Churches changing

Places of worship modify bylaws after gay marriage ruling
Associated Press
Aug 25, 2013

 

Worried they could be sued by gay couples, some churches are changing their bylaws to reflect their view that the Bible allows only marriage between one man and one woman.

Although there have been lawsuits against wedding industry businesses that refuse to serve gay couples, attorneys promoting the bylaw changes say they don't know of any lawsuits against churches.

Critics say the changes are unnecessary, but some churches fear that it's only a matter of time before one of them is sued.

"I thought marriage was always between one man and one woman, but the Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision said no," said Gregory S. Erwin, an attorney for the Louisiana Baptist Convention, an association of Southern Baptist churches and one several groups advising churches to change their bylaws. "I think it's better to be prepared because the law is changing. America is changing."

In a June decision, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a provision of the federal Defense of Marriage Act that defined marriage as between a man and a woman for purposes of federal law. A second decision was more technical but essentially ushered in legal gay marriage in California.

Kevin Snider is an attorney with the Pacific Justice Institute, a nonprofit legal defense group that specializes in conservative Christian issues. His organization released a model marriage policy a few years ago in response to a statewide gay marriage fight in California. Snider said some religious leaders have been threatened with lawsuits for declining to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies.

Dean Inserra, head pastor of the 1,000-member City Church Tallahassee, based in Florida, said he does not want to be alarmist, but his church is looking into how best to address the issue.

Inserra said he already has had to say no to gay friends who wanted him to perform a wedding ceremony.

"We have some gay couples that attend our church. What happens when they ask us to do their wedding?" Inserra said. "What happens when we say no? Is it going to be treated like a civil rights thing?"

Critics, including some gay Christian leaders, argue that the changes amount to a solution looking for a problem.

"They seem to be under the impression that there is this huge movement with the goal of forcing them to perform ceremonies that violate their freedom of religion," said Justin Lee, executive director of the Gay Christian Network, a nonprofit that provides support for gay Christians and their friends and families and encourages churches to be more welcoming.

"If anyone tried to force a church to perform a ceremony against their will, I would be the first person to stand up in that church's defense."

Thirteen states and the District of Columbia now recognize gay marriage.

Some Christian denominations, such as the United Church of Christ, accept gay marriage. The Episcopal Church recently approved a blessing for same-sex couples, but each bishop must decide whether to allow the ceremony in his or her local diocese.

The majority of Christian denominations, however, view homosexual relationships as sinful. In more hierarchical denominations, like the Roman Catholic Church or the United Methodist Church, individual churches are bound by the policies of the larger denomination. But nondenominational churches and those loosely affiliated with more established groups often individually decide how to address social issues such as gay marriage.

Eric Rassbach is an attorney with the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, a public interest legal group that defends the free expression rights of all faiths. He said it is unlikely the government would try to force a pastor to perform a same-sex marriage, but churches that rent out their facilities to the general public could face problems if they refuse to rent to gay couples.

Although his organization has not advocated it, he said it could strengthen a church's legal position to adopt a statement explaining its beliefs about marriage.

"A number of groups don't have a written doctrine," Rassbach said. "Say a group like the Primitive Baptists — they don't want a written-down credo, but the courts like written-down things."

Rassbach said it was important for churches to get their beliefs in writing before a dispute arises, otherwise it can look to a court as if something was done after the fact as an attempt to cover up hostility to gays.

Airline Baptist Church Senior Pastor Chad Mills said members of the public use their facilities in Bossier City, La., for many activities, including Zumba classes. In the past, anyone who could pay the fee was allowed to reserve the space. But recently, the church changed its rental policy to allow wedding-related events only for male-female couples.

Some denominations are less concerned about the Supreme Court rulings. The Assemblies of God, the group of churches comprising the world's largest Pentecostal denomination, sought legal advice after the rulings. An attorney for the group distributed a memo to ministers saying there was no reason to change their bylaws.

However, the memo also said that "doing so is not inappropriate, and may be warranted based on future rulings by the Supreme Court and other state and federal courts."

The bylaw changes are coming at a time when many churches are wrestling with gay marriage in general and are working hard to be more welcoming to gays and lesbians.

"It's probably one of the most difficult issues our churches are facing right now," said Doug Anderson, a national coordinator with the evangelical Vineyard Church. "It's almost an impossible situation to reconcile what's going on in our culture, and our whole theology of welcoming and loving people, versus what it says in the Bible."

 

Comments

nonconformist

People are still free to practice their religious beliefs. One simple answer here: separation of church and state. I can't imagine anyone having the Gaul to sue a church no matter wht side of the fence our on. Frivolous to say the least.

