Bellevue police fired 24 shots; 15 struck James David Sr.

Fifteen of 24 bullets fired by two Bellevue police officers struck their intended target on Sept. 22. The bullets - fired from .40-caliber and 9 mm handguns - tore through James David Sr.'s jaw, lungs, heart, liver and intestines.
Annie Zelm
Nov 21, 2010

Fifteen of 24 bullets fired by two Bellevue police officers struck their intended target on Sept. 22. 

The bullets — fired from .40-caliber and 9 mm handguns — tore through James David Sr.’s jaw, lungs, heart, liver and intestines.

The bullets entered through his cheek, neck, arm, shoulder, chest, abdomen and buttocks, according to a Lucas County autopsy report released Thursday.

The autopsy lists the cause of death as homicide, a ruling that generally applies to a death caused by another person.

Toxicology tests put David’s blood-alcohol level at 0.13 percent, and there were no other substances in his system when he died.

A 99-page investigative report the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation, released earlier this week, said the two officers fired their guns as they stood in front of David, at his right and left.

The wounds described in the autopsy report appear to indicate the same.

Officer Erik Lawson and Sgt. Jeffrey Matter approached David to investigate a complaint from neighbors who said David brandished a gun at them after they’d apparently bothered him.

David, 60, was sitting on his Union Street porch with a gun by the time officers arrived. Lawson and Matter approached him in the dark and shined their flashlights on him as they introduced themselves. 

They had their weapons drawn but at their sides, according to the BCI report. Lawson said he used a normal tone to introduce himself, but David jumped up from his chair and began to move toward the front door.

He then turned and pointed his gun at Lawson.

Lawson fired the first shot, and Matter followed suit. Lawson fired a total of 16 shots — emptying his gun of every bullet — while Matter fired eight.

Fifteen shots struck David while the other nine bullets ripped through the porch and parts of the home. 

The BCI report said David had hearing problems, according to testimony from his wife Karen.

Also Thursday, Bellevue police released two transcripts of interviews state investigators conducted with Matter and Lawson just hours after the shooting.

David’s family has said they think he may have fallen asleep on the porch, and the officers might have startled him as they approached in the darkness.

The BCI investigator concluded the two officers did not err in their actions that night.

“Providing no additional statements and/or evidence are presented to BCI & I, there is no other good conclusion than the deputies faced an imminent threat to their safety based on the facts and circumstances present at the time,” special agent Thomas Brokamp wrote in his summary.

A special grand jury convened Tuesday and affirmed the state’s ruling, opting not to charge Lawson or Matter.

Both officers have returned to normal duties. They’d been on desk duty since the shooting.

Lucas County deputy coroner Cynthia Beisser examined David’s body the day after his death and wrote the autopsy report, while Lucas County coroner James Patrick signed the document on Oct. 29. The autopsy is also time-stamped Nov. 10, apparently after toxicology results were completed to finalize the report.

Click on the PDFs below to read the autopsy report and state investigators' interviews with the two Bellevue police officers. 

Read a previous story and the BCI investigation report here. 

 

Comments

magiclady

I think it's a shame that the cops can be justifiable for their actions even when they are wrong. They wear bullet proof vest why not take the chance to see if they will fire or not before you unload your gun inthem. I say that was excessive force all those bullets, not necessary. what appened to wonding them instead of killing them. It was dark are they sure he pointed his gun at them. The police takes that badge a little bit to serious.. My prayers goes out to the family.

bobaluey

magic lady?  are you nuts or on drugs?  what a stupid comment

Duhast

Why don't they just issue Uzis to the Bellevue cops?  Then they won't have to reload when they shoot people.

dorothy gale

Wow.  Such a tragic way to show, yet again, that guns, alcohol and anger are a lethal combination and can never lead to a happy outcome.  My heart goes out to ALL involved --- the David family as well as the officers.  So sad. 

pepenik99

HMMMMM.....DID ANYONE EVER DO ANY TESTING OF TOXICOLOGY OF THE TWO OFFICERS?  EVEN WHEN I AM DRINKING I CAN SHOOT BETTER THAN THAT AND I KNOW WHEN I HAVE SURPASSED 2 0R 3 SHOTS EVEN IN THE DARK.....

greggsing

PEPENIK99

 from your comments I have to believe that should have an issue with the police.  Asking if the police had a toxicology tests has to be one of the most ignorant comments I've read. You are the typical person that would make comments never in favor of the police and always in favor of the criminal, I hope you never require law enforcement to assist you, Actually I have to wonder if you would call for assistance because obviously  law enforcement should be drug tested,and Alcohol tested before they come here crime scene.  A+ to you stuped.

bama

In response to the comment "magiclady" made. Are you out of your mind? Let me get this straight, you would have asked the officers to stand there and let someone shoot at them 1st prior to defending themselves? Is that what I am hearing?  Yes they wear body armor but your assuming that #1 the guy will hit them in the armor and #2 it would stop the bullet. No vest is "bullet proof". In your comment you have now said that you expect the police to "take a chance" and let someone take a wild shot at them before defending themselves and speaking of which defending themselves does not equal taking "that badge to serious" .

