopsy on the body, personally interview all parties involved or relied on the information given to him by the family attorney?

Babo

Yes, I agree it's a "bare bones" affidavit that draws conclusions without any reference to specific facts. Why would any attorney enter such a misleading document in a court file AFTER dismissing the case, other than an attempt to unduly influence or intimidate a public official in the performance of his duties?

People have been indicted for intimidation on a lot less.

Concerned For A...

Shouldn't a copy of the Medical Examiners reports and findings be attached? I'm sure it is, they just aren't posting it in the paper. This can't possibly be the only thing filed.

Ohio

(Ohio Rev. Code § 313.10)

Coroner's report, including detailed descriptions and conclusions, are public records. The law exempts:

● preliminary notes and findings,

● photos,

● suicide notes,

● medical and psychiatric records,

● confidential law enforcement investigatory records, and

● lab reports generated from an analysis of physical evidence.

The coroner must release the report, including the otherwise exempt material (“full and complete records”), at the written request of various surviving family members or next of kin.

A reporter may submit a written request to view the coroner's preliminary investigative notes and findings, suicide notes, and photos. The request must state that granting it would serve the public's best interest. The coroner must grant the request; the reporter cannot copy the information or photos.

An insurer may submit a written request to the coroner to obtain a copy of the full and complete records of the coroner with respect to a deceased person.

So my understanding from this law is that the register and the public can't view the actual autopsy report, which I'm sure is attached to this affidavit to support his findings that the death is in fact accidental. Ohio is an open record state, but not for everything.

Babo

Except that this Affidavit is from Dr. Baden who is not an Ohio Coroner so this law does not apply to him. He is offering an Affidavit as an expert witness, not as the Coroner who made the actual ruling.

If Dr. Baden conducted any independent inquiry he would have attached the exhibits to his Affidavit and these attachments would be cited in a specific paragraph. Similarly, if he was relying on facts in the AG's report or some other report he should have referenced that report by page and paragraph or line number to support his conclusions.

Ithink

How does that differ from Wukie not ordering an autopsy, let alone going to the scene of a gunshot victim? He (Wukie) relied on SC LE, and we all know how honest they are, right?

Babo

An Affidavit has to list facts in support of an expert's conclusion. Dr. Baden established that he is an expert but he didn't provide any
facts to support his conclusion. Further his conclusion does not consider the factors mentioned in the standard text. (See citation above by Nor'Easter.)

This is hard to accept but to overturn a finding you must have clear and convincing evidence that Dr. Wukie's ruling is erroneous. This Affidavit does not rise to that level and would likely not even be admitted in a court proceeding due to the lack of factual support. There is simply no legal reason to place this document into the public domain (especially after the case was dismissed) other than to harass Dr. Wukie and to try to intimidate him into changing his ruling.

Finally, Nor'Easter found a citation from yet another reference that defines accidental suicide. When one reviews Jacob's pattern of reckless conduct (including his knowledge that the gun was loaded) and the continuing refusal to release the nature of his mental health diagnosis and medications; then Dr. Wukie's conclusion is readily defensible.

Sad as this is to say, the facts as reported by SC LE to Dr Wukie at the time have been proven to be accurate. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

You and your team need to be better than SC LE. Stop these attacks on Dr. Wukie and recognize that the real culprits are LE and lawyers who are protecting their system or trying to make a name for themselves.

mamaC

Dr. Baden was Not "hired" by the family...

Sam

Someone is paying him, he doesn't give his "expertise" away.

Simple Enough II

I wonder how long it will be before the family files a "wrongful death" suit against the revolver manufacturer? Will they also include the stores that sold the beer, the family friend who made (what appears to be a classic case of straw purchase of a firearm)purchase of the revolver, are they also going to include the gun shop that sold the firearm? I'll wait and see how long it takes and how wide the net is cast.

starryeyes83

They need to look in the mirror, then, for allowing him to have a gun in their home.

The prescription pill bottle usually have a warning label on them about "Driving and handling dangerous machinery ( this case: weapon) while taking such and such medication" . I'm pretty sure they're off the hook.

Simple Enough II

Well he was under 21 years of age, living under their roof, they knew he was in possesion of them, so yeah I guess they could include themselves. I don't know when his situtation of being under the care of a shrink or being on any medications came to light? I did look up that firearms manufacturer and their firearms safety directions were quite extensive on the use and handeling of their products, wonder if JL even bothered to read it...

starryeyes83

Sorry, I meant the pharmacy and drug company were off the hook ,in regards to the pills, not the parents.

I should have clarified better.

So much of this information has not been disclosed and I doubt it ever will.

Nor'easter

accidental suicide
Web definitions

When someone makes it look as if they are attempting suicide in order to get people to listen to them or pay attention to their needs, but they miscalculate and die.
http://www.depression-guide.com/...

deertracker

Not the case here!

Commenter

Here is what I think. I think Wukie should change the death certificate and see if this whole thing gets dropped. He didn't commit suicide in the sense that everyone thinks of suicide, set out to kill himself. If he did, we will never know only Jake knows that. But from all perspective it was an accident. Let him rest in peace, let his family grieve.

