U.S. rethinks giving excess military gear to police

Attorney General is "deeply concerned that the deployment of military equipment and vehicles sends a conflicting message"
Associated Press
Aug 17, 2014

 

After a decade of sending military equipment to civilian police departments across the country, federal officials are reconsidering the idea in light of the violence in Ferguson, Missouri.

The public has absorbed images of heavily armed police, snipers trained on protesters and tear gas plumes. Against that backdrop, Attorney General Eric Holder said that when police and citizens need to restore calm, "I am deeply concerned that the deployment of military equipment and vehicles sends a conflicting message."

Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo., said police responses like that in Ferguson have "become the problem instead of the solution." Rep. Hank Johnson, D-Ga., said he will introduce legislation to reverse police militarization.

Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said his committee will review the program to determine if the Defense Department's surplus equipment is being used as intended.

One night after the violence that accompanied the presence of military-style equipment in Ferguson, tensions eased when a police captain, unprotected and shaking hands, walked through a crowd in a gesture of reconciliation. The contrast added to perception that the tanks and tear gas had done more harm than good.

As the country concludes its longest wartime period, the military has turned over thousands of surplus weapons and armored trucks to local police who often trained alongside the military.

A report by the American Civil Liberties Union in June said police agencies had become "excessively militarized," with officers using training and equipment designed for the battlefield on city streets. The report found the amount of goods transferred through the military surplus program rose from $1 million in 1990 to nearly $450 million in 2013.

"Every police force of any size in this country has access to those kinds of weapons now," said David Harris, a police expert at the University of Pittsburgh law school. "It makes it more likely to be used (and) is an escalation all by itself."

In Louisiana, masked police in full body armor carrying AR-15 assault rifles raided a nightclub without a warrant, looking not for terrorists but underage drinkers and fire-code violations. Officers in California train using the same counterinsurgency tactics as those used in Afghanistan.

"They're not coming in like we're innocent until proven guilty," said Quinn Eaker. SWAT teams last August raided his organic farm and community, the Garden of Eden, in Arlington, Texas. "They're coming in like: 'We're gonna kill you if you move a finger.'"

Police found no drugs or weapons and filed no charges after their search, which authorities said followed standard procedure.

In 1990, Congress authorized the Pentagon to give surplus equipment to police to help fight drugs, which then gave way to the fight against terrorism. Though violent crime nationwide is at its lowest level in generations and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have largely concluded, the military transfers have increased.

Police say the equipment, which includes free body armor, night vision goggles and scopes, keeps officers safe and prepares them for the worst case.

"A lot evolved from the military, no question," said Los Angeles County Sheriff's Chief Bill McSweeney, who heads the detective division. "Is it smart for them to use that stuff and perhaps look like soldiers from Iraq going into a place? Is that smart or over the top? I'd say generally that's smart. Now, if you use that every time a guy is writing bad checks, that's getting rather extreme."

The U.S. has provided 610 mine-resistant armored trucks, known as MRAPs, across the country, nearly all since August 2013, including at least nine in Los Angeles County, according to Michelle McCaskill, a spokeswoman for the Defense Logistics Agency.

In rural western Maine, the Oxford County Sheriff's Office, which had not reported a murder in more than 20 years, asked for an MRAP. Cpl. George Cayer, wrote in his request that Maine's western foothills face a "previously unimaginable threat from terrorist activities."

In Orange County, Florida, masked officers in tactical gear helped state inspectors raid barber shops in 2010 to find people cutting hair without a license. Using a mini battering ram and pry bar at times, police arrested dozens of people. Officials said they found illegal items such as drugs and a weapon.

McSweeney said it's hard to argue that police shouldn't use the best equipment available.

"It's tempting to say, 'Shouldn't we wear these things? Shouldn't we approach this as if we could get shot?'" he said. "How do you say no to that question?"

Nick Gragnani, executive director of the St. Louis Area Regional Response System, said such supplies have proved essential in hurricane relief efforts and other disaster responses.

"The shame of it will be ... if somebody does a brushstroke and takes out all the funding and then we can no longer be prepared for that big incident," he said.

The LAPD's deputy chief, Michael Downing, who heads the department's counterterrorism and special operations bureau, said officers are dealing with "an adversary who is more sophisticated, more tactically trained."