Matt Damon

<quote> They wear bullet proof vest why not take the chance to see if they will fire or not before you unload your gun inthem.<quote>

 

This is BY FAR the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on here.

 

Some people....

MomofThree

I can't believe anyone with common sense would suggest that a police officer should take the chance to see if they will fire or not.  This man pointed a gun at them as they approached.  They told him who they were.  They were called because he threatened someone else with a gun.  Bullet proof vests don't cover the officer's head and a shot to the head would kill them plus bullet proof vests don't always work anyway.  It is unfortunate but people need to realize that alcohol (and drugs) plus handguns do not mix and if you point a gun at an police officer then there will be consequences!

gavinbrooke

I'm sure glad  I'm not a cop these days.  Because as this comment thread shows, simply by being forced to use a gun, the morons with authority issues will line up and start barking like a bunch of hungry dogs.

    Pepenik99...  Of course you could shoot better drunk.  I know your type.  You can do anything bigger an better than anyone and have to top everybody in every conversation.  That's why you appear in this forum trashing people...because it gives you an outlet to artificially pad your ridiculously low self-esteem.

 

Magiclady...I think it would be best to keep your opinion to yourself, because quite honestly your comment does not speak well of your intelligence level.  So your way to solve this problem is to let the criminals get off a shot first to see what happens????  Really?!  A vest only protects the torso...not the head.  Not to mention that a shot to the arm or leg can also be fatal if its an artery.  And this whole issue of unloading their clips is stupid.  If one carefully placed bullet is fatal, what's the difference is if they shot 50?  It was dark, it was impossible to see if they were hitting their mark, and it all happened very fast.  One simply does not have enough time to determine if each individual shot was working.  I'd like to see how quickly and calmly you could react if someone were pointing a weapon at you.  And since when does defending yourself from gunfire equate to taking a badge too seriously?  It's people like you that make me feel sorry for cops in these no-win situations.

 

 

 

SMH-FML

magiclady ... n/m i dont have anything nice to say. lol.

Unabasho

~
What sre we, if not
a nation of abusers --
booze and drugs and guns
~

thinkagain
It does sound like David was startled and confused. I’m not convinced David heard the officer, or knew who was shining the light. Regardless, If you own a handgun, never display it unless you intend to use it. IF the events unfolded as the officers described, they had no choice. 
asdferdf

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained libelous or defamatory statements. Discussion Guidelines

Duhast
Did anyone see the discrepancies in the two accounts? One says he ran, the other says he walked. The one officer says he was sitting and the other says standing. Nobody even asked what David said to Lawson. I’m sure they wouldn’t have fired if they didn’t feel threatened. I’m not saying they just shot the guy for no reason. But once he was down, they kept firing. I’m not sure how you can even get 16 shots into a guy before he drops. 
Cross

24 shots?

Really?

Why not one or two shots? I've seen shootouts in California where the cops didn't fire 24 times.

They executed this old guy. Was there really a need for both cops to empty their barrels, when the guy didn't fire a shot back?

I have no doubt they felt scared, but Bellevue police are incompetent or this is a cover up.

It's high time for every cop to have a camera planted on him at all times, so we can review exactly what is happening. They have way too much power and latitude, and need more accountability, especially if they feel the need to fire 20+ shots at an old guy on his own property without a shot being fired back.

Julie R.

24 shots fired, 15 hit Mr. David and the other nine tore through the porch and parts of the home. It's a good thing Mr. David's wife didn't come running out during the gunfire. It's a good thing she wasn't standing in the parts of the home that the bullets went through, too. This is pathetic. Poor guy never even got to enjoy his retirement.

Bigboy

That was the worst piece of journalism I have ever read in my life. "Tore through his intestines" why is that in the paper? What purpose does that serve? He was obviously drunk on his front porch and pissed off at a bunch of complete idiots that had provoked him for some time. He was drunk carrying a weapon and pointed it at and threatened a police officer. The idiots that provoked him ought to be in jail.

Factitious

Movies make us think the impact of a slug knocks the victim down, but the reality is, not usually, due to physics -- to over-simplify it, there's just not enough energy to do much more than make holes. And the more powerfull the handgun, the harder it is to shoot accurately. The fastest way to drop a subject is a head shot. Next is the heart.

It is my understanding that Israeli police are train to shoot at the head when faced with certain imminent lethal threats.

Cowboy

You know, I'm glad it was the officers who woke him up and not the paper boy collecting for the month or this story would be a lot different.  Good job boys in blue...you did a fine job in a tense situation.  I hope you do the same in my neighborhood if someone is sitting intoxicated on their front porch with a gun cocked and loaded.

bellevueboy

hmmmm.......what if your son or daughter was on the porch with a water gun in the middle of the night and was startled by two meter maids and jumped up as they told him to drop his gun in a normal tone and then was blown away???? those to mall cops did not know what they were doing and handled this the wrong way......and to put these two back on the streets is terrible.........

zwest

bellevueboy,

How would you have handled it?

