Mormon church excommunicates women's group founder

Kate Kelly accused of apostasy, or repeated and public advocacy of positions that oppose church teachings
Associated Press
Jun 24, 2014

 

The Mormon church excommunicated the prominent founder of a Mormon women's group, Ordain Women announced Monday afternoon.

Kate Kelly's former church leaders in Virginia notified her of the decision after weighing the high-profile decision overnight.

She did not attend the disciplinary hearing Sunday by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, instead holding a vigil in Salt Lake City with about 200 supporters.

As the leader of Ordain Women, Kelly is accused of apostasy, which is repeated and public advocacy of positions that oppose church teachings.

Mormon officials aren't discussing Kelly's case, but say disciplinary hearings are held when members' actions contradict church doctrine and lead others astray.

Kelly is one of two well-known Mormons facing excommunication. John Dehlin, an outspoken advocate for gays and the creator of a website that provides a forum for church members questioning their faith, has a meeting with his stake president in Logan on June 29 to discuss his case.

Scholars who study the Mormon religion say Kelly and Dehlin are the most high-profile examples of excommunication proceedings since 1993. That year, the church disciplined six Mormon writers who questioned church doctrine, ousting five and kicking out a sixth temporarily.

Jan Shipps, a retired religion professor from Indiana who is a non-Mormon expert on the church, said church leaders are practicing "boundary maintenance," using Kelly and Dehlin as examples to show people how far they can go in questioning church practices.

Kelly said before the decision that she will always be Mormon.

"I don't feel like Mormonism is something that washes off," she said. "That identity is not something that they can take from me."

She was shocked to find out earlier this month from her bishop that she is facing excommunication from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, of which she is a lifelong member. The leader of Ordain Women is accused of apostasy, defined as repeated and public advocacy of positions that oppose church teachings.

Similar vigils were held in 17 countries, according to Ordain Women.

"I'm overwhelmed by the positive support, and I think it really demonstrates that this isn't just happening to one person," Kelly said before the vigil started. "This isn't just happening to me, but it feels like the entire Mormon feminist community is being put on trial."

Kelly, an international human rights lawyer, said she stands behind everything she has done since forming Ordain Women in 2013. The group advocates for gender equality in the faith, with the ultimate goal of allowing women in the lay clergy. Kelly insists that she has not spoken out against church leaders or church doctrine.

Women can hold many leadership positions in church, but aren't allowed to be bishops of congregations or presidents of stakes. Stakes are made up of up to a dozen congregations, known as wards. The church's highest leaders, called the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, are also all men.

The church says only men serve in the lay clergy as prescribed in "the pattern set by the Savior when it comes to priesthood ordination."

Mormon officials aren't discussing Kelly's case specifically. They say they are open to questions and sincere conversations about the faith, but that some members' actions "contradict church doctrine and lead others astray."

"In the Church, we want everyone to feel welcome, safe and valued, and of course, there is room to ask questions," church spokeswoman Ally Isom said. "But how we ask is just as important as what we ask. We should not try to dictate to God what is right for his Church."

Kelly's group drew rebukes from church leaders in April when they marched on church property in downtown Salt Lake City's Temple Square. The women asked to be allowed in a meeting reserved for members of the priesthood, which includes most males in the church who are 12 and older. Church leaders had previously told the group they wouldn't be let in and warned them not to disturb the faith's biannual general conference that weekend.

Melissa Mayhew, 31, traveled about 40 miles from Orem to attend Sunday's vigil and to support Kelly's right to advocate.

"We are all of us people who see things that we would love to improve about the church that we love deeply and dearly," Mayhew said. "And we want to be able to actually have these conversations, even with people with whom we disagree."

Comments

yea right

this is funny..in order to be true Morman..you have to be pure..NO additives in your body like caffeine..thats why the CHURCH owns the Coke a cola bottling co in Salt Lake city..NO gambling..thats why half of SLC empties into Wendover NV. everyweekend..hmmm whats the problem...

MrsCowboy

When will people wake up and unleash the ties of greed, ignorance, and power --- in other words, break free from religion?