Eph 2 8-10

People are free to do as they will and I'm talking about the LGBT community. I don't hold it against them or hate them. However, God's Word is unchangeable and says marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe in God's Word. And I also am commanded not to judge anyone lest I be judged. But, please, don't try to force your lifestyle on me. Thank you.

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

The most quoted, taken out of context, verse in the Bible, is Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged."

Is it true that Christians are told not to judge? The answer is no.

1 Cor 6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?"

The primary stipulation given for Christians regarding judging is that we are not to proclaim our own judgments, (based on our opinions) but to pronounce the judgments of God (based on truth).

Most often, those who tell you "not to judge" do so while they scream, "You are a bigot, hatemonger, intolerant person” (which are judgments in themselves). However, God clearly commands us to judge so we won’t be deceived. We do have to judge what is sin and what isn't. There is a difference between judging an act, and judging a person.

If the church stops judging, we will no longer be able to distinguish good from evil, we will buy into the politically correct idea of moral relativism, and we will bow down to the devil’s wishes to deceive us.

Eph 5:11 “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

44846GWP

You won't find the word "marrige" anywhere in the bible, or that its just between a man and a woman.

anthras

Marriage between a man and a woman was instituted by God with Adam and Eve. Genesis 2:24 states: "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."

In Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus reaffirms this: "He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?"

anthras

You might read

Hebrews 13:4 ESV
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

I can also remember reading that Jesus and his diciples did attend a "Wedding" at Cana.

Eph 2 8-10

Thank you. Jesus also said, "Judge not lest you be judged....," Mt 7:1-2.

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

Try reading it in context.

The passage is actually a condemnation of hypocrisy, not judgment. Jesus’ counsel is to tend to our own behavior and attitudes before attempting to help anyone else. If we attempt to judge before doing so, our judgment will be flawed by our own “splinters.” But the passage is in no way forbidding judgment.

44846GWP

Oh, thinkagain....just go away...have a cup of shut the ---k up.

bnjjad

You would think as one of the biggest complainers about these stories she would not actually click on them.

concernedtruth

It's real simple do you stand for GOD or man, if you stand for GOD you are on the only right track and have eternal life, if you choose man, you have the smoking section of eternity and you will regret it. "But as for me and my house, I will serve the LORD"!! Those churches and pastors that choose to stand against the Word of God will fall and pay the price of hypocrisy.

bnjjad

Hmmm. Pretty sure I am on the right track and GOD hasn't helped yet.

happycamper01

I believe any religion has a right to define marriage based on their beliefs. I do not believe in any religions forcing their beliefs on others. Many Christians are bible thumpers and want to force their beliefs based on their religion on a whole country but the term God is defined differently in different religions. If I am Islamic, Native American, Hindu, or any other religion my views may differ greatly than yours. Christians can't force their beliefs on a whole country because if you do then you are no better than the Islamic extremists who kill for their religion. No, that can't and should not be done. Separation of church and state allows everyone to have or not have a Higher Power whom I choose to call God of their own choosing but that should also protect religions if they choose not to allow gay marriages within their denomination. The solution would be find an open and affirming church such as the one in Sandusky or be married by the justice of the peace.

bnjjad

But, But, But we don't kill people. We just want everyone to follow our ways no matter what!

In all honestly, I don't care what you believe in. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and that is why there was separation of Church and State. But truthfully, organized religion will never be able to work this way because the whole idea behind organized religion is to get everyone to believe the same things to help create that perfect view. It has destroyed bigger and better empires and will continue to destroy in the future, it is an empire that so far has not been toppled. Organized Religion is nothing but a RICO case at this point, ask some of the Catholic parishes how well that profit sharing agreement works out for them (it doesn't!)

anthras

1. Acts of hostility toward people of Biblical faith:

April 2008 – Obama speaks disrespectfully of Christians, saying they “cling to guns or religion” and have an “antipathy to people who aren't like them.” [1]

February 2009 – Obama announces plans to revoke conscience protection for health workers who refuse to participate in medical activities that go against their beliefs, and fully implements the plan in February 2011. [2]

April 2009 – When speaking at Georgetown University, Obama orders that a monogram symbolizing Jesus' name be covered when he is making his speech. [3]

May 2009 – Obama declines to host services for the National Prayer Day (a day established by federal law) at the White House. [4]

April 2009 – In a deliberate act of disrespect, Obama nominated three pro-abortion ambassadors to the Vatican; of course, the pro-life Vatican rejected all three. [5]

October 19, 2010 – Obama begins deliberately omitting the phrase about “the Creator” when quoting the Declaration of Independence – an omission he has made on no less than seven occasions. [6]

November 2010 – Obama misquotes the National Motto, saying it is “E pluribus unum” rather than “In God We Trust” as established by federal law. [7]