 

bellevueboy

lets see.....they knew he had a gun right???????? Y not pull in with your cruiser??????? with the lights on???????? Im sure there would of been a total different outcome.......NO....lets just creep up to him......close enough to talk in a normal tone and blind him with the flash lights..........Does that not make sense zwest????? or should they have just gone in total black ops like it was bin laden sitting on the porch.......maybe thats what was going through lawsons head when fired 16 shots......

dont blame me

Sneaking through the backs yards, startling and blinding a man with a flashlight causing him to lift his arms and then shooting him on his own porch.  The problem, Mr. David is dead and the grand jury does not indict police officers for stupidity or lack of common sense. 

gavinbrooke

Of course, a drunk guy sitting on his own porch with a gun in such plain sight that neighbors across the way could see it had nothing to do with it.  Talk about stupidity. No one is responsible for their own actions anymore.  Lets just blame it on the cops.  It's a lot easier.

gavinbrooke

Of course, a drunk guy sitting on his own porch with a gun in such plain sight that neighbors across the way could see it had nothing to do with it.  Talk about stupidity. No one is responsible for their own actions anymore.  Lets just blame it on the cops.  It's a lot easier.

SamAdams

This entire incident is a tragedy, both for the family of the man who died as well as for the cops who shot and killed him. It's entirely possible that David didn't hear it (or hear it accurately) when the police identified themselves. But the bottom line is that he pointed a gun at the police, and when you do that, it's virtually guaranteed that the police at whom the gun is pointed will take pre-emptive action.

Magiclady, you're an idiot. Body armor isn't infallible (you've never heard of armor-piercing ammunition?), nor does it cover you from head to toe. There's not a cop anywhere on any beat that I'd ever suggest wait to see what the bad guy does next before taking action him- or herself. If it was your life the cops were protecting, I'm betting you'd want them to act sooner rather than later, too. But if you're genuinely concerned, why not just not bother to call the cops if you're ever threatened? I mean, wait and see what's going to happen before you get those trigger-happy officers involved, right?

Obviously, terrible things can happen no matter how honest the civilian with a gun or how careful the police may be. Fortunately, incidents like this are rare, and most of the time we'd find ourselves thanking the police for taking a bad guy out of the action.

I wish everyone involved a recovery from that awful night...

gavinbrooke

SamAdams...didn't you know there is no room for sensibility in this thread?  The cops are evil and  the guy that had the gun is completely innocent and without any responsibility for what happened.  Apparently you didn't get the memo.

silvereagle_1

This is and was truly a tragedy......but this is the kind of thing that can/does happen when people get a gun to settle problems.  I personally think the tenants in the other property had a fair share in what happened and they should be really proud of themselves.  The way I read it, they seem to delight in aggravating the neighbors and not giving a rat's behind who they bothered.

Mythoughtsonly

...Has anyone else read the statements of both cops? Am i reading them wrong??? or are they both kinda different??

And also the statements of the perps from that apartment?? what LOSERS

2kids

Magiclady, when  you "take a chance" on the receiving end of a gun with a bullet proof vest on then you can comment.  Until you do that you have no business to even make a statement like that.

fluffy

magiclady. Dispite wearing a bullet proof vest an officer is still volnerable. Vests don't protect against shots to the head or extremeities.

bama

Maybe Bellevueboy should become either a police officer or an instructor cause he seems to know exactly how to handle situations such as this.  Websters defines a threat as "Something that is a source of danger".  A man holding a handgun is the textbook definition of this and a small child holding a squirt gun is not. Ever wonder why the started changing the colors of those things? It's so they don't look like real guns and comparing those two senerios is comparing apples to oranges. Legally drunk with a blood alcohol of  0.13. Ever try to talk with someone who is legally intoxicated or try to get them to do what you want? Not easy. Lastly, ever been in a shootout? Ever been in a shootout in the dark? How about this way of thinking, they shot until they believed the threat was no longer a threat. It's dark, little light, the man is armed and he has now pointed a gun and is reported to have threatened to use it in the intial complaint.  I'm sure that after the 1st shot was fired they started to move for a cover spot and could not see (remember it's dark) where the bullets were hitting or not hitting. I have never met a police officer who wants to or ever wishes to use his/her firearm it is the last thing anyone of them wish to do because this is something that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives and police officers every day are faced with knowing that if they use their firearms or do not protect themselves whether with or w/o using a firearm, they will be ridiculed just like these other posts which causes them to hesitate which then causes them to be killed or injured.

bellevueboy

bama.......ur saying they handled it correctly??????? so if he was a source of danger........they still should walk up to him in the dark within distance of normal talk???????? i think not........ would they walk into the circle k if the place was being robbed and the 911 call stating there was a gun involved???????? or would they fly into the lot with the sirens and lights??????

Duhast
So, the officer with two tours of duty; Has he passed mental evaluations lately?   The way a marine responds in Iraq is way different from an average police officer. Not that I’m saying he is, but if Lawson is suffering from any sort of PTSD, his hyper vigilance would have kicked in making him think there was more of a threat that there was. It appears that  the other officer didn’t see everything due to his angle and the weeping cherry.
Jimmy G

Peace through superior fire power!