O'Heritage

There is no freedom outside of Christ. You will be a slave to someone or something.

yea right

they tell how much they want of your paycheck..they tell you who to be friends with..they tell you how to dress..they tell what you can watch on tv or at the movies.. hmm who's the slave??

jazzbo

... also , you can be a slave to your own lust and desires.

ladydye_5

Not true. I am not a slave to anyone or anything. Many people have free will.

Donegan

You are a slave you just do not know it. Neglect your taxes see what happens, you may not get the whip for not towing the rope but you will be punished by the state for not paying up.
How free are you when you must give up half of the fruits of your labor to the state while following laws that almost no one agrees with?
Now pay up slave and quit acting foolish.

WeThePeople1965

That's the U.S. I have to abide by the rules or I leave my kids with no home.

Contango

Re: "Many people have free will."

Were you taught that?

thinkagain's picture
thinkagain

Well said!

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

WeThePeople1965

Sure, my job, my family. Yes, I am agnostic.

freethinker1

O'Heritage: On the contrary, since becoming an atheist in 2008, I am free and a slave to no one. Nowadays, I lead a moral life, and do the right thing for my fellow man, because it's the right thing to do. I don't need extrinsic motivation (fear of punishment, promise of eternal life). Tell me again about your freedom?

jazzbo

freethinker1-
Why do you lead a "moral" life if there is no God ?

Velveeta's picture
Velveeta

The same could be said of Government.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

It isn't just religion. Religion is a medium for action. The outcomes can be seen in many ways and certainly not all of them "bad". But what is the origin if we see both the terminus and channel through which things are compelled?

If we are to believe one opinion: altruism.

Many of the younger generation may be aware of this concept here: http://youtu.be/QYU2qp5Owxw

However if you wish to hear the words of the actual source of the above: http://youtu.be/51pMod2Aaso

Truth or Dare

Did she renounce her belief in God, in Christ? No!!!! I find it interesting she is an international human rights lawyer! God bless her for that!

Pretty sure she's aware that their is no one, no earthly man, no principality be it any church government or political government that can separate us spiritually from God! The only one that can? One's self.

freethinker1

Actually, there are a few other things that can separate man from God: simple logic, science. Chapman Cohen said, "Gods are fragile things. They may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense".

I contend that we are ALL atheists. I just believe in one less god than Christians do. As soon as you understand why you don't believe in the Norse/Roman/Greek gods of antiquity, you'll understand why I don't believe in the god of the Bible.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

I will have to kindly disagree, freethinker.

By our very nature we are a deific people. We are all creatures who hold onto singular beliefs and a faith in the aggregate. You can call it whatever you want: Zeus, Ra, Odin, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jehova, yaoyorozu no kami, science, common sense, etc. That part isn't as important as the fact that these are the characters in a grand tale of life, creation, nature, and human instincts.

So long as we are the only storytellers, our species will be the only ones with gods/God. Storytelling is the one thing that makes us different from all the other living creatures on the earth. That is our gift, our interesting evolutionary uniqueness. With the ability to tell a story, so were pantheons (such as the Hindus') and monotheistic (such as the Zoroastrians') scriptures written. As well, we practice storytelling Darwinism by ensuring those with inferior stories have their come to an end through death or conversion. Almost counter-intuitive to nature, the story itself - not strength, eyesight, or other physical traits - is what compels the culling of the weak and rise of the strong.

We exist as no other species does and yet we are without a higher presumption of calling/learning/importance?

You may choose to call your title character "S/he Who Does Not Exist" yet despite the name, there is this character that you conjured with the same whiff you may puff across someone else's. Unless you forsake your storytelling ability via some kind of brain trauma or death, you are by sheer virtue of your ability to think, a theologian. As are we all.

As soon as you understand why you believe you'll drive through that next intersection and not be a lethal car wreck, you'll understand why others believe in whatever scriptures or icons they do.

In my humble opinion.

In another's...

