Word on the Street: Will voters repeal SB5 or let it stand?

Ohio accepted enough petitions last week to put Senate Bill 5 on the November ballot. We asked several area residents if they thought voters would repeal the bill or let it stand.
Jasmine Pace
Jul 26, 2011

Ohio accepted enough petitions last week to put Senate Bill 5 on the November ballot. We asked several area residents if they thought voters would repeal the bill or let it stand.

Give us your two cents below.

Comments

man4451

 

I don't think them people know, SB5, SB-5, Senate Bill 5, WILL raise TAXES. Or teachers earn about $100.oo per hour. Its a one sided storey.

donutshopguy

 American democracy at work. Wether you are for or against SB5 you as a citizen of the state of Ohio have the ability to decide how your state will be run.

Evaluate all the information, make a decision and vote. 

It's a right. Don't take it for granted.

 

Pragmatic

 

I think there is a great deal of ignorance and misguided information being passed around to people.  The other day, I was discussing this with an acquaintance of mine. I told him that I am not an advocate of the unions since I have studied the history of unions – and it’s affects in the past 20 years of our Country’s economy.  He told me that if I am “anti-union” then I must be “anti-teachers, anti-policeman, anti-firemen, etc…”.  Unfortunately, I am finding this ignorance with many people.

 

Let’s be straight here:  Just because someone is not pro-union – doesn’t make them “anti-“ anything. 

 

I was one of the only people in my neighborhood pounding on doors some years back trying to get levy after levy passed in the school district.  I have also greatly supported the police and fire over the years and continue to do so…mainly by being a good citizen.  I am a veteran and believe in the American way. But, that doesn’t mean the unions are the way to our future. I am surprised that so many people think this is our future. 

 

But, since I am not a native of this area – I am finding that the manufacturing industry has left its chaotic wake in people’s minds.  This would be my first clue…that unions are destructive…this isn’t your grandpa’s manufacturing industry anymore.  The industry is gone. Not because we don’t need those manufactured items any longer.  We do.  But, companies are only in business for one reason, to make money. That’s reasonable.  Investors in the company need to receive their dividends or they will pull out.  So, a smart company will leave a geographical area if they are being depressed on the bottom line…to another place that will generate pay for employees, pay for overhead, and dividends to shareholders if they have investors.

 

People in the video are under the impression that rights are being taken away from people (teachers, fire, police). First, I don’t think that one occupation is better than any other. We all have a role to play in this Country:  whether you are sweeping floors, working in an emergency room, being a cashier, a secretary at a non-profit organization, or a CEO of a Fortune 500 company – we are all relevant. 

 

Second: Let’s try and look through a different lens for just one moment. Could it be – that rights are being given to you without a union/collective bargaining? I have heard union worker after union worker complain that bad employees make the same money as they do…yet, that union worker indicates they work harder, come to work on time, are more efficient, don’t complain, add to the good morale of the company, etc.  It would seem like more intelligent thought would be – to conclude that you may be able to negotiate for more money if you are adding more value.  This DOES happen in non-union environments.  Just because it doesn’t happen everywhere doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.  I’ve given raises before based on adding value to my team.  Attitude is a part of my evaluation system – and it counts for a great deal.  Emotions pay a huge role in the workplace. If my team members have positive emotions, we are substantially more effective overall.  This adds to the bottom line of the organization – therefore, adding to their paycheck.   

 

As leaders, we are held hostage by the unions to pay our exceptional team members the money they deserve.  Leaders are also held hostage to decrease pay – and even to terminate employees that even other union members complain about.  This all seems so very simple.  But, fanatical pro-union people are so blinded by the, “power in numbers” that they have difficulty seeing any other perspective.  Not everyone wants the same thing. 

 

You see, we are in a time in human existence that people are intelligent enough to negotiate their own pay and benefits.  I would be terribly insulted if someone negotiated my pay/benefits.  Why do I have to accept what they want – or even what the majority wants?  It isn’t logical.  If I am covered by health benefits from my spouse – and would rather have tuition benefits, but the majority of the workers want health benefits…how does this benefit me?  Okay, I’m getting “something” – but, I don’t need that “something”.  So, I’m paying union dues to get something I don’t need or want.  How is this logical?