Factitious

From some of the comments, it's apparent that not every understands that the term homicide, in the context of the autopsy report. It means the subject was killed by someone, as opposed to death by disease or accident, and in this case it doesn't imply that a crime was committed.

bama

Well, bellevueboy, I am merely saying this. What makes a bigger or well aquired target? 1 standing in the dark or 1 all lighted up with the lights on.  As far as the Circle K comment, what makes better sense to pull in with all the lights on or pull up close enough to walk up, look in and see what is going on prior to taking any action? Lastly would you have preferred for someone to walk up to you talking at a normal tone or whould you rather the conversation start of by someone yelling at you?  It's called escallation. You start off low and depending on the circumstances take it up a notch if need be. It was taken up a notch when this guy pointed a gun at them. Bottomline is I feel sorry for both the officers involved the this guy but fact are facts a gun was pointed at the police and they defended themselves maybe if the officers has been shot you and the others who wished to bash these guys would feel a whole lot better. 

bellevueboy

bama.......there is a street......u do know that right?????? not saying to fly in the guys front lawn with the cruiser with sirens and lights and jump out........wether its dark or its daylight.......the approach was way wrong.....and you know it..........and 24 shots were too many.........

ragtop66

I am sure neither one of these officers never, in a million years, ever thought they would be put in the situation they were in, but they did the job the way they were trained to do it. Now, of course, they are being put down by some for doing just that.....their job.   I'm also sure Mr. David Sr. or his family never thought he would be the center of such a situation.  It is/was a horrible, horrible tragedy. Those involved will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.  Would you like to be in their shoes,especially the ones who fired the shots that killed another human being?  Yet, there are those who criticize the way it was handled.  Was there really any "right" way given the circumstances?

silvereagle_1

i betcha bellevueBOY coulda, woulda done  a whole lot better****after he changed his pants.

bellevueboy

silver..................anybody could of done a better job.....maybe even you.........after your balls drop ofcourse....

beepx22

no matter how you cut it, 24 shots fired at one person is excessive force and neither of the cops should have jobs now.  the fact that these 2 barney fifes are walking the street armed, and obviously too jumpy to be trusted scares the bejesus out of me.

magiclady

I did not mean that the cops should just stand there and take a shot. Couldn't they of  went at it a different way? why not take cover and than awaken up the man and announced who they were? I'm just saying that some cops are quick to shoot....

Bottom.line

What some of you idiots are missing are called FACTS-

1. These officers walked across a well lit street on a night with a full moon, they did not sneak up- although had they done so I would say it was the tactically correct thing to do

2. Mr. David was really drunk, a .08 will get you a DUI so guess how impared you are when your blood ach. level is .13

3. These men are well trained, verteran officers, one is a decorated soilder, and never have the two of them had to fire in the line of duty. They don't exactally qualify as "hot heads" or "mall cops" as one cop hater posted.

4. What if it had not of been the cops, but me and my seven year old son, walking our dog that startled the drunk, deaf, gun welding man on the porch?

5. When you are facing a threat, you shoot to kill- no leg shots, no arm shots, center body mass- end of story. It takes a long time for someone to actually fall down- they were justified in shooting till he fell.

6. The stories of both officers do match up, with only small, insignifigant differences. In a moment of adreniline rush, I imagine some things can be seen differently, but the basics- like the part where the man pointed a loaded weapon at an officer, are the same!

7. As for the genuis that wanted them to be shot because after all they have body armor. WOW, I cannot even validate this comment with an response- except to let you know your "stupid is showing"

8. I can assure you Lawson had to of passed a psych. evaluation, probably annually, with the military- so another mute point!

bellevueboy

ya......running and walking.......    they match.......?   lets ask bama to have webster help us with that little fact......just 1 of the things that dont match...........like drop the gun and gun.......yet another......

Sam

Bottom line, great comments nothing else is needed.  Its nice to see common sense, facts and logic used.

bama

Bellevueboy....You said in one of your posts they should have "pulled in" which would indicate to anyone that you were actually saying that they should have pulled up into this guys driveway. So you say their approach was wrong in fact you went on to say "way wrong", was it really? Like I said in my earlier post you can either become a police officer or start training them so they all know just how they should have handled it or maybe just maybe leave your name and number at the police department and since they cannot get it right according to your standards, they could call you and you can go out and handle the calls with the violent drunks and gun waiving people so no one else gets hurt.

bellevueboy

bama........ good thing you caught that....whew.......pulled up to the house/street.........not in......my bad.......deep down you know that no one would have been hurt if they would of done that......just make sense since you say he was a threat and the cops knew that......

 

Julie R.

On TV they have the cop car lights flashing and spotlights on plus the cops crouch behind the cars and talk through a bullhorn. If Mr. David was hard of hearing maybe even a better solution would have been to call his wife and inform her of the complaint they received or maybe even tell her that they were on their way to the house. I mean, if Mr. David lived in Bellevue all his life they certainly must of known that he was no criminal or anything. Once again, this is parthetic and it all started because of the low-life  trash that was obviously antagonizing the poor guy. Bunch of trash antagonizing somebody old enough to be their grandfather. Evil little dirt bags.

bobaluey

The guy was  pretty drunk  and probably pretty belligerent.   Seems the punks and the booze    got his  macho up too far. 