Downing emphasized that though police might train with soldiers, they're not warriors with a mission to kill but public servants with no "enemies."

"In police work there are times we have to become soldiers and control through force and fear," Downing said. "But we have to come back to being a public servant as quick as we can to establish that normality and that ethical stature with communities, because they're the ones who give us the authority to do our police work."

Comments

holysee

looking at YOU huron police chief!

WeThePeople1965

Not only that but Norwalk.

knowitall

How would PIB handle a Humvee?

knowitall

Give it to ISIS.

grumpy

Another demonstration of what BIG gov't does. Are you happy with expanding gov't and what they do? If so keep voting for those who want to expand BIG gov't. This is what you can expect.

KnuckleDragger

Amen, finally something I agree with Eric Holder on.

abigbear

not to fast wait and see what the other hand is doing as they are always transparent and TRUTHFUL in EVERYTHING..

Julian

Just to provide an update on this un-updated article, The Missouri State Highway Patrol has now been using tear gas, smoke, riot gear, and armored vehicles the night the curfew was implemented. Protestors were also throwing rocks at police, and one officer was injured. One person has also been shot and critically wounded, not expected to live, and a round was fired into a passing police vehicle.

If this isn't enough to justify the use of military equipment, I don't know what is. We are not talking about tanks, we are talking about armored vehicles that would protect against rocks and gunfire, should an emergency situation present itself. I hope that most people are not naïve enough to believe that something like this could never happen in their community. When it happens, the people involved will be grateful if any of this equipment assists them in their protection and saving their life, or the lives of their family members and friends.

Some people choose to complain, and don't care, unless it happens to them.

knowitall

Good points. I am not sure how it gets distributed. State police maybe is ok in my opinion. As long as they get training. Local police is another story. Norwalk does not need riot vehicles. If it gets to that, call in the national guard or state police.
Remember Kent State and the national guard. They were even trained....I assume.

just observing

I have much more confidence in the Norwalk Police who knows and are members of the local community than the highway patrol who should be restricted to traffic enforcement and backing up the local police if called upon.
In Missouri the state turned over the problem to the highway patrol and a captain who happens to be black and has had the same results as the local and county police, the highway patrol refused to protect stores from looting when requested to do so by the owners. At Kent State that was the problem untrained national guardsmens thrown into a no win situation, even today the guard does not have the same level of civil training that specified police units do, they would be a good back up logistic support for the local authorities. they are military and are trained in that manner.

Señor Clown

Just an update to your uninformed opinion - there were no issues with violent protestors or crowd control until the county police showed up in force, dressed like special ops soldiers on deployment in Afghanistan, pointing battle rifles and automatic weapons at an unarmed crowd, kettling in protestors and ordering them to disperse while giving them nowhere to escape to, and then firing upon the panicked crowd and press with rubber bullets, LRADs, smoke grenades, and tear gas.

They also gassed unarmed TV news crews 'for their own safety' just for filming the event. News journalists and local elected officials were illegally detained by police without being arrested. The officers involved were so excited to get to dress up in their army costumes and intimidate a bunch of civilians with their DOD 1033 armored trucks and Homeland Security grant anti-terrorism combat loadouts that nobody ever stopped to follow accepted protocol for de-escalation of civil unrest: Meeting with protesters as peers, listening to what they have to say, and having a peaceful dialogue. You know, much like happened when the MSHP and Capt. Johnson initially relieved the county police.

Surprise, surprise - Simply not antagonizing protesters actually works. Getting a percent of a crowd of ten thousand riled up enough to throw rocks, after showing up with a military presence and tear gassing a crowd, is not justification to preemptively show up with a military presence. If something like this ever happens in your community, the War On Drugs military surplus equipment and DHS Anti-Terrorism tactical weapons and training are not going to be used to protect the lives of your family members and friends - they will be used as tools of intimidation in a hostile law enforcement vs. frightened civilian confrontation.

just observing

No police would equal no animal like mob behavior that we have witnessed in Missouri? The rioting started the first night before the police mobilized. The business many of them minority owned has been looted by a portion of the mob, many of them taking advantage of the situation to do what criminals do, break the law. After a few nights Capt. Johnson and the State Highway Patrol are now using the same tactics but refuse to protect property owners. The surplus military equipment being used is defensive in natural, not offensive. What a rose colored world you must live in.