“Unlike the God whose name begins with a capital letter, our gods are not all-powerful, [Addressee]. Can you imagine that? Any one of them can be vanquished by a flamethrower or a bulldozer or a bomb — silenced, driven away, enfeebled. Sit in the middle of a shopping mall at midnight, surrounded by half a mile of concrete in all directions, and there the god that was once as strong as a buffalo or a rhinoceros is as feeble as a moth sprayed with pyrethrin. Feeble — but not dead, not wholly extinguished. Tear down the mall and rip up the concrete, and within days that place will be pulsing with life again. Nothing needs to be done, beyond carting away the poisons. The god knows how to take care of that place. It will never be what it was before — but nothing is ever what it was before. It doesn’t need to be what it was before. You’ll hear people talk about turning the plains of North America back into what they were before the [storytellers] arrived. This is nonsense. What the plains were five hundred years ago was not their final form, was not the final, sacrosanct form ordained for them from the beginning of time. There is no such form and never will be any such form. Everything here is on the way. Everything here is in process.”

Contango

Enjoyed the syllogism of:

God is omnipotent.
If God is omnipotent, then He has the power to not exist.
If He exists, then He is not God.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.

jazzbo

You enjoyed pure nonsense.

Contango

Re: "nonsense."

It's often been called the "omnipotence paradox."

And great minds unlike yours have pondered it for centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omn...

jazzbo

You have no great mind and they just wasted their time.

Contango

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

'But,' says Man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED'

'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."

- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

jazzbo

More fantasy nonsense ^^

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

As you don't seem to appreciate "fantasy nonsense", I will try to appeal to your logic, jazzbo. How about this:

“The God of revealed religions—and by this I mean religions like yours, Taker religions — is a profoundly inarticulate God. No matter how many times he tries, he can’t make himself clearly or completely understood. He speaks for centuries to the Jews but fails to make himself understood. At last he sends his only-begotten son, and his son can’t seem to do any better. Jesus might have sat himself down with a scribe and dictated the answers to every conceivable theological question in absolutely unequivocal terms, but he chose not to, leaving subsequent generations to settle what Jesus had in mind with pogroms, purges, persecutions, wars, the burning stake, and the rack. Having failed through Jesus, God next tried to make himself understood through Muhammad, with limited success, as always. After a thousand years of silence he tried again with Joseph Smith, with no better results. Averaging it out, all God has been able to tell us for sure is that we should do unto others as we’d have them do unto us. What’s that — a dozen words? Not much to show for five thousand years of work, and we probably could have figured out that much for ourselves anyway. To be honest, I’d be embarrassed to be associated with a god as incompetent as that.” ― Daniel Quinn, The Story of B: An Adventure of the Mind and Spirit

I believe that is the same spirit of the message that Contango was pointing out above by citing a widely-popular writer. This quote, however, doesn't use Babel fish. It uses observable trends and historical record.

If you'd like to have a theological discussion I am all for it, jazzbo. Especially because there is more to the story of the quote above and not about the direction in which you may think. However, another quote I provided in this thread is a stepping stone in that direction.

jazzbo

Give me your definition of :“The God of revealed religions".
Explain that.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Revealed religions require a medium such as a prophet or soothsayer in order to dictate God's will to other people. Natural religions rely on the observation of nature around the followers and the interaction of all things to provide evidence of God's manifestation.

To tie this to the article, Mormonism is a revealed religion as it requires a middleman (Smith) to outline how you can interact with God and tell you what God expects of you. Animistic beliefs such as druidism are natural religions. God is at your fingertips and requires nothing between you and whatever you are enjoying/observing.

The above said, I am not bashing a particular belief system.

jazzbo

Probably the generic definition of 'religion' would be a good place to start.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Babo

God isn't inarticulate. One must know how to listen.

jazzbo

.

jazzbo

@ hz

--And a good definition also comes from the Encyclopædia Britannica :

"religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence. It is also commonly regarded as consisting of the way people deal with ultimate concerns about their lives and their fate after death. In many traditions, this relation and these concerns are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitude toward gods or spirits; in more humanistic or naturalistic forms of religion, they are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitudes toward the broader human community or the natural world. In many religions, texts are deemed to have scriptural status, and people are esteemed to be invested with spiritual or moral authority. Believers and worshipers participate in and are often enjoined to perform devotional or contemplative practices such as prayer, meditation, or particular rituals. Worship, moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions are among the constituent elements of the religious life."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchec...

OK.