  It was  he alone that could have changed the actions that night.   In a neighborhood full of kids.  Why in the world would you sit on the front porch with a loaded gun ???..  like it was the  Hatfields and Mc Coys.    Geesh.

 

 

bobaluey

Another thing,  how in the he!!   are the cops suppose to know  the guy was hard of hearing??   Unless they personally knew him, well.   Most  60 year old men won't admit to being  hard of hearing.

I didn't know police  were suppose to know those things in advance.

beepx22

bobaluey it's not illegal to sit on your porch with a gun, or to carry a gun in this state.  you can carry with out a license so long as you can see the weapon, now having your weapon and being drunk is a bad match, but no trained cop, especially one trained in the military should fire a weapon that man times without checking on the situation.  2 or 3 well placed shots at close range would disable the target, emptying your magazine on 1 person leaves you in a bad place when someone else would pop. 

Always apply the rule of +1 with a hostile target, if theres one, then there's two, fire discipline and ammuntion conservation should be a major part of firearms saftey training.

Those two weren't doing proper shooting, they were spray and praying.

silvereagle_1

bellevueBOY****yer the one spouting about everything that was done wrong****mebbe next time you should be the one ta go take care of a situation.  as for gonads****don't worry about 'em.

bellevueboy

silver...........like i said before..........

bobaluey

beepx22-

You're  correct, it's not illegal.  I never said it was.    But factor in alcohol and it's pretty dangerous.   Not to mention stupid.  Thank God, he didn't shoot a neighbor kid or someone's pet.   All I'm saying is  people need to learn some common sense.    If they had a problem with this party house, why  didn't all the neighbors get together and file formal  complaints with the police, the property owner, the city and METRICH?     Instead of trying  the vigilante justice. 

That said,  I still feel bad for all involved

starryeyes83

I just think it's funny people get on here and  makes comments regarding " somone's balls"   and they don't even know for sure    what gender they are. 

 

unjudgemental

I really think that alot of people are truly trying to understand what happened that night. You people (some of you) come on here and act like you know everything. Who are you to call someone an idiot for posting their own opinion? This situation is NOT cut and dried...not for alot of people. Not that it matters to those of you in other towns, or that didn't know this family. The statements plainly say that both cops were basically hiding behind a small tree...neither one could even see him...and sorry, but when your partner is standing less than 10 feet from you and HE can't even hear what you're saying then it's not too far fetched to realize that neither could the man on the porch. The police do a dangerous job, agreed. The police are there to protect and serve, agreed. The police were in fact called there to investigate ... agreed. But that in no way shape or form should have turned into what it did. I believe, as do many residents in Bellevue that the police COULD have identified themselves ALOT better than they did. Again.....NO cop car...NO lights...NO loud announcement of officer presence...come on. The statements from the neighbor says she heard the commotion with the younger kids...that there WAS a disturbance. How was he supposed to know exactly who was coming at him with NO warning....really?? Are you all that blinded to "police wear badges so they must be right all the time" thought process??? I believe it was handled wrongly....and NOONE will ever change my mind. Call me an IDIOT til you use your last breath...I couldn't care less, really.

Salvatore

Somebody please define ACUTE ALCOHOL INTOXICATION in terms of BAC. Years ago one could drive with a BAC of under 0.10%. How many hours was the autopsy after death? The next day? What time of day? That is the question. At death, many changes go on within a body. Shortly after death, the body begins to produce ethanol as a product of decomposition. As the body begins to decompose, bacteria grows and produces ethanol by converting it from sugars in the body such as glucose. Will I get blocked and banned again because of my comments? http://www.ehow.com/about_5675437_alcohol-metabolism-after-death.html
 

44846GWP

24 shots is overkill! In Law Enforcement we are taught "tack tack", that is to fire two rounds as fast as possible. We were never taught to unload our clip, let alone two officers unloading on one suspect. These two may have been justified to shoot, but both need to go back to firearms class!

sash

Not sure what Department you've trained with? Training that I know teaches firing in double-tap or 2+1 bursts at the center mass until the threat is neutralized. And no, that doesn't mean you shoot to kill, but that you continue firing until the assailant is unable to return fire. No LEO is going to shoot twice and stop while the assailant is still mobile and capable of returning fire. Once neutralized, you secure the weapon and render aide. If you look at the Uniform Crime Report (FBI), you'll find that most police/civilian shootings occur in low light/or night with an average of 10 shots  fired with 20% accuracy(80% miss). I'm sure adrenaline and fear contribute to the number of shots and misses because LEO are human and all the training in the world doesn't make facing the wrong end of a gun easy. This isn't  the same as facing a paper target that doesn't move and can't fire back. I hope you never find yourself in this situation because if you fall into the "averages," neither of your two shots will hit the assailant and he will be returning fire. Maybe you should talk to some officers who have been involved in shootings and get their take on reality vs. book before you pass judgement.

sash

WOW! It's amazing how brave people are when the gun isn't pointed at them! A few points and facts to think about:

1)  There is no evidence AT ALL that Mr. David was asleep on the porch. I understand that his family is trying to make sense of what happened, but it is pure supposition on their part in an attempt to understand their father/ husband's actions that night. It seems  highly unlikely considering he was intimidating a neighbor with his gun minutes before and was probably still experiencing an adrenaline rush from the confrontation.