 

I have worked in both union and non-union environments.  It greatly irritated me that I had to accept the same benefits as those who were in a different era of their life.  My benefits in the military were excellent when I served.  But, everybody’s benefits were exactly the same (with the exception of some officer/enlisted benefits).  Yet, some people deserved much less because they did less.  There wasn’t a system in place for “pay for performance”.  You could work until your back hurt and get paid the same as the person who sat and watched you all day. 

 

I have worked in one union environment since I have been in the corporate sector.  I thought the union way of life was quite militant in nature.  I have also worked in some non-union environments; I have been able to negotiate the benefits I need.  Most employees do this in the workforce – they don’t count on one person speaking for them.  A construction worker, marketing director, or a secretary may want every Friday off to care for an elderly parent and negotiate to work longer hours during the week; a Generation Y employee may ask for tuition reimbursement over healthcare due to being covered elsewhere and a single parent may ask for flexible scheduling.  There are so many ways to cater to employees today that garner their support, reduce turnover significantly, all the while making companies substantially more successful.    

 

One size does not fit all.  People are making assumptions that they need a union to ensure they are paid, are treated fairly, and are safe at work.  All of these issues are now laws mandated by the government.  But, if truth be told, many non-union companies have better pay and benefits than a lot of the union organizations.  A friend of mine left the police department in Chicago to work for a private security force for a Fortune 500 Company doing very similar work and his pay and benefits dramatically increased – he isn’t union.  He negotiated what was necessary for him and his family.

 

We have moved beyond the Knights of Labor era.  We are a more educated and informed people.  Our government has laws to protect safety, equal opportunity, wage and labor, and privacy.  But, it isn’t only the unions that have lobbied for these laws.  The private sector has spent a great deal of money on this as well. 

 

If people can gain some confidence within – and give negotiating for themselves a chance, they may be surprised at the outcome.  Don’t count yourself short – the unions have already done that to many of their members already.

 

I agree with Donutshopguy – whether you agree or disagree with my perspective, we must exercise our muscle and vote.  When it’s all said and done – no matter how I feel about this issue…my fellow Americans have spoken. 

 

SimpleEnough

Pragmatic, Well put. but i do have a problem with many of my fellow Americans voting, they never study the subject on their own, they go off slanted news or some other so called expert. I've been reading SB5 and so far i don't see a problem with it, I just wish they would cut down all the wording.

 

Perkins2060

Either way cuts will be made.  If SB5 is repealed massive layoffs will happen.  Either way the taxpayers win. 

Hmm

man4451 - you hurt your cause by making such a rediculous statement about teachers wages.  Seriously.  Also, no one wants to say out loud that they support SB5 or they will be accused of disliking teachers/police/firefighters.  I wouldn't put much stock in a man-on-the-street poll.

6079 Smith W

One of the more interesting comments I read this weekend:

"If a child with a tablet computer, assisted by a talented teacher, can access the knowledge base of the entire world, why do we even need a superintendent class, or more importantly, the useless and expensive school district?"

- Bruno Brehend, Heartland Institute

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903554904576458423506023868.html

The major issue is that we're teaching our children in the 21st Century using expensive 19th Century teaching techiques and methods.

The public sector bureaucracy needs to become more productive and that by necessity means less management overhead.

The passing of SB5, by giving local govts more say in wages and benefits is a step in the right direction.

-----------------------------------------------------------

@ Perkins2060:

Your assessment is 100% spot on.

Property and income taxes cannot be raised high enough to offset pension obligations - sumpthin's gotta give.

 

 

 

Common Sense

The problem I have with "Pay for performance" is the determination of how an award is given, especially in the area of education.  If I wanted to play the game, I would ask the principal to allow me to select my students from the class that would be coming up in the next year.  In preparation for this, I would have taken many of my "planning periods" to evaluate the students in their school environment, look at their birthdates and previous scores, and choose only those who fit the best criteria.  Voile! I get the bonus for student performance while my peers struggle with those who have less favorable environments, summer birthdays, and the like.  And yes, I do know someone who does just this.