January 2011 – After a federal law was passed to transfer a WWI Memorial in the Mojave Desert to private ownership, the U. S. Supreme Court ruled that the cross in the memorial could continue to stand, but the Obama administration refused to allow the land to be transferred as required by law, and refused to allow the cross to be re-erected as ordered by the Court. [8]

February 2011 – Although he filled posts in the State Department, for more than two years Obama did not fill the post of religious freedom ambassador, an official that works against religious persecution across the world; he filled it only after heavy pressure from the public and from Congress. [9]

April 2011 – For the first time in American history, Obama urges passage of a non-discrimination law that does not contain hiring protections for religious groups, forcing religious organizations to hire according to federal mandates without regard to the dictates of their own faith, thus eliminating conscience protection in hiring. [10]

August 2011 – The Obama administration releases its new health care rules that override religious conscience protections for medical workers in the areas of abortion and contraception. [11]

November 2011 – President Obama opposes inclusion of President Franklin Roosevelt’s famous D-Day Prayer in the WWII Memorial. [12]

November 2011 – Unlike previous presidents, Obama studiously avoids any religious references in his Thanksgiving speech. [13]

December 2011 – The Obama administration denigrates other countries' religious beliefs as an obstacle to radical homosexual rights. [14]

January 2012 – The Obama administration argues that the First Amendment provides no protection for churches and synagogues in hiring their pastors and rabbis. [15]

February 2012 – The Obama administration forgives student loans in exchange for public service, but announces it will no longer forgive student loans if the public service is related to religion. [16]

January 2013 – Pastor Louie Giglio is pressured to remove himself from praying at the inauguration after it is discovered he once preached a sermon supporting the Biblical definition of marriage. [17]

February 2013 – The Obama Administration announces that the rights of religious conscience for individuals will not be protected under the Affordable Care Act. [18]

June 2013 – The Obama Department of Justice defunds a Young Marines chapter in Louisiana because their oath mentioned God, and another youth program because it permits a voluntary student-led prayer. [19]

2. Acts of hostility from the Obama-led military toward people of Biblical faith:

January 2010 – Because of "concerns" raised by the Department of Defense, tiny Bible verse references that had appeared for decades on scopes and gunsights were removed. [20]

June 2011 – The Department of Veterans Affairs forbids references to God and Jesus during burial ceremonies at Houston National Cemetery. [21]

August 2011 – The Air Force stops teaching the Just War theory to officers in California because the course is taught by chaplains and is based on a philosophy introduced by St. Augustine in the third century AD – a theory long taught by civilized nations across the world (except now, America). [22]

September 2011 – Air Force Chief of Staff prohibits commanders from notifying airmen of programs and services available to them from chaplains. [23]

September 2011 – The Army issues guidelines for Walter Reed Medical Center stipulating that “No religious items (i.e. Bibles, reading materials and/or facts) are allowed to be given away or used during a visit.” [24]

November 2011 – The Air Force Academy rescinds support for Operation Christmas Child, a program to send holiday gifts to impoverished children across the world, because the program is run by a Christian charity. [25]

November 2011 – Even while restricting and disapprobating Christian religious expressions, the Air Force Academy pays $80,000 to add a Stonehenge-like worship center for pagans, druids, witches and Wiccans at the Air Force Academy. [26]

February 2012 – The U. S. Military Academy at West Point disinvites three star Army general and decorated war hero Lieutenant General William G. (“Jerry”) Boykin (retired) from speaking at an event because he is an outspoken Christian. [27]

February 2012 – The Air Force removes “God” from the patch of Rapid Capabilities Office (the word on the patch was in Latin: Dei). [28]

February 2012 – The Army ordered Catholic chaplains not to read a letter to parishioners that their archbishop asked them to read. [29]

April 2012 – A checklist for Air Force Inns will no longer include ensuring that a Bible is available in rooms for those who want to use them. [30]

May 2012 – The Obama administration opposed legislation to protect the rights of conscience for military chaplains who do not wish to perform same-sex marriages in violation of their strongly-held religious beliefs. [31]

June 2012 – Bibles for the American military have been printed in every conflict since the American Revolution, but the Obama Administration revokes the long-standing U. S. policy of allowing military service emblems to be placed on those military Bibles. [32]

January 2013 – President Obama announced his opposition to a provision in the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act protecting the rights of conscience for military chaplains. [33]

April 2013 – Officials briefing U.S. Army soldiers placed "Evangelical Christianity" and "Catholicism" in a list that also included Al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, and Hamas as examples of "religious extremism." [34]

April 2013 – The U.S. Army directs troops to scratch off and paint over tiny Scripture verse references that for decades had been forged into weapon scopes. [35]

April 2013 - The Air Force creates a "religious tolerance" policy but consults only a militant atheist group to do so -- a group whose leader has described military personnel who are religious as 'spiritual rapists' and 'human monsters' [36] and who also says that soldiers who proselytize are guilty of treason and sedition and should be punished to hold back a "tidal wave of fundamentalists." [37]

May 2013 - The Pentagon announces that "Air Force members are free to express their personal religious beliefs as long as it does not make others uncomfortable. "Proselytizing (inducing someone to convert to one's faith) goes over that line," [38] affirming if a sharing of faith makes someone feel uncomfortable that it could be a court-marital offense [39] -- the military equivalent of a civil felony.