2)  Most Departments aren't going to pull up with sirens blaring in this kind of situation because it's been shown to exacerbate high stress situations. Lights, sirens and chaos kick adrenaline into high and trigger fight/or flight response. Not the reaction you want when someone has a gun. A calm approach usually produces a calm reaction.

3) The morons expecting officers to shot an arm or a leg instead of a body shot know nothing about law enforcment training or guns. Police officers are NOT trick shot artists. An officer is not going to fire his gun unless they (or others) are in imminent danger. A shot to an arm or leg, in the unlikely event the officer is an Annie Oakley sharp shooter, does NOT stop the assailant from firing his gun! The only time an officer fires is to save his own life or the life of another. This isn't a video game where you get a new life if the bad guy gets a shot off and kills you.

4) 16 shots fired by Officer Lawson and 8 shots fired by Officer Matter sounds excessive only if you know nothing about guns.According to the FBI, a novice shooter can fire 3 shots in LESS than a second with an automatic,and a trained shooter can double that. A revolver is only slightly slower. This entire shooting took place in 3-5 seconds. Once Mr. David raised his gun, the officers had the right and responsibilty to prevent him from pulling the trigger of his gun.

5) While the Register gleefully reported the various body parts struck by the bullets, they failed to note that none of the shots individually would have stopped Mr. David from firing his gun. The only possible guaranteed "stop shot" would have been the chest shot IF it was a heart shot. One second is all that was needed for Mr. David to fire up to three shots. Three shots could easily equal two dead cops.

While this shooting was tragic and my sympathy goes out to Mr. David's family, Mr. David bears the full responsibility for the outcome. If your neighbor makes you angry because they are loud, or obnoxious or doing doughnuts in your front lawn- you pick up the phone and call the police. You don't lubricate your brain with dutch courage and take a loaded gun over to your neighbors to threaten them. And you don't point a gun at anyone unless you plan to shoot and are prepared for the possibility that your victim is armed too. Police Officers take an oath to protect and serve - they do not make a suicide pact. I wonder how many of the "critics" out there would be willing to stand there and let Mr. David try to kill them? We can only be grateful that no kids decided to take a shortcut through his yard that night, or no neighbor decided to approach him to discuss his actions. These officers did what was needed to insure they made it home to their families that night. They have that right and so do their families. They deserve support and understanding, not a misinformed ignorant public passing judgement. And the officers and the community both deserve fair and balanced reporting rather than this sensationalistic garbage!

Judicator

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained personal attacks. Discussion Guidelines

Raoul Duke

How about the renting neighbors that he had the issue with-life goes on like "normal" for them.

Darkhorse

The police officers are poor shots to have fired 24 shorts at this guy.  They need some regular target practice.  You don't need 15 to 24 shots to bring a guy down.

Bottom.line

 Sash, wonderful well thoughout comments. I wish more sane people like!! you would comment. magiclady, we heard you the first time and we still have no idea what you are talking about. julier why not just have the cops wear blinking targets on thier chests? and did you really suggest they called ahead to tell the drunk man with the gun that they were enroute? Plus the place the officers parked was a few houses away from the davids, why move the cars to walk thiry feet? i have nothing against people having opinions, as long as they are logical and reasonable.

Marine Sgt.

 Before I comment I want to state that I have only read the witness statements made public and the statements by both Officers. Although I feel the shooting was just. I do have a problem with just a couple issues. First, the subject had been having problems with his neighbors on another street and that is the direction the officers came from on foot ,in the dark  only with flashlights. I feel that at least one officer should have driven his car around the block to make his presence well known. Second,it wasn`t stated if the officers had their flashlight in the subjects eyes or not.  Third, as a Marine having been in the same situation many times I can say that it doesn`t take 24 shots to bring a person down at close range if you are trained. Even if you are hyped up.   Now to explain what I see....the dead guy had a confrontation with some trouble makers on the next street over earlier in the day.    Now he is sitting on HIS front porch when two guys come up from the same direction as the trouble makers..in the dark...with guns in their hands.  The surround him and blind him with flashlights. The man is half deaf and he hears the guys start yelling at him.  Even if he hadn`t been drinking,who is to say the outcome would have turned out any different?  I am not defending him. I am just putting myself in his shoes. Drinking and guns NEVER go together!!

 Now about the officers actions.  Having done 2 tours on Iraq,this officer should have had better control of his actions. These are very close to the situations we work in every day there. As a Marine,he has  had more extensive training in these situations than most police officers here in the U.S. get.  In my view,the way they went about this situation was just short of an ambush and  the outcome was already in place when they decided to sneak up on the subject the way they did.  These two police officers should have better control of where they are placing their rounds when shooting at someones home. 24 rounds is in my view excessive from such a close range and to have 9 round miss the target means there could have been 9 innocent people killed including children.

 Please don`t get me wrong. I am not defending either side and I not am condeming either side. The whole thing could have been handled differently and a senseless death could have been avoided.   And,between tours,I have worked in law enforcement on the west coast,so I do have a good understanding of how things work and how fast situations can change. But there is a right way and a wrong way to go about things.  I feel bad for EVERYBODY involved.  I just hope everybody learns something from this. 