Re:  man 4451.....

The orifice for speaking is located closer to the sky than the one you are currently using.  Once again someone who knows nothing about a teacher, but makes ridiculous comments just to see your comment in print. What a pity!

Hmm

Common Sense - test scores will likely be just one factor.  Why can't teachers be evaluated just like other professions?

Itsntallaboutu

Looking at these comments~it looks like all of the pro-union people must be at WORK!   (my day off~I work weekends~'tay~)    Pro- union people will be here when they are finished with W-O-R-K.   Too many haters here~every subject.

Hmm

itsnotallaboutu - well you proved my point:  If you are not opposed to SB5 you are a hater.  All these comments are respectful, except man4451's comment about teacher wages.  A person can be in favor of SB5 but still have respect for teachers/police/firefighters, but people will not be open about their opinions, lest they are accused of being a "hater".

Put America 1st

How can you not be nothing but a "hater" Hmm?  You are in support of cutting a fellow working middle class american at the knees from making a living wage to raise their family.  A teacher who is a child first role-model, who is incharge of our future and trust of our children.  A firefighter or a police officer who put their lives on the line everytime they leave their home and love ones.  These public employees dont make extravagant salaries compare to Kasich's staff.

 

The pay extends to 10 positions in Kasich's office, including his chief of staff, Beth Hansen, and Lt. Gov. Mary Taylor's chief of staff, Laura Johnson, slated to make $170,000 and $120,000 a year, respectively. Other top earners include special assistant to the governor Jai Chabria ($145,000), chief legal counsel Mike Grodhaus ($120,000), communications director Scott Milburn ($120,000), policy director Wayne Struble ($120,000), deputy policy director Ben Kanzeg ($115,000) and legislative liaison Matt Carle ($100,000).

 

For someone that claims he wants to cut cost and balance the budget he is running the governership like he did at Lehman Brothers.

Pete

I find it funny when Tax Consumers complain about the Gov's office payroll. Here is a slice from the OEA Payroll:

The OEA pays 102 employees six-figure salaries, including 34 who made more than $120,000 for the fiscal year that ended in August.

The highest paid employee is Executive Director Dennis Reardon, who was paid $176,317, according to the union's annual report on file with the U.S. Department of Labor.

OEA President Patricia Frost-Brooks was paid $172,574, and the union's vice president and treasurer each were paid about $151,400.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/con...

That was back in '08

Wonder what it is now?

 

donutshopguy

 Put America 1st,

Please enlighten us on this "living wage" concept.  Is this an entitlement? Is this a right guaranteed by the Constitution? Is everyone entitled to a specific amount no matter of their education, work ethic or ability? Who decides this amount of this "living wage"? Who pays for this "living wage" ? Is it the private sector or government?

Let's be specific. Maybe I getting shafted. I could be working to hard for my wages and benefits.

Put America 1st

Donutshopguy use common sense and dont try to play the "word" game.  I assume you have a bit of intelligence so google "living wage" and you will get the broad meaning. 

donutshopguy

 Put America 1st,

I didn't use the word, you did.  Just trying to get some clarification. How can we have a meaningful discussion without being specific on this often used phrase?

Pete

SB5 would have been a MUCH simpler bill if it would have just said:

"No City, County, Township, School, Taxing District, or State Agency may collect dues from employees and forward said funds to a union or other labor organization"

Would have accomplished the same thing without all the pages

Put America 1st

So Pete is SB5 about union busting as you mention or saving the state money?  We know where you stand with teachers, police officers, firefighters and other state public workers.

Pete

Would have accomplished both in one fell swoop and saved a lot of paper in the process

Put America 1st

If you DO NOT know what a "living wage"...You should get out of this discussion.  Better yet call a teacher and maybe they can educate you on Economics 101

donutshopguy

 Put America 1st,

Is your interpretation of a "living wage" different from mine? Should I get out of the discussion because our interpretation differ? Maybe they don't but we will never know because you are unwilling to discuss.