YOU : “ The God of revealed religions—and by this I mean religions like yours, Taker religions — is a profoundly inarticulate God."

? What do you mean by :" Taker religions " ?

Donegan

"religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence"
Just like you delusional people look at Government, 2 sides of the same coin.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Following the concept presented in the book(s) I quoted, jazzbo, mankind is separated into two categories. You have Takers and Leavers.

"The premise of the Takers' story is 'The world belongs to man.'...The premise of the Leavers' story is 'Man belongs to the world.'"

Primarily Takers use revealed religions in order to guide their decisions while Leavers practice natural religions. An ultimate argument can be extrapolated that man has existed up until recently (in history's grand scheme) as Leavers and in so doing grew and developed to the point that we did with all our intelligence and dexterity. Only now, after interjecting ourselves as middlemen between God/gods and each other, are we mucking about with each other and the planet. Hence, why they are "Takers". We have stopped evolving because no longer must we adapt to the world after separating ourselves from it.

We take from it (resources, etc.). We take from each other (taxes, altruism, etc.). While there are many who would believe themselves to be Leavers, the culture in which they participate and even act in are still very much "Taker". I'm not going to change topics from theological discussion to this, but "man-made climate change" is perhaps the most prominent Taker cultural/near-religion point in our world today.

So a "Taker religion" is one that separates you from the world in some way and putting you above it, in mastery over it, or keeping you apart from everything else.

“Would the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God have sent his only-begotten son to save those beetles and their household mites, Jared?” “No.” “But the god of this place has as great a care for them as for any other creature in the world. This is why I knew you could benefit from seeing those beetles yesterday. Those beetles are a manifestation of the gods’ unending abundance and a sign to be read by those who have eyes to read. I wanted you to see how the gods lavish care without stint on every thing: no less upon a beetle whose supreme achievement is burying a mouse than upon the brain of Einstein, no less upon a mite whose favorite dish is a fly’s egg than upon the eye of Michelangelo.”

jazzbo

So , your above view of reality is taken from the authors of a couple books ?

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not here. Perhaps you should read them? I can't force you to do anything, but I can try to open your mind to different ways of thinking. Do you have other questions you'd like to toss my way? I don't have a degree in theology, but I'll do my best to continue a reasonable discussion with you.

jazzbo

I edited too slow again.

jazzbo

You should ask Jesus to open your mind.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

You are seeing the results of just that.

jazzbo

So , you asked Jesus for help and he led you to the above conclusion ? That is :

"Following the concept presented in the book(s) I quoted, jazzbo, mankind is separated into two categories. You have Takers and Leavers.

"The premise of the Takers' story is 'The world belongs to man.'...The premise of the Leavers' story is 'Man belongs to the world..... etc.'"

-Is that what you mean ?

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Why wouldn't I come to read history, philosophy, and religion when I am seeking answers? I got my atheist phase out of my system when I was a teen with the cocky notion I knew better.

jazzbo

.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

I didn't catch what you had before it was edited this time. What are your thoughts? If you disagree with them you are welcome to ask about them or make counter-proposals.

jazzbo

"Following the concept presented in the book(s) I quoted, jazzbo, mankind is separated into two categories."

-- Mankind is born separated from God.

"The premise of the Takers' story is 'The world belongs to man.'...The premise of the Leavers' story is 'Man belongs to the world.'"
"Primarily Takers use revealed religions in order to guide their decisions while Leavers practice natural religions. An ultimate argument can be extrapolated that man has existed up until recently (in history's grand scheme) as Leavers and in so doing grew and developed to the point that we did with all our intelligence and dexterity. Only now, after interjecting ourselves as middlemen between God/gods and each other, are we mucking about with each other and the planet. Hence, why they are "Takers". We have stopped evolving because no longer must we adapt to the world after separating ourselves from it."
We take from it (resources, etc.). We take from each other (taxes, altruism, etc.). While there are many who would believe themselves to be Leavers, the culture in which they participate and even act in are still very much "Taker". I'm not going to change topics from theological discussion to this, but "man-made climate change" is perhaps the most prominent Taker cultural/near-religion point in our world today.
So a "Taker religion" is one that separates you from the world in some way and putting you above it, in mastery over it, or keeping you apart from everything else.