EZOB

   I'm not commenting on this situation but veterans returning from combat.  Studies have proved that upon returning home, combat veterans likely miss that adrenalin rush.  It's like an addictive drug and many veterans have marital problems and problems adapting to civilian life.  I really believe that the last job a combat veteran should apply for is some type of police work.  Shoot first--and answer questions later.

   Now I'll comment.  The guy was on his own front porch.  What "IF" the dispatcher would have called the house to ask if everyone would leave.  Now the guy is on his own front porch, talk to him on a phone, cell phone, bull horn.  Why go up to any armed person knowing they aren't using good judgement??  Keep a safe distance and try talking the guy off the porch and drop the gun.   All this said I wasn't there.  Put me in front of the guy and I would have dropped him also, 12 GA. Double 00 Buckshot.  I would have saved a coupe rounds or had another clip in my hand in case another armed person ran out the door.

dont blame me

So where's the video they speak of ? Why would you present to the grand jury without of ALL the evidence.  And keep in mind the grand jury does not "clear" anyone, they either indict or don't indict based on the evidence they are given or not given.

milan man

First off i agree with many comment on this blog. I cant say what i would have done in the situation. But i can say that with the guy being deaf and seeing two people with flashlights come from the same direction as people he had trouble with would tend to put anyone in a panic state. As far as police go this is sad. I am an a war vet who has seen combat. You fire 24 shots from close range all over the place. How can you consider yourself trained if your that poor of a shot. First thats poor shooting. Glad i can defend myself. second it does not take that many shots. the police could have shot him and allowed a situation where he lived. And most important what if any of the missed shots would have went into a window and killed this mans wife, children or an innocent person.  But of course any investigation with law enforcement would be a cover up. I mean look at the surrounding departments. Bellevue is now in the spotlight. Sandusky has sex offender police officers and cookie crooks. Perkins has all kinds of problems including the ex chief being crooked. What is going on. And they wonder why there is no respect for law enforcement in this area. Please clean house while there is still time.

Judicator

thats alot of bullets

Salvatore

Here is what is written in Cordray's BCI report. I am going to break my comments up into several comments since my comments get deleted so much. Some of you self rightious, know it all, better than thou people don't like my comments and then have my comments deleted and have me banned.  I have read all of the legal summaries and I see a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions. I expect that a civil lawsuit will commence. One thing about telling the truth is that you never have to remember what you said before. Put yourself into Mr.David's position here. From the PROSECUTOR'S SUMMARY. James Armstrong indicated Mr. David was seen brandishing a gun on HIS porch. Armstrong indicated that as he approached the porch of Mr. David, Mr. David cocked his pistol and put it behind his back. Armstrong also indicated that he approached with TWO cars and NUMEROUS people in those cars that had parked in front of Mr. David's home.

This sounds to me like a bunch of thugs trying to intimidate and cause panic to Mr. David. Think about two cars with numerous people parking in front of your home and confronting you. Why wasn't Armstrong charged with at least a inducing panic charge? He admitted that he did this. If Armstrong could take two cars with numerous people to park in front of Mr. David's home. why couldn't police do the same thing and park the squad car with overhead lights turned on or approach Mr. David's porch from down the street with lights, yelps of the siren and even use the load speaker of the squad car? I will post all of the inconsistencies and contradictions of the police officers statements later.

 

silvereagle_1

BOY****don't matter how far your balls drop****don't make ya a MAN****made YOU what's called "nothin' but a MOUTH". 

Raoul Duke

Sad.

man4451

He sure had a QUICK death, ME, I had a massive HEART Attack laid in the ER, not going to say which one, for 9 hours before getting something DONE, massive DAMAGE to the heart, Then A Doctor put a two wire pacemaker in, he said I needed a three wire, but at the time, I didn't know there was a difference between a 3,4,5,6 wire, but the doctor did. Used the ER many times untill a GOOD Doctor took out the TWO wire and the Good doctor put a three wire in, BUT the new doctor says, to much damage done, TO LATE, I may walk up to 50 100 so feet, then sometimes its the Fight for my LIFE, to stay alive. No matter what the good doctors do, its just to much damage. THEN the COUNTY builds  STATION  across the ROAD few yoers ago  and FLOODS my land, I get a LETTER stating I HAVE TO DIG a 450 DiTcH, why should I have to DIG this DITCH, I had no problems untill this BUILDING showed up. My house is completely damaged, it sinks, cracks in the walls, ceiling, joints, pipes cracks at the sweat joints, fec'es comes out of one of the pipes, I fixed many times, it keeps craciking. AND MY leach bed backs up alot when it rains. I recorded DUCKS and Geese in the back yard because of so much rain run off. My window cracked, my heat goes out the roof. Lawyers cost to much. THIS county STOLE my BUCKET LIST, and they could care LESS. Then the COUNTY calls the STATE to dig a ditch to MAKE THINGS WORSE, My HEALTH, I don't see if I'm lucky, a couple more years. EVEN the meds are beginning to NOT work.