May 2013 - An Air Force officer was actually made to remove a personal Bible from his own desk because it "might" appear that he was condoning the particular religion to which he belonged. [40]

June 2013 - The U. S. Air Force, in consultation with the Pentagon, removed an inspirational painting that for years has been hanging at Mountain Home Air Force Base because its title was "Blessed Are The Peacemakers" -- a phrase from Matthew 5:9 in the Bible. [41]

June 2013 – The Obama administration “strongly objects” to a Defense Authorization amendment to protect the constitutionally-guaranteed religious rights of soldiers and chaplains, claiming that it would have an “adverse effect on good order, discipline, morale, and mission accomplishment.” [42]

July 2013 - When an Air Force sergeant with years of military service questioned a same-sex marriage ceremony performed at the Air Force Academy's chapel, he received a letter of reprimand telling him that if he disagreed, he needed to get out of the military. His current six-year reenlistment was then reduced to only one-year, with the notification that he "be prepared to retire at the end of this year." [43]

July 2013 - An Air Force chaplain who posted a website article on the importance of faith and the origin of the phrase "There are no atheists in foxholes" was officially ordered to remove his post because some were offended by the use of that famous World War II phrase. [44]

3. Acts of hostility toward Biblical values:

January 2009 – Obama lifts restrictions on U.S. government funding for groups that provide abortion services or counseling abroad, forcing taxpayers to fund pro-abortion groups that either promote or perform abortions in other nations. [45]

January 2009 – President Obama’s nominee for deputy secretary of state asserts that American taxpayers are required to pay for abortions and that limits on abortion funding are unconstitutional. [46]

March 2009 – The Obama administration shut out pro-life groups from attending a White House-sponsored health care summit. [47]

March 2009 – Obama orders taxpayer funding of embryonic stem cell research. [48]

March 2009 – Obama gave $50 million for the UNFPA, the UN population agency that promotes abortion and works closely with Chinese population control officials who use forced abortions and involuntary sterilizations. [49]

May 2009 – The White House budget eliminates all funding for abstinence-only education and replaces it with “comprehensive” sexual education, repeatedly proven to increase teen pregnancies and abortions. [50] He continues the deletion in subsequent budgets. [51]

May 2009 – Obama officials assemble a terrorism dictionary calling pro-life advocates violent and charging that they use racism in their “criminal” activities. [52]

July 2009 – The Obama administration illegally extends federal benefits to same-sex partners of Foreign Service and Executive Branch employees, in direction violation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act. [53]

September 16, 2009 – The Obama administration appoints as EEOC Commissioner Chai Feldblum, who asserts that society should “not tolerate” any “private beliefs,” including religious beliefs, if they may negatively affect homosexual “equality.” [54]

July 2010 – The Obama administration uses federal funds in violation of federal law to get Kenya to change its constitution to include abortion. [55]

August 2010 – The Obama administration Cuts funding for 176 abstinence education programs. [56]

September 2010 – The Obama administration tells researchers to ignore a judge’s decision striking down federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. [57]

February 2011 – Obama directs the Justice Department to stop defending the federal Defense of Marriage Act. [58]

March 2011 – The Obama administration refuses to investigate videos showing Planned Parenthood helping alleged sex traffickers get abortions for victimized underage girls. [59]

July 2011 – Obama allows homosexuals to serve openly in the military, reversing a policy originally instituted by George Washington in March 1778. [60]

September 2011 – The Pentagon directs that military chaplains may perform same-sex marriages at military facilities in violation of the federal Defense of Marriage Act. [61]

October 2011 – The Obama administration eliminates federal grants to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops for their extensive programs that aid victims of human trafficking because the Catholic Church is anti-abortion. [62]

July 2012 - The Pentagon, for the first time, allows service members to wear their uniforms while marching in a parade - specifically, a gay pride parade in San Diego. [63]

December 2012 – Despite having campaigned to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, President Obama once again suspends the provisions of the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995 which requires the United States to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and to move the American Embassy there. [64]