Put America 1st

Once again I see VOTERS on this board make outlandish statements, uninformed voters that follow a certain ideology or just against american workers.

 

SB5  law sharply curtails collective bargaining power of teachers and other public union workers, bans strikes and eliminates binding arbitration.  Therefore, Gov. Kasich is trying to cut cost in education on the backs of teacher's salary.  Gov. Kasich first operating budget released in March suggested putting the squeeze on public school education, proposing to cut funding to local school districts by 11.9 percent next fiscal year and another 4.9 percent the year after.  Another fact is states WITHOUT collective bargaining rights have LARGER Debt than Ohio.  Gov. Kasich has given his staff raises while threathening to cut middle class worker wages.  But you got individuals like Man4451, 6079 Smith, Hmmm and other support this approach.  The comment was rasie about Teachers pay under SB5 and the truth of the matter, there is 5 criteria that would go into a teacher's pay.  One of those is "Teacher evaluation" where questionaries and survey from Parents (where education SHOULD start) is a factor.  Teacher are responsibile for discplining children in their classroom but now those kids' can have their revenge thru surveys/questionaries.

Also Gov. Kasich has also eliminate rules that required payment of prevailing wages on public contracts.  These two example of assualts on the working class DO NOT save the state any money however, it shows Gov. Kasich true agenda - bust unions and privatize Ohio at all costs.  I always said it is easier for a company to cut payroll instead of doing the hard work and looking deeper at their books. 

 

The question I have for Gov. Kasich and his right wing supporters is...Where is the JOBS?!?!

 

Perkins2060

Typical Union/Democrat response.  I've learned to ignore these ignorant types.  Either way we win.

Put America 1st

Actually you ignore the truth at the cost of your fellow american. 

Hmm

Maybe I simply think public employees should pay a larger share of their insurance premiums, and that their raises should be based on merit.  How would that make me a hater?  Who said anything about taking away their living wage?

althenaruby

I dont understand how we are taking  wages away from them.  We arent taking wages from them we are just restructuring HOW you get your raise.  And you still get collective bargaining on your wages just not benefits...which guess what... the average person doesnt.

Put America 1st

Althenaruby the SB5 affects pension, health care and wages for future contracts.   It takes away americans right to negotiate fair, liveable compensation.

 

 

Kimo
  Re: Typical Union/Democrat response.  I've learned to ignore these ignorant types.  Either way we win.   When anyone loses a job, we are all affected, no one is immune.   When anyone sees a drop in their disposable income, we are all affected, no one is immune.   When your neighbor loses his/her job, be it city, State, county, village or township, the local economy suffers a loss of disposable income and tax revenue. He/she is forced to cut back on all purchases that are not vital to survival. The pension system loses the income and in some cases it forces an early retirement. We all should be aware that those pension systems are strained.   If you stand back, forget about jealousy, greed, and all the other emotions that fuel this issue, anyone with a minimum of intelligence can see that as you multiply the number of people in this situation it eventually trickles down and forces more cutbacks in all areas and that affects everyone one of us.

 

Pete

Wait though Kimo, I will grant you that there are people who are going to lose jobs because of cutbacks in government spending.

But why is it better to confiscate money from the taxpayers and myself, pass it through the system, then give it to someone else to spend?

If I can save "X%" of my pay through lower taxes, I will either spend that money or invest it. Either way it is being spent. I just cut out the middle tax consumer and the overhead the government expends to confiscate my money

 

goofus

Gee put america last er first, what about wisconsin leading the country in private sector job growth and over in Indiana who governor Daniels suspended collective bargaining earlier is running such a surplus, he gave bonuses to state workers. Do yourself a favor read other things other than the DNC fake talking points.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/07/republican-governors-proving-that-conservative-economic-principles-work/

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/07/wi-announces-largest-gain-since-2003-in-private-sector-jobs/

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