-- God told man to rule over the Earth and everything in it.
http://legacy.biblegateway.com/p...

“Would the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God have sent his only-begotten son to save those beetles and their household mites, Jared?” “No.” “But the god of this place has as great a care for them as for any other creature in the world. This is why I knew you could benefit from seeing those beetles yesterday. Those beetles are a manifestation of the gods’ unending abundance and a sign to be read by those who have eyes to read. I wanted you to see how the gods lavish care without stint on every thing: no less upon a beetle whose supreme achievement is burying a mouse than upon the brain of Einstein, no less upon a mite whose favorite dish is a fly’s egg than upon the eye of Michelangelo.”

--Jesus came to save mankind from eternal separation from God.

http://legacy.biblegateway.com/p...

jazzbo

.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

The only way man could have been separated before was when they were Leavers and not Takers. So, the Taker religion of God's command (as spoken by a "revealed" human) that you posted here compelled the Leavers to become Takers. I'm not sure if you were trying to make a different point than the one I was presenting, but I appreciate your validation of the thought we are forming.

It can certainly be argued that Jesus was sent to break the Taker laws where the rules of man (taxation, temple rules, etc.) were imposed on the populace. Then, after those events we see Catholicism rise as a Taker religion. Martin Luther attempted to break the Taker laws with the Reformation. But even in the hundreds of years after that event...where do you see things now?

Why do they end up being primarily "Taker" in nature? Because of man's ambition and sense of altruism. Because the thought is that man is not a part of the world. We are special and different from it. So it sullies the Leaver notions (with God being the ultimate Leaver). Look at Leaver religions.

While practiced by man, they stress that man is a part of the world, not apart from it. So man needs no revelation by another man to tell them what to do or think. God (capital G, singular - or if you prefer, gods) is manifest in every flower, hunted deer, thunderstorm, cup of wine, death, and act of conception. They don't need reminders, robes, gilded items, etc.

Now mind you as I describe that I am not calling one "bad" and one "good". The point is to illustrate the differences and try to put context on the point we are discussing. So be you any variety of Catholic or Lutheran (as I mentioned them in example by name), please don't take it as a waggling finger.

jazzbo

Honestly , I have no idea what point you trying to make.

Do you want a debate or do you just want to preach your beliefs ?

I'm tired of trying to figure out what youre saying and really don't want to continue listening to the imaginations coming from the inside of your head.

The Bible is how God " articulates " to mankind -- and so far , everything you've written is anti -Biblical.

PS

...or non Biblical.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Is it? How so?

jazzbo

You think they are Biblical ?

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Of course. The story of the Takers overcoming the Leavers is a central theme in the Bible. Take Cain and Abel. That's a classic one. Babo earlier made an excellent Leaver comment about God in reference to using mediums to communicate and live instead of just doing it yourself. Also, if not the reason the Bible exists, I have tried to prove not just here with you but to freethinker earlier that God actually does exist.

So I'd hope that what I say gets to what the Bible tries to compel others to do in its own way.

jazzbo

" Of course. The story of the Takers overcoming the Leavers is a central theme in the Bible"

--- No , you are wrong.

jazzbo

I believe that you are heavily influenced by the doctrines of demons.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Hmmm.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

You are an interesting person to try to get to know, jazzbo. That's not an insult and I honestly appreciate the fact you try engaging in conversation and ask questions. If you had any more than accusing me of being a demon worshiper that'd be nice.

Though perhaps in some ways if we look at the origin of the word demon (daimónion, Greek for "thing of divine nature") in most other concepts outside of Judeo-Christain beliefs all the other gods and spirits of a place are "demons". It shares an origin with Latin's "daemon" which in classical mythology refers to demi/gods, subordinate deities, or the guardian of a place or person.

So perhaps you were right in that the things I quote are "demonic" just not in the narrower pitchfork-and-horns kind of way. The demons are simply manifestations of all of creation in Leaver-centered religions being divine entities. To refer back to the book. Or if you would rather not use such language we can discuss it another way?

If that's the case, what's on your mind?

jazzbo

I didn't accuse you of being a " demon worshiper ".
You can easily look back at the text to see what I said.