April 2013 – The United States Agency for Internal Development (USAID), an official foreign policy agency of the U.S. government, begins a program to train homosexual activists in various countries around the world to overturn traditional marriage and anti-sodomy laws, targeting first those countries with strong Catholic influences, including Ecuador, Honduras, and Guatemala. [65]

June 2013 – The Obama Administration finalizes requirements that under the Obamacare insurance program, employers must make available abortion-causing drugs, regardless of the religious conscience objections of many employers and even despite the directive of several federal courts to protect the religious conscience of employers. [66]

August 2013 - Non-profit charitable hospitals, especially faith-based ones, will face large fines or lose their tax-exempt status if they don't comply with new strangling paperwork requirements related to giving free treatment to poor clients who do not have Obamacare insurance coverage. [67] Ironically, the first hospital in America was founded as a charitable institution in 1751 by Benjamin Franklin, and its logo was the Good Samaritan, with Luke 10:35 inscribed below him: "Take care of him, and I will repay thee," being designed specifically to offer free medical care to the poor. [68] Benjamin Franklin's hospital would likely be fined unless he placed more resources and funds into paperwork rather than helping the poor under the new faith-hostile policy of the Obama administration.

August 2013 - USAID, a federal government agency, shut down a conference in South Korea the night before it was scheduled to take place because some of the presentations were not pro-abortion but instead presented information on abortion complications, including the problems of "preterm births, mental health issues, and maternal mortality" among women giving birth who had previous abortions. [69]

4. Acts of preferentialism for Islam:

May 2009 – While Obama does not host any National Day of Prayer event at the White House, he does host White House Iftar dinners in honor of Ramadan. [70]

April 2010 – Christian leader Franklin Graham is disinvited from the Pentagon’s National Day of Prayer Event because of complaints from the Muslim community. [71]

April 2010 – The Obama administration requires rewriting of government documents and a change in administration vocabulary to remove terms that are deemed offensive to Muslims, including jihad, jihadists, terrorists, radical Islamic, etc. [72]

August 2010 – Obama speaks with great praise of Islam and condescendingly of Christianity. [73]

August 2010 – Obama went to great lengths to speak out on multiple occasions on behalf of building an Islamic mosque at Ground Zero, while at the same time he was silent about a Christian church being denied permission to rebuild at that location. [74]

2010 – While every White House traditionally issues hundreds of official proclamations and statements on numerous occasions, this White House avoids traditional Biblical holidays and events but regularly recognizes major Muslim holidays, as evidenced by its 2010 statements on Ramadan, Eid-ul-Fitr, Hajj, and Eid-ul-Adha. [75]

October 2011 – Obama’s Muslim advisers block Middle Eastern Christians’ access to the White House. [76]

February 2012 – The Obama administration makes effulgent apologies for Korans being burned by the U. S. military, [77] but when Bibles were burned by the military, numerous reasons were offered why it was the right thing to do. [78]

Many of these actions are literally unprecedented – this is the first time they have happened in four centuries of American history. The hostility of President Obama toward Biblical faith and values is without equal from any previous American president.

Pterocarya frax...

If you were to acknowledge (credit) the site you copied and pasted that crap from, it probably would not be considered stealing. However, with no acknowledgement given, that is exactly what you have done. Furthermore, there are many foot notes in there that you apparently don't consider important enough to include. I could disprove many (most) of these, but it really isn't worth the effort for this hogwash.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

While I am not the President's biggest fan, I thank you for using words where I could only facepalm. Any kind of lucid response I can make to contribute here simply comes out as "I don't even what is" when framing my thoughts to display with some other comments.

Pterocarya frax...

If the truth makes you facepalm, I can only imagine what you did when you read comments like these from the story on the veteran getting beat to death:

The General: "Lynch the c**k*ucker"

Mr. D: "Hey, come on! They are just kids! Just out gettin some skittles and tea! I mean. . . Gosh, they are really nice if you know them!"

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

I have steered clear of that thread for the storm it has become. Sometimes avoiding the Mos Eisley cantina is the best option. But wanted to thank you for a logical reply here in this one.

The Big Dog's back

'bout time we had a President who has the courage to say what most of us think.