The Big Dog's back

Certainly not yours thank God.

Julian

There would have been a riot no matter what, simple as that. And if journalists, politicians, and peaceful protestors want to stand shoulder to shoulder with rioters that are looting and shooting guns into crowds in a riot zone, then plan on being contacted by the police. They should have stayed home, nobody told them to be there.
I also don't think frightened civilians shoot guns at innocent people, those people are called murderers.

By they way, I think you have been playing Call of Duty way too much.

Presto

Re:
"Rep. Hank Johnson, D-Ga., said he will introduce legislation to reverse police militarization."

Reverse (police) militarization?

Militarization is impossible to reverse.

Macho war mongering dudes with big guns thinking they're big sh*t (ie "militarization") never stops lol.

This can't be "reversed" obviously - look back thru time at any highly militarized society. No reversing just bigger guns and more macho men until someone "wins" (ie everyone else is dead).

Sounds a bit "overblown" i know i know

It's where we're at. Norwalk Police is ready to roll (over anyone/everyone/thing) with their big macho men gun "transporter" too wow lol

Professor Playdoh's picture
Professor Playdoh

And here we just sell it to the public....

knowitall

Lol. I got to get me one of those big azzed vehicles. I'll get me a concealed carry license and keep,that big azzed vehicle under my coat.

ram03

Perhaps law abiding citizens should also be given access to acquire some of this equipment.

Presto

P.S.

RE:

(Eric Holder) "I am deeply concerned that the deployment of military equipment and vehicles sends a conflicting message."

Sends a Conflicting Message?????

No, the message is loud and clear.

It's a military police situation. Nothing more and nothing less. A mild one but you've got military personel firing on their own citizens using military equipment. Yep that's a military police situation.

The sad part is normal regular citizens can't ever do anything about these situations. They couldn't do anything about what was going on in Germany, Russia,China,N Korea, Syria, Iraq, Gaza, etc etc etc (for infinity)

Theres just nothing unarmed (or poorly armed/organized) people can do in the face of well armed & organized people. Period end of story.

Our local police departments are actively SEEKING and hiring ex-military personel as well. They've boasted about this with the spin of "helping them get good jobs after their military service". (which would be awesome if this were the real reason they've been hired in droves).

Hate to send a conflicting message.....?

Lets help Eric out a bit here-

"The Employment of military personnel, along with the purchase (for "Free"!) and deployment of military equipment and vehicles sends a very CLEAR message"....

Much better :-)

knowitall

It is clear to me too.

The Big Dog's back

Well, there is something you can do. VOTE! Recent history shows us that Repubs like war. And I know some right wingnuts will bring up how some Dems voted for the Iraq war. SOME! All the Repubs voted for it except one. This militarization of local police began with, and I know right wingnuts don't want to hear this, bush. To stop this insanity you need both Houses of Congress to legislatively change it. Ain't gonna happen as long as Repubs are in control.

Roger15

Dog,

Familiar with Hegelian Dialectic?

The Big Dog's back

Oh gee, another alex jones follower. Do you follow glen beck too?

KnuckleDragger

This from a Rachel Madcow follower.

The Big Dog's back

Seriously knuckle? Hegelian dialectic?

knowitall

Is that a derogatory term? Could be a disease. Maybe a relative of Kathryn Haegel? Dia means two so maybe it is two hegelians. Maybe they are related to the Romulans.

Roger15

Allow me...

http://www.amerikanexpose.com/he...

No real diff. Repubs/Dems

knowitall

Thank you Roger. I agree with ya after reading the definition. It does sound like something from Star Trek though. Lol

jazzb0

Its just a fancy word for Fox News.

KnuckleDragger

I see your IQ hasn't increased recently.

jazzb0

The Hegelian dialectic sounds like the dynamics behind Fox News.

Your IQ cant be very high , after all , your name is KnuckleDragger.

KnuckleDragger

Hey both are nutcases in my book.

OMG.LOL.WT_

Very little of that on these pages.

holysee

Are you a teabagging teabagger of the steeped bagged tea variety?

KnuckleDragger

Check your forehead, seems you are the one being teabagged. Seriously, do you ever say anything intelligent?

just observing

piddle the political leadership in Missouri at the state, county and local level is dominated by democrappers..