THE county engineer knows exactly who I am.

GhostRider

To: mann4451....What does that have to do with this story???     At least YOU are alive to have problems with the city/county.  

Bailey

from SASH's very first post I knew he was some type of law enforcement, always standing by thier buddies who seldom have to be accountable.

In my view it was murder by being DUMB on duty. I don't care if they are decorated vets, all the more reason for the hard core attitude. A normal person would have difficulty returning to work after putting an entire clip into someone, but not these guys. Glad I don't live in that town.

Now, go ahead and trash my beliefs and ignore the fact that these cops were SLOPPY and a man is dead because of it. Two Rambos with guns

unjudgemental

Savatore...it sounds like you really understand what most of Bellevue does as well. Obviously bottom.line and Sash must be cops. Who will defend these "cops" until the end. The concerns you have posted are the tip of the iceburg for most of us here in Bellevue, there aren't too many people who think the cops are justified at all in MURDERING an innocent man who was sitting ON HIS OWN PORCH!! So,...he had a few beers, big deal. And like someone else has stated, they left him lay there for over 6 hours, the whole time the alcohol content rising d/t death. Now people wanna come on here and call him drunk, belligerant and deaf? Like I said earlier, the one cop stated he couldn't even make out what his partner was saying, then when you read the report the officer who supposedly introduced himself was in fact hidden by a tree, in the dark until Jim SUPPOSEDLY got up and went toward the door??? So...how do you clearly identify yourself from behind a tree that blocks your own view of the man? (said himself in the interview with the BCI) ... I guess before people comment they should read the reports/interviews. They have put it right there in black and white...all of the non matching statements and the way the snuck up on him. Which is exactly what they did. They act like he was some crazed man "brandishing" a gun all over the neighborhood...give me a break!!! The punks along with the cops killed this man with NO GOOD REASON!!!  I look forward to reading your following posts...I'm glad someone on here is making some sense!!!

starryeyes83

See... this is why   cops need helmet cams ( or some other kind of video recording device).

 

Isn't it ironic, that  the people in the party house ( SPENCER, ARMSTRONG, JORDAN) that the guy was having trouble with  all moved to Norwalk and Sandusky. Isn't it ironic that about three weeks after this, that same bunch  were busted for driving around Sandusky  and shooting out of a pick up truck.

Makes you wonder....

bye bye Bellevue

Look, when a police officer tells you to drop your weapon, stop etc.   JUST LISTEN people!  I do not fault the cops in any way for their actions. THEY are law enforcement, you are not! This is one of the first lessons we all SHOULD have learned, listen to authority. 

beepx22

yeah because authority is always right, and just.

I mean look at how that worked for the germans in the 30's and 40's, the russians all through the 20th century, the iraqis, the... well you get the point.

America is set up so that we don't have to always listen to authority, that keeps our throats out from under the boot.

Granted if a cop tells you to drop your weapon, you should, just to stay alive, but a trained cop shouldn't pull the trigger 16 times either.

asdferdf

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained profanity. Discussion Guidelines

silvereagle_1

re; beep****ya don't have to pull the trigger 16 times if it's an automatic.

ragtop66

So many comments about what was done wrong, what should have be done, tadatadatada.  The fact of the matter is the only ones who know what actually happened are those that were there. All the comments in the world is not going to change the outcome of this tragedy, and we  are not the ones who have to live with it for the rest of our lives. I'm certain the officers did not go on this call with the intention of killing someone, just as I'm sure Mr. David Sr. did not expect to get killed when he took his gun outside the home.

Cross

Ragtop, the idea here wouldn't be to change the past but to prevent the wild west police shoot down that occured from happening again.

If you shoot a man once, he's pretty likely not to survive. If you shoot a man 15 times with a 40 caliber, he's going to die instantly.

The main point that has been brought up again and again was why were so many shots fired? I and others have law enforcement experience and we are perplexed. We agree that force was justified, but it appears the Bellevue police can't handle a 60 year old man who did not fire a shot without completely unloading both their weapons at point blank range. Any way you slice it, that's excessive force.

They shot the guy through HIS BUTTOCKS. Please explain that to me. Did they fear some bad gas, and had to shoot those last 5 or so bullets EACH to ensure no harm would come from his posterior to them?

You are right, we do not know what happened. It is why we need a camera on officers at all times. They have way too much power and need much more accountability, especially given how many bad eggs there are out there.

 

Truth or Dare

E-X-C-E-S-S-I-V-E;  24 shots fired IN THE DARK @ one man, 15 RIPPING THROUGH HIS BODY and 9 going stray into the porch and house!  Guess it's a pretty darn good thing none of those bullets hit anyone that may of been inside the home?!   Pretty sure however if they had, the BCI wouldn've been able to justify that as well, right?  By the way, who investigates our  Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation, the FEDS?   

I know one thing, if I lived in Bellevue and needed a police officer for whatever reason, I would exercise my rights and  specify when calling; DO  NOT SEND EITHER ONE OF THESE OFFICERS TO MY HOME, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! 

Still  believe police brutality/excessive force can't exist within law enforcement?  Pick up the Toledo Blade  from Fri. ll