Anonomous's picture
Anonomous

The solution for churches and businesses is quite simple. If you are a photographer and a gay couple comes to you for photography services, the estimate should be $1,000,000.00 for each 30 minutes the photographer is used. Then if they still want to use them for services they can by just paying for the service. Churches, same solution, if a gay couple comes to a church and want to use it for a wedding. Then the charge is $1,000,000.00 per 30 minutes the church is used, if the couple wants the church for their wedding, then they just pay the bill for services of renting the church for their building. This is a free enterprise business environment. A business is free to charge what ever they want for their services. As customers we either pay the amount billed or find someplace else to have their wedding. So what is the problem??

bnjjad

That would be illegal.

red white and blue

Why does it not surprise me 44 is hear throwing insults at anyone that disagrees with his/hers views had to make sure I politically correct and make sure my spelling was up to 44 standards;) now that's out of the way most gays don't agree with churchs maybe they should start there own.after all they have there own day at c.p and there own parade might as well change gods word to suit them

SKULLNBONES

I am a devout Christian and I don't believe that God and Jesus wanted us to imagine such restrictive governmental rules for other people. This is also a basic conservative principle: keep government out of our personal affairs.

bnjjad

If only everyone believed that last sentence. They complain about Government all up in their business and then they want more laws to keep it going when it goes against something they believe. Again it comes down to: can't have it both ways.

ole45mag

I'm a little (a lot) ignorant of the type of sex that the homosexual man has. I'm pretty sure they insert the penis into the anus like the man and women insert the penis in the vagina. What I wonder is, will waste material from the mans anus end up inside the external urethral orifice of his lover? I feel that if not careful, this could cause an impacted penis. Do they already make or will they make a small douche type or enema type thing to clean out the inside of the external urethral orifice of the penis? Also, schools already explain how men and women have sexual relations, so now will they explain how the homosexual men make love? I really didn't have too hard of time explaining how babies were made in the explaining of the insertion of the penis into the woman's vagina, but I really wonder if that when I explain the sex that a man has with a man if the kid will ask me if they get, well, poo-poo on their penis?
Kind of tricky answers we have to give to the kids these days. But since this action is normal, then parents must teach it properly as should the schools. Will they show the process on the overhead projector like the penis in the vagina drawings showed? Just wondering, perhaps a bit too much. Kind of weird, but even bringing this up almost feels like pornography. Will teaching our kids this action constitute pornography to the children's services department. I guess not, since it is a normal lovemaking process.

Huron_1969

Wish I hadn't read your post.... mental image erase erase erase
Danger Will Robinson, danger!
Run Forrest Run

Most disturbing is the affect this could have down the road on sex-ed in the classroom

bnjjad

I, I, I, have no response. This is something I don't think I ever wanted to read. Good laugh after all though.

red white and blue

If that ever comes up in school my kids will be home school at some point gov.needs to stay out of our personal lives.seeing these kind of stories on here make me realize god is coming even sooner then I think.i'm glad my heart and soul is in the right place

ole45mag

They'll have to teach it someday. In order to teach the kids about social diseases and gender identity, sexual questions will be asked, like "how do they make babies?". We tried to keep it by sticking to the story that it's the stork delivering the babies, but the schools made us out to be liars eventually to the point the kids don't trust us with answers and ask others. So we need to be prepared, thus my question. And as for churches, I know our little church in Monroeville teaches it's ok to be gay and married through their governing body in Cleveland. I don't know how to teach wrong from right anymore. I've been looking at the medical site and they say it's a dangerous act unless you use a condom, which it why our little church's governing body promotes the passing out of condoms. I'm just confused about where they will draw the line between a hate crime or whatever if I teach my kids it's not right to do that to an anus.

OneLocalVoice

I am not trying to be mean or insensitive, but your comment "I don't know how to teach wrong from right anymore." should tell you something about the church you are attending. If you cannot teach right from wrong, then you must not know right from wrong. Since you attend a church, I suggest you pray and then read the Bible and ask God, not man or some church body, to show you what God has to say about the whole issue. If you are really seeking the truth from God, you will find it. Then if you will not accept what "God says in the Bible" about the whole issue, stop going to church because you are not really interested in what God has to say or in living by God's standards...and God would never change His standards. Logic tells me the very fact that He is God means that He is perfect. And since He is perfect He does not need to change, nor would He change, since any change would establish the fact that He didn't get it right the first time, therefore making Him less than perfect and proving Him not to be God. The problem with so many people who claim to believe in God is that they want to fashion God according to their standards and make Him abide by what they want to believe in order to accommodate how they want to live their lives. If there is a God, then He created man and He established the standard of truth...what is right and what is wrong. For those who truly believe in God they just cannot have it both God's way and their way, especially when their way which includes the standard of right and wrong conflicts with God's way. It's simply illogical. I hope this helps you sort it all out so that you will be at least consistent and true to what you say you believe as a church-goer. May your quest for the truth lead you forward.