The Big Dog's back

Governor Nixon is Repub.

just observing

Check again piddle, you do understand with your limited far leftwing loon reading comprehension the term "political leadership" Governor Nixon is a democrapper who is calling the shots, the Highway Patrol is under the democrapper governor, what the fumes from your cleaning chemicals at local 913 confusing you again.

The Big Dog's back

Ohhhh, you mean I just can't blurt things out like you?

The Big Dog's back

24-10 Reups lead in the State Senate. 110-53 state Reps are Repub. What are you smoking? Did you think you could just say something like that and no one would check?

KnuckleDragger

Actually the word MOST is what you are looking for.

KnuckleDragger

"Theres just nothing unarmed (or poorly armed/organized) people can do in the face of well armed & organized people. Period end of story."

I'm sure the men who fought the Revolutionary War would disagree with you.

Restless1

They should be limited to places like Chicago, D.C., etc. where riots and shootings are a way of life.
Last I saw, the Boarder Patrol is using SUVs.

Roger15

Pity that these "Toys for Big Boys" are paid for by our Tax Dollars.

Protect and Serve - Whom?

sugar

Why is anyone surprised? This is what you get with an ever expanding, powerful and corrupt government.
The only reason Holder is yapping about it is because they are focused on " his people". Holder was a Black Panther member and a '60's radical all the way. He doesn't fool me.

santown419

Well sucker you are fooled everyday you wake up. Sucker Is a e wanna be Klan member but is to coward you cant. He she it whatever can't fool me.

sugar

And you are the angry miscreant type that gets shot, what a moron.

KnuckleDragger

Let's not forget, judging from his nonsensical rant that he is also lacking intelligence.

pntbutterandjelly

I hear that Groton Township may soon be getting an Apache helicopter armed with hellfire missiles. They'll use it to scare away geese, woodchucks and deer. Said one local resident, "Public safety from wildlife has always been a concern of mine and now, at last, I can sleep well at night. Thanks to our military-industrial complex for coming to my rescue."

pntbutterandjelly

Maybe if we enlarge the budget for the military...they will supply everyone with some way cool/macho stuff! We are already arming most people in the Middle East and Africa. I want mine too!!!

pntbutterandjelly

I'm sure that you who are critics of this militarization of the local police departments will have a change of heart when crowd control is direly needed during Walmart's Black Friday sales.

pntbutterandjelly

Cedar Point could use some "well-equipped" personnel as parking lot attendants.

pntbutterandjelly

"Big Government" is controlled by "Big Corporations". Know thy enemy.

SamAdams

It's not so much the problem that some police departments have surplus military equipment but rather how and when that equipment is deployed. Full gear to raid a hair salon? THAT'S a police state! Bomb-resistant vehicles on the southern border? Perfectly sensible when you're facing extraordinarily well-armed drug cartels.

I appreciate that this equipment isn't trashed or left behind for our enemies' use. But the attitude of too many local cops jumping on the militarization bandwagon is frightening at best. Remember when former Perkins Chief McClung thought it would be cool for the township to have its own helicopter?

Somebody somewhere needs to exercise a little common sense. It's clear that most in government -- and that includes an appalling number of local-level police chiefs and sheriffs -- are making up for their lack of common sense with a very real and dangerous cowboy mentality!

just observing

I wonder if Holder would have this same opinion if this equipment was being used in a middle class neighborhood, oh I forgot they don't riot when a police officer is killed, they mourn and allow the criminal justice system to function.

The Big Dog's back

So, white kids don't get shot in middle class neighborhoods, just cops. Very telling.

deertracker

White kids shoot each other and teachers and other school officials.....at school.

just observing

piddle mut & deer dong can't explain why no riots in the middle class neighborhoods, the residents wouldn't support, participate or tolerate it. Its called civilized behavior.

deertracker

I didn't see a riot!

sugar

Exactly. You get unstable people everywhere, but when 1/2 the community joins in, there's a big difference.
When those white nuts shoot on schools then get shot themselves do you see the white neighborhoods looting, burning their communities? Oh yeah I forgot you're so abused and held back, you are by those you keep voting for, the Dems.

deertracker

Apples and oranges sugar palin.

deertracker

I am shocked more of you are not focused on the military style response to peaceful protesters. You are always going to have those that take advantage of a bad situation to commit criminal acts but they are still in the minority yet some on here act as though ALL the protesters were looting. I think that is just a poor attempt to ignore the real issue. Some of you may think it is okay to shoot an unarmed Black guy but just wait until it starts happening to whites, and it will.

grumpy

Yes I think that this is another example of gov't control. National gov't offered and State and local gov't took what was offered. Simple gov't screw up.Taking what they don't need, aren't trained to use, can't afford that training, not to maintain those new weapons. Typical gov't overreach. Nothing new, it happens all the time, the more gov't the more gov't screwups.