Justiceforeveryone

Vicariouslyalive posted:
It'a a game of semantics and a dictionary's interpretation. If Webster's would have a noted line that said suicide was just a self inflicted injury this would have been over a year ago, but the family is stuck on the fact that the end of the statement in the definition says "with the intent to end one's life."
There is a reason why words have definitions and suicide and self-inflicted injury have different meanings. If suicide's definition was simply a self-inflicted injury then let's say someone was working on their jammed gun and it went off shooting themself in the leg but the person didn't die. What would you consider that "attempted suicide"? Or let's say that same person hit an artery in their leg and bleed to death what would you consider that "suicide"?
I do think Jake' death should be accidental death whether it was by himself or someone else( or investigated as a possible homicide.)There is no proof that he shoot himself or that someone else did because most of the evidence was thrown away or not collected. The only reason it was said to be suicide is because the witnesses claimed he shot himself and said they witnessed it at first but later after failing lie detector tests claim that they weren't looking at him when the gun went off but say he was the last one holding the gun, etc. either way there was no proper investigation that night to determine if it was suicide or homicide the only right thing that should be done now it to label it as accidental death.

Nor'easter

This is what the official has a a reference book from Centers for Disease Control:

From the Medical Examiners' and Coroners' Handbook on Death Registration and Fetal Death Reporting 2013 Edition

Pages 21 & 22:

"One of the more difficult tasks of the medical examiner or coroner is to determine whether a death is an accident or the result of an intent to end life. The medical examiner or coroner must use all information available to make a determination about the death. This may include information from his or her own investigation, police reports, staff investigations, and discussions with the family and friends of the decedent.

Determining a suicide
+ There is evidence that death was self-inflicted. Pathological (autopsy), toxicological, investigatory, and psychological evidence, and statements of the decedent or witnesses, may be used for this determination.

Ctwhalers

Way to go mike Christine and jakes dad and the rest of the J4J suppsupporters

mstacy

I Do!

"Johnny is in the basement mixing up the medicine."-Bob Dylan

Babo

I think it's a sad commentary that there's so much misunderstanding of mental illness and suicide.

Kottage Kat

I do
Kat Kelley

JUSTICE. 4. JAKE

Sal Dali

Baden has no self interest in the manner of Jacob's death; he wants the final official finding by the AG's office on the death certificate. The state called him in, not the Limberios family. Wukie's refusal to change the manner of death does not make his determination correct; however, it does make him appear as if he has an ax to grind or a pony in the race. Most professionals take the professional opinions of other professionals into consideration.

Like it or not folks, Baden has far more expertise than Wukie. No one is going to call Wukie to get his expert opinion for anything. The people in Sandusky County just have no other choice right now. They're stuck with him. Baden's opinion is also based on the new improved version from the witnesses that Jake was scratching his head with the gun story and the faulty trigger theory.

The forensic pathologist hired by the Limberios family determined Jake did not shoot himself based on trajectory and stippling or the lack thereof. Wouldn't it all just have been much clearer if Wukie had shown up like he should have that night and he and BCI or the SCSD would have conducted a proper death investigation by the books (his job)? No throwing away bloody evidence, no joking about a dead young man, no interviewing witnesses together, stuff like that, which should have been deemed important?

For everyone complaining about the rehashing of this story, would you appreciate being cheated of an investigation if your child were shot dead and law enforcement nor the coroner lifted a finger to investigate when it occurred? If you don't have children, you cannot honestly reply, so you should not complain. Only a parent knows the grief Mike and Shannon are going through. Jake's daughter doesn't see daddy anymore...I cannot imagine the heartbreak and confusion of a small child having her father ripped away from her at such a young age...no one can.

This family knew their son better than anyone posting on this page, shame on everyone for being cruel with their "expert" opinions on suicide. Suicide does involve intent; an accident is an accident. If you cut your finger off with a knife while slicing a tomato because the handle broke, you didn't intentionally cut off your finger carelessly and ignorantly did you? Accidents happen and are ruled accidental when a death occurs as a result.

Wukie is being stubborn and afraid if he changes his ruling, he will be admitting he didn't do his job right in the first place. This young man deserves to have the manner of death changed on his death certificate and so much more as well as his family. My thoughts and prayers are and always will be with this family, the justice system failed them and their son.

Simple Enough II

Explain to me what was the joking about? What I mean by that question, is what was the conversation that had them laughing?

Sal Dali

One of the family members has previously stated that he overheard one of the deputies make a comment about who was going to have to clean up and laughed about it while this family member (Jacob's father as I recall) was outside the home where Jacob was shot. NOT FUNNY. I could go back and wade through all the articles to see if any particular deputy was named, but then again, so could you. It happened, it was crude and there is no place in public service for brainless nit-wits like this, especially at a crime scene where someone has lost their life.

Babo

Please explain to me how a death as a result of extremely reckless conduct and self absorbed behavior is easier to explain to a child than a death due to mental health issues? With the former, wouldn't you agree that the parents bear a lot of responsibility for not raising their son to be responsible and not controlling his access to the gun?

I don't intend for this to sound harsh, but for me it would be much easier to accept that my child had mental health issues that ultimately resulted in his death than to accept that I raised a child that had such poor judgment.

With the accident theory one has to question whether Jacob was even fit to be a father and if Children's Services should not have been involved. For example, do you think people would react differently if the decedent in this case was Jermaine, a young black man from Sandusky Ohio?

It really bothers me that this family and friends have so much prejudice about mental illness and the mentally ill and seem ashamed to consider that their son/friend(under the care of psychiatrist and on meds that they refuse to disclose)did have some issues. For me the undisclosed medication(s) play a big part. Especially since these types of drugs are prone to abuse and according to one report, Jacob had a drug or drugs in his pocket that one of the witnesses wanted.

I agree that Law enforcement really botched the initial investigation, but that's an issue for the Feds, not a blog or an online Petition.