ole45mag

Ok one local voice...what it boils down to with the original article here, is that the backbone of Christianity is sliding down like a snowball to hell. the fact is, I do know, according to the word of God, how to teach my kids right from wrong. the churches and people that are afraid to speak up are the exact opposite of the people portrayed in Ray Boltz's video, I pledge allegiance to the Lamb. In this video the man preached to his son, then took the death in order to not cave in. We all have to be like Daniel. To go to the headquarter web sites of the Lutheran and the UNITED church of Christ and study their beliefs is maddening. The Lutheran church states that if a preacher is gay and admits it, he has to treat his boyfriend as a man treats his wife, and nurture him till death parts them. The United church of Christ is totally everything not holy. I know people that go to both churches and state that their congregation does not believe what their church headquarters state. YET, they are required to tithe the headquarters and thus fund the ways that are promoted. When you don't believe what your boss says, you have to leave the place, tear down the sign, and denounce the head congregation. As for the people above that quote the do not judge verse, we are required to expose the deeds of darkness. But this is now becoming a hate crime. It's becoming a political opinion which makes churches loose their tax free status. However, where I am guilty here is in this...there are things that even the pagans do not speak of it's so bad. So trust me...we agree. But I am so tired of only half of the story being told. The lubby dubby stuff where everyone is so nice. Everyone knows a lot of the details about normal man and women sex. It's even in the book of Solomon. the only time man on man sex is mentioned in the bible, it ain't good. To leave the natural ways of man to woman sexual relations and go to the man to man is condemned in the bible, period, along with a lot of things. But we are now a nation of sissy's where some claim Jesus was gay. Won't be long until they say Patton, and Douglas Macarthur were gay.

OneLocalVoice

Let me begin by saying that I believe in God...the God who reveals Himself in the Bible (and not the Koran or any other so-called holy book) and who sent His Son Jesus to show us the Father and to die for our sins. My main goal was to say that if the church you are attending no longer stands for what God's Word says...namely that homosexuality is sinful, then it's time to move on to a church that does. God has given us His standard of what is truth and what is right and wrong and for any so-called church to establish standards that differ from God's nullifies itself as being the church of Jesus Christ. And though I take a stand against sin of which homosexuality is but one, I do not hate the sinner. The fact that I share with sinners the truth of God's Word and His offer of forgiveness is evidence that I love them even as Christ loves them. If Jesus stood among us today in person He would say to all of us who would seek to follow Him and to walk in truth, "Go and sin no more." I am a sinner that was saved by God's grace, born of God's Holy Spirit, given a new heart with new desires to serve God in obedience to His Word, and yet still in need daily of His forgiveness. Praise God!

coasterfan

RW&B: I would hope that you don't vote Republican, then, since the party has a huge problem staying out of the personal lives of anyone who isn't old/white/male. From Todd Akin to vaginal probes, it's an almost weekly occurrence where some ultra-conservative proposes something stunningly intrusive on women or stunningly discriminatory towards gays.

I'm part of neither group, but would never vote Republican simply because they constantly try to force their view of morality and/or religion on others.

OneLocalVoice

What a thoughtless comment. Conservatives, moderates, liberals, and every other so-called group out there is trying to force their views and opinions on others? Everybody has a philosophy about life and an agenda to promote whether they admit it or not.

The Big Dog's back

The difference is Repubs want to legislate their beliefs on us.

red white and blue

Ole u should direct Your
? To 44 they have all the anwsers for how why and where.as for me I can think of a million ot her things we should be teaching our kids as for your church u can bet I won't be going to services in monroeville anytime soon I don't know why with all that gods word that can teach and help us why you would spend anytime talking about anyone's Anus

2cents's picture
2cents

If a bar can refuse to serve you, then a church can refuse to serve you. Just legal fluff, they need to cover their arse : )

John Harville

Then I guess Christ's ancestors - the kings - David and Solomon wouldn't be allowed in Christian churches? Of course not, silly boy, they are Jews.
I notice none of the out-of-context quotes were in the Gospels where Jesus actually spoke but were from that great reasons-to-exclude writer Paul.

themomx6

Ummmm.......did you miss this verse?

In Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus is speaking: "He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?"

John Harville

themomx6.... didn't miss anything. But like most, you choose to pull out of context. Jesus ACTUALLY was preaching about divorce and changing Mosaic Law. Interestingly Mormons also use the passage you cited to defend their position that marriage continues into Heaven (or their own personal planet) after earthly death - totally ignoring Jesus' admonition to the apostles who ask about a woman who marries in turn each of her husband's six brothers after each one's death. they want to know who will be her husband in Heaven. Jesus tells them we will not be known as husband and wife, parent and child, etc.

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

I don't think Jesus specifically mentioned pedophilia, so according to your "logical" argument, you must think its OK to be a pedophile.

John Harville

Think again Think Again.... then check your Bible in Matthew 18...

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he was drowned in the depth of the sea.”

I think pedophilia is in the ranks of "to sin".

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

Correct me if I’m wrong. You appear to be saying the “little one” is sinning because an adult pedophile forced their intentions.