The Big Dog's back

Once again you go on a Big Gov rant when that's not what deer was saying. You're despicable.

deertracker

@grumpy
Nice try wrong guy!

grumpy

"Nice try"

What was wrong? that the federal gov't gave military equipment to local gov't? That gov't screwed up? Do you now think the gov't did the right thing?

The Big Dog's back

You said National. Is that not "Big Gov" to you? C'mon, take a stand now.

grumpy

Where did I say Big. I said gov't. police, nilitary equipment, given to local gov't by the federal gov't. I made sure not to say Big when I wrote my post. I guess it didn't match your preconceived idea of what I would say. It was gov't who brought in the military equipment. it was gov't who overreacted. it was the mob who also overreacted when they saw the cops. Which was wrong... both

Reading comprehension is not one of your strengths, but that seems to be limited to following your "parties" line.

The Big Dog's back

You said National. Is that not "Big Gov" to you? C'mon, take a stand now.

grumpy

So your definition of Big gov't is national gov't? Every branch of national gov't is Big? Remember reading comprehension? It is still not being taken advantage of by you.

The Big Dog's back

What does it mean to you. I want an answer now.

The Big Dog's back

Still waiting.

just observing

"peaceful protesters" your definition of breaking into business that are in the neighborhood many of them owned by members of the community. The police shouldn't do anything because it wasn't all of the protesters, I saw the video, it was a large group running wild breaking into the business. It should happen to a white if he is running towards the officer in a threatening manner.

The Big Dog's back

So now the right wingnuts are for cutting the military budget? Do tell.

Donegan

You are all for shooting citizens so do not act like you are concerned. The only reason you are slightly interested is its a story about a black guy that got shot and you love to parade dead bodies around and call people racist.

The Big Dog's back

I'm not to concerned about someone who pals around with terrorists in a war zone. I'm concerned about people getting mowed down here while having their hands in the air. Why aren't you concerned about that?

Donegan

Its called citizen rights. We all have them, You do not care about them. That due process thing always gets you huh? Face it if they said this guy was a terrorist and Obama ordered the strike you would cheer. But as it is its just another dead body to parade around while you call people racist.
I wonder why we did not hear anything out of you during the Kelley Thomas ordeal? Oh yeah thats right. He was white.

The Big Dog's back

Wow you had to go back 3 years to find something? Oh, and the reason we didn't hear much was because justice was being carried out. The cops WERE charged.

Donegan

How many minutes before you condemned this officer? He most likely will get charged for murder and he should if the guy was unarmed and lawfully obeying the instructions. We will find out during the investigation and trial. You acting concerned about a citizens rights is funny when you excuse the abuse of them by your god.
BTW Guess you didn't hear the verdict. They got off scott free for beating a unarmed homeless man to death in the middle of the street. The reason you may not have heard it was because there were no riots and your rights as a citizen got knocked down a peg. Something you could care less about.

The Big Dog's back

I never condemned him. But with conflicting stories he should have been arrested.

Donegan

In all cases the DA has to get his ducks in a row and a case that will not fall apart at first glance, This takes time. Hell a judge will not even sign a warrant for arrest without proof that it was done with malice and not in self defense. Innocent till proven guilty, This means EVERYONE should enjoy that right, even a cop who denied a citizen his by shooting him in the street.

The Big Dog's back

It doesn't take a DA to arrest someone. Do you think people who are suspected of a crime on the street get to wait for the DA to make a decision?

Donegan

If they arrest someone without all their facts straight the defense lawyers will shred the DA in court. Yes if they are only a suspect they do wait for the grand jury and the DA to make the decision.

grumpy

The DA gets ONE chance to get a guilty verdict. If a judge kicks the case with prejudice it can't be brought to court again. if they have no proof of what happened, just "stories", not even official statements, the judge won't hold it for grand jury, let alone a trial.