But you're not a God worshiper , that is , the God who is " revealed " in the Bible.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Explain your reasoning for declaring me a non-Biblical God worshiper, would you?

jazzbo

Wed, 06/25/2014 - 6:19am

"I will have to kindly disagree, freethinker.

By our very nature we are a deific people. We are all creatures who hold onto singular beliefs and a faith in the aggregate. You can call it whatever you want: Zeus, Ra, Odin, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jehova, yaoyorozu no kami, science, common sense, etc. That part isn't as important as the fact that these are the characters in a grand tale of life, creation, nature, and human instincts."

--The above is one big clue.

Apparently , to you , it makes no difference what name you call on. Invoke any name , worship anyone -- it's all good , right ?

You wouldn't write that way if you worshiped the Biblical God.

I love how you said : " The demons are simply manifestations of all of creation in Leaver-centered religions being divine entities"

"The demons are simply manifestations..." , la- di- da.

Demons HATE YOU , and they want to destroy you.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Of course, the thunder clouds are scary and hate you, your crops, house, dog, and family if you don't know what causes them. So, a "demon" as we defined earlier is responsible. For someone who enjoys and refers Dr. Tyson to me it is interesting the way you are presenting your points - unless he is ungodly too?

How about transitioning the look at demons from theology to psychology?

What do you think about this quote?

“In religion, the ego manifests as the devil and of course no one realizes how smart the ego is because it created the devil so you can blame someone else. There is no such thing as an external enemy, no matter what that voice in your head is telling you. All perception of an enemy is a projection of the ego as the enemy.” - Dr. Deepak Chopra

jazzbo

The quote is more lies from Satan and he used Dr. Deepak Chopra as just another mouthpiece.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Hmm, I see. Then I suppose the conversation can go no further. I appreciate having it with you.

jazzbo

I have one more question.

What's the name of the belief system , if it has a name , that you belong to?

New Age ,Humanism .....what ?

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Sorry for the delay, this was put on a different page, but thanks for bringing it back closer to the left margin. I don't think my system has a name, per se. I was born into/baptized/confirmed Episcopal, went through an atheist phase, at university I became agnostic since seeing all the different cultures and religions that shared a common theme. Since that time I have taken it upon myself to study those common bonds to understand them.

And, from that, I feel very comfortable with the notion that God exists. As what or by what name? That's not as important to me as the matter of the existence of said entity.

"A rose by any other name will smell just as sweet."

I still attend service for the major Christian holidays but due to my personal life any regular Sunday morning church service isn't possible. My belief system is simply "life" as that is what the missing piece was for me to come to the conclusion I did.

I get dogma and symbolism. I appreciate their use in literature. I enjoy the allegories and parables in various scriptures and mythologies. They all tell a tale which brings us back around to why we are unique as a species because, much like G/god(s)/demons, we are capable of creating infinite possibilities, worlds, buildings, etc.

I wish I had a short answer for you, jazz, and just throw out a name like Methodist, Sikh, Sufi, or Zoroastrianism. They are each meaningful to their followers and so long as they don't advocate the murder/suppression of non-believers and/or confiscation of their property I'm happy for them living by those guidelines.

But for me? "Universal Unitarianism" comes close in terms of acceptance of others' faiths, but I in no way support their socio-economic beliefs as illustrated by their leader (Why have a leader when it is YOUR faith? Right?) here: http://www.uua.org/economic/inde...

I'm not about to support a religion that advocates the separation of people by class and preaches about income redistribution.

jazzbo

Why do you bother to attend services for the major Christian holidays ?

The central theme of the Bible is about Jesus.
In the Old Testament Christ is anticipated; in the New Testament he is realized .

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

It's no bother to do so and I have enjoyed services in the churches of several sects. Why would I pass an opportunity to enjoy culture history, faith, and nostalgia? It's hardly a waste of time!

It was no more a bother than when I visited the President's reelection office twice. Or when I do a great many things.

What do you consider the Book of Mormon if the first two testaments are as you say?

jazzbo

Were you an only child ?

Have you researched Mormonism ?

I have.