Sorry, I don’t believe God would fault the child.

arnmcrmn

Separation of church and state. Works in all ways....not just in schools..etc.
Church's shouldn't change the way they teach and preach because they fear a lawsuit. That is just asinine.

coasterfan

I agree. Public schools don't want religion driving their curriculum, and by the same token, discussions on evolution, science and sex are not encouraged during church services.

red white and blue

Coasterfan I don't vote republican or demacrat we are on the same side on yhat issue

sandtown born a...

RELIGION nothing more than a CULT. All you faithful followers keep putting your hard earned wages into the basket we need a nicer church or the pastor a new Cadillac. Go ahead you little sheep listen up to the word of some made up GOD. I am lost for words as to most of the ridiculous comments on this story. UNIMFORMED or IMPROPERLY INFORMED either way your REDICULOUS

Huron_1969

Flipped your rhetoric 180 degrees ....

Anti Religion is nothing more than an Extreme Alter CULT. All you faithful followers of "man rules the universe" keep putting your hard earned wages into the basket we need a nicer government or the polician a new Cadillac. Go ahead you little sheep listen up to the word of some made up human leader. I am never at a lost for words and relish in adding to the ridiculous comments on this story. I am UNIMFORMED or IMPROPERLY INFORMED about religion and am helping prove atheism is REDICULOUS

sandtown born a...

SHEEP follow I choose to be a leader The god fearing priests who molest little boys in so called gods temples sickening to say the least. I was raised in a religious family went to church regurlarly the racism and hate shown by the majority of these god fearing people is a portion of the reason I choose not to buy into the organized religion. I have my beliefs and that's for me to sort out with whomever my power to be may be. GOD HAS A MASTER PLAN FOR US that's just plain stupidity I controll my own future not some made up god.

arnmcrmn

Well who made you God?

sandtown born a...

GOD , I never claimed to be a god did I???? Try a reading comp class maybe it will help . I'm a god according to my wife lmao. seriously a god was a term the Indians used to explain thunder/nature. You thumpers go ahead throw some more godly comments my way very Christian of you.

arnmcrmn

Wow, sounds like you have some pent up frustration and anger issues to get on here and sling mud and name call. BTW, nobody cares what you say.

sandtown born a...

Can just one of you bible thumpers show me the scripture that says priests can have their way with little boys with no recourse. I didn't think so. The way I see it the bible is left to interpretation as different religions interperet it differently. To say its written in a book as to who you can love/ marry is stupidity at its greatest.

Bherrle

It does not say that anywhere in the bible. No recourse? I thought they got thrown in jail, and labeled a sex offender for the rest of thier life?

As far as the consequences suffered by ones church, I agree, that varies widely. It shouldn't, but it does.

I live here too's picture
I live here too

Tax the Churches! If they want to preach politics, then they can pay the entry fee like everyone else.

Pterocarya frax...

CAN WE GET AN AMEN??? Amen Brother!

Stop It

AMEN!!!

The Big Dog's back

AMEN!

red white and blue

amen........

John Harville

Religion is 'mans law'. And just look at the ways man and woman butcher it, prune it, embellish it, kill for it to beat people down.

Faith, is a very personal and generally unshakeable inner knowledge of a relationship outside oneself. For those who have it, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, even religion is not enough and no explanation will fit. Godspeed y'all!

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

Your incorrect interpretation of Matthew 18:6 above, succinctly demonstrates how some people can twist scripture to their benefit. :)

I concur wholeheartedly with your second paragraph, as long as you are inferring a relationship with Christ.

John Harville

I didn't misinterpret. Leading a 'little one' to sin can take many forms. A 'little one' who is reared to hate people of color or people with beliefs other than Jesus-based faith, or people with a different sexual orientation is being led to the sin of hatred. Such 'leading' may manifest itself later as murderous or injurious actions toward one of those hated groups. Victims of pedophilia sometimes engage in similar behaviors when older. Beaten children often beat children.
So yes, that "little one" may someday commit a sin directly related to the original act. AND, not all people 'abused' by the priests disliked it. Even some who brought the large lawsuit against the Diocese of Toledo stated in depositions they actually tempted the priests... but the boys were underage and therefore the priest was a pedophile.
I will not ponder how God 'judges' since I prefer to let God be God.

As to your effort to impose religion on me by saying you can agree with my 'faith statement' only if it is based in Jesus just points out one more reason I eschew Religion. After all, Jesus' story is in the Qu'ran. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the assurance of things not seen." That's somewhere in Hebrews.
By the way, a grammar lesson. YOU can 'infer' from what you think I 'imply'. From the things you say, I never would 'infer' a relationship with Jesus.