The Big Dog's back

Shut up. Nobody asked you. Keep your big Gov nose out of other's conversation.

grumpy

If you want to control a conversation don't post on a public forum, piddles. Especially when you are shown to be wrong so often and so easily. But then that is common knowledge for most folks. You ARE special... or so your mom used to say...

The Big Dog's back

But they are still arrested. We are not talking about a trial. We are talking about being arrested on the street.

grumpy

Yes we all know every LEO gets arrested on the street when they use a gun... oh that's right... they don't.

The Big Dog's back

And I will ask you again, why aren't you concerned?

Donegan

I am concerned, Concerned about you people trying to make excuses for the feds and making a issue only when it suits you when it all falls under abuse of power.
You want to give up your rights for Obama expecting it not to be abused by everyone? A example of a "Useful idiot"

santown419

What about Sharon jackson, Stephen watts. Donald johnson. Why didn't we hear about it?

just observing

piddle mut and his typical left wing loon rant..

james4

Isn't this what the National Guard is for? Doesn't our tax dollars go to support them? They are well trained and have this kind of equipment and as it should be. So why does the police departmnts feel the need to rival the likes of the National Guard? Leave the Humv's and tanks with the Guard.....protect and serve...

just observing

Where did you see tanks being used, the vehicles are defensive in nature, not offensive. You do realize that the National Guard is part-time with military training that stress lethal force, with only limited civil disobedience training compared to police forces. The National Guard main function is to serve as a ready reserve for the regular armed forces and assist in natural disaster under the direction of each governor and only be used in civil disobedience if the state, county and local police can't handle it and request their assistance via the governor.

The Big Dog's back

Earth to non observant, bush used the National Guard in Iraq and Afghanistan.

just observing

Earth to unintelligent, as I said as the ready reserve for the regular armed forces, no wonder you were a failed political/union hack, you can't read, typical left wing loon. By the way your messiah continued to use the National Guard in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Big Dog's back

You're the one who said they weren't trained.

grumpy

He is the one who said they weren't trained as law enforcement. They are trained to fight wars.

knowitall

Uhhhhhh....did I read someone write they can be used for civil disobedience when the local police cannot handle it? So, they can do more than one thing. Shazam!
Up until Cheney, I mean Bush, most have not had the opportunity to "fight wars". Most of their work had been for things other than fight wars.

grumpy

Where did you get your information that MOST of their work has been for things other than war? Have you been aware of how many National Guard units have been in Iraq and Afganastan the last 11 years? Are you claiming that more units have been used for civil disobedience for the last 11 years? Please give 20 or 30 examples of them being deployed for civl disobedience the last decade or so. If not we will know just how much you know about the Guard, and how incorrect your name is.

just observing

piddle mut you never fail to amaze with your total lack of reasonable understanding I stated "military training that stress lethal force." got it left wing loon..

I

What we have here is a split in the Democrat Party: Union members vs Obama voters.

knowitall

I am neither an Obama supporter nor a union member. Is the split you talked about really moderate conservatives vs. tea baggers?

I

Nope, police union vs rioters...all democrat!

I

Actually, the problem liberals have with the police having military gear and the protesters not, is that it is UNFAIR...their favorite word.

The Big Dog's back

So military gear is OK with you as long as they are using it against Black people. Gotcha.

just observing

Should be used against any group regardless of race if they are rioting in a mob type situation similar to Missouri, news flash the other groups don't.

The Big Dog's back

So they should have used force against cliven bundy and the militia mobs?

just observing

Were they rioting or causing danger to others? Once again time for you to mop the floors at local 913...

The Big Dog's back

Yes. They were threatening to shoot park officials.

I

I'm OK with police using military gear to quell riots or outgun the bad guys of any race. To not use them against black people, just because they are black, would be racist, would it not? Gotcha more.

44846GWP

Too late, Norwalk just got a 60,000 lb, tank. Great for parades!

just observing

Winnie, I'ts an unarmed wheeled personal carrier, big difference from a tank, learn the difference.

WeThePeople1965

It might not be armed, but your buddies on it could be armed with tear gas, high-powered artillery, who knows what else they'd pull out of their derrieres.

just observing

Really, artillery, when is the last a howitzer was parked at your local police department, tear gas is defensive in nature.