Book of Mormon is nothing more than a nineteenth-century fictional novel

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Why ask if I was an only child? No I'm not and yes I've researched it.

EDIT: I keep a Book of Mormon on my shelf next to other texts. As I said I enjoy learning about people. It's an amazing world out there filled with extraordinary people if you're willing to explore.

jazzbo

Just wondered - because you have a very fertile imagination.

So , I answered your question(s). Now what ?

PS

What do you think about the book ?

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

I appreciate the compliment. Now what? Well, we discussed a lot. We can end here, revisit a prior point, or if you want to call me out on something you may. I'm not perfect, but I do try to learn and connect things in non-foil-hat ways.

jazzbo

I was too slow again.

jazzbo

One more thing-

Those two books you mentioned ...one was :

Daniel Quinn, The Story of B: An Adventure of the Mind and Spirit

and the other was ?...Takers and Leavers ?

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Ishmael, by the same author. B is technically the sequel to it but it can be a standalone.

jazzbo

Thank you.

jazzbo

Hmm , that was a theological discussion , hmm.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Do you not believe we talked about a great many things that relate to beliefs, faith, and religion? If there is something more you wanted to bring up, or if you feel I left something out, then you are welcome to throw it out there.

As for your edit to ask about the book (by which I presume you mean the Book of Mormon), I see it as a book of tales and experiences meant to make you think. Just as the Bible is meant to do. I've heard others call it Christian fanfiction, but even if it is...so what?

I actually felt bad for some missionaries that came by the store years ago. They were really nice guys who got to show others that they were human beings like everyone else while they were there. They got into one of the card games and enjoyed it as a hobby. Unfortunately their bishop found out and made them return all the cards and presumably forbade them and future missionaries from ever coming back as I haven't seen any in the store.

If I'm sore at anything it is that. Not even for commercial reasons. The money they spent were pittance to the experience I had with them and the fact they were in a place that accepted them as people and didn't see them as Bible-thumping "soul peddlers" to use a term for Mormon missionaries from a movie.

Hollie Newton

What we need is a good old fashioned public stoning...

 

Contango
The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Ah thanks for the revisit to that short story, Contango. In retrospect I was fortunate to have the literature teachers I did in high school. Whether it was his choice or the curriculum, he presented it in a way that left an impact on me and taught me to spot symbolism.

We read that as well as Animal Farm, 1984, The Crucible, Romeo and Juliet, Lord of the Flies, and Fahrenheit 451 among many others.

Contango

You're welcome.

My other thought on a public stoning was the scene from "Life of Brian."

"And a packet of gravel."

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

Now I have the end song stuck in my head. If you need me I'll be whistling...

Contango

Re: "Free will"

YES WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS! :)

pntbutterandjelly

I wonder what our national and world societies would be like if...women were the rulers. To eliminate testosterone from all forms of "governmental bodies" may make for a far more civil world. "Nurturing" not Combating"

jazzbo

Hillary !!!

2016 - 2024

Contango

Re: "may make for a far more civil world."

Perhaps, but I'd never get between a bear mother and her cubs. :)

Babo

There's some evidence that the Y chromosome and male traits are shrinking/disappearing as strength, aggression and territoriality are dangerous or not necessary in a civilized society and technologically advanced society that values communication and nurturing.

If one views the Genesis story as an allegory for evolution, woman created last is the most evolved as evidenced by separate uro/reproductive systems and a more highly integrated brain. Since men are not needed for reproduction as a sperm bank can effectively repopulate the world, and men commit the vast majority of crimes and wars; maybe the end point for humankind is a female run world that is closer to God/Mother Nature due identity with the creative force.

The above is not my view but evolutionary biology is interesting and if one buys into evolution one has to believe we are still evolving and that some humans are therefore less evolved and less equal than others.

The Hero Zone's picture
The Hero Zone

You may enjoy a series called "Y the Last Man".

Don't read too far down in case of spoilers but the first few paragraphs will give you a good idea of what it's about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y:_...

Pterocarya frax...

Come on KnuckleDragger....we are waiting for your words of wisdom about your religion.

Dr. Information

God is good.

From the Grave

If God created us in his image, then he must be one stupid mofo.