Donegan

Tear gas is actually offensive along with flash bangs. The SWAT or military units will usually throw those in first to shock and bewilder the opponent before entering the area. They can be used for defensive purposes to cover a escape when outnumbered but used on civilians it is ALWAYS used offensively.

just observing

A crowd is looting, throwing objects, failing to disperse that's offensive, the response to disperses them is defensive.

knowitall

They will retrofit it with a 50mm.

grumpy

Your city gov't will pay the tens of thousands to retro fit a 50 mm cannon? Then they get to pay hundreds for each round to fire it? Surplus artillery barrels are cut several time, melted or welded shut. It ain't cheap making them fire again, then there is the price of ammo, insurance for them... training... maintiance... how much is your city gov't willing to spend?

44846GWP

No sh-t, ever hear of sarcasim?

knowitall

Good one! Lol. I am glad you saw that. Too bad the simple thinkers did not.

WeThePeople1965

Not too far off there AG. At least that makes sense.

just observing

For all the liberals who do not want local law enforcement to have unarmed defensive vehicles, take a drive to the Homeland Security Building on SR53 near Catawba, drive around back on the adjoining public parking lot. Now tell us why the non military under the messiah should have these same and even larger type vehicles in Ottawa County.

knowitall

That is what the republicans wanted under Cheney, I mean Bush. But, I do agree with your premise that homeland security doesn't need attack vehicles in Ottawa County. That is what you meant, wasn't it? The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!

I

You gotta love all these folks who insist on blaming Cheney, I mean Bush(it's still not funny), for things going on today. Obama has been president for nearly six years, now, not some innocent bystander! If he hasn't gotten rid of a program or changed how a department operates, it's now on him. It's time you folks insisted that Obama put on his big-boy pants and take responsibility for what is going on in this country!

knowitall

Wasn't meant to be funny. It is actually sad. Cheney is a war monger. There were no WMDs and we are still paying for that travesty. I put the present Iraq situation on Bush's administration.
Now, that said, I am not happy with Obama at all. He is the President and it is on him. Let me say, he should put his big boy pants on and take responsibility for what is going on in this country. How is that....we agree. He has done nothing proactive for the economy. It has somewhat gotten better in spite of his negligence.

I

There were no WMDs found at the Homeland Security Building on SR53? Are Cheney and Bush still in charge of federal programs and departments like Homeland Security? That's what we were discussing. Try to keep up!

knowitall

You aren't really asking that first question are you? Did you not understand about WMDs? It is about a culture.....Homeland Security and it's use of military equipment on SR53....unwarranted wars (Iraq and WMD).....armament sales....etc. We are a militaristic country. It was not set up that way.

I

Sarcasm...again, try to keep up.

gene44870

I bet if you were to ask the fsmlies of officers that lost their lives in the line of duty they would tell yea its needed .when the law cannot stop people with the will to kill weather its a resident or an peace officer . then the Officers should have the best equitment thats out here. The number of. Good cops out weigh the bad and as such should get a chance to do his or her job without fear of being shot .
If things were better in this world I wouldnt agree with the police being fitted with.body armor .
If you want the stop this . Fact . You need to stop the drugs that are running a muck ..
Fact . Something needs to be done to stop the guns that are everywhere . And it easier to get a gun then it is to get a job .
And one thing we all need to remember is that its bad out here and fact . Its not going to get any better . Truth be told . Its only getting worse and its only going to keep getting worse till someone does something about it .
Truth ve told this in my eyes in a modern day wild west . The only difference is good people are paying thr price for it

pntbutterandjelly

I can see it all now....

Each policeman's morning begins with learning how to suit up with military-style clothing and personal gear and making a spit-shine on the Sargent's boots. Next comes lessons on how to fire off smoke grenades without inhaling. After that there are lessons on how to stop a suspected terrorist from jaywalking. After a breakfast of MRE's comes more training. This time it's in "Rocket Launching 101" and includes 3 take home rockets. Following a mid-morning break re-loading skills while under water are taught along with the proper stacking of prisoners to achieve maximum capacity per truck. An afternoon siesta ensues after gorging on doughnuts. The mid-afternoon lesson consists of drone identification and how diffuse IED's while riding on roller skates.
It makes for a long gruelling day of training but if you want to be ready, REALLY ready for any contingency expected in Parker Town, Ohio.....

knowitall

Are you talking about Put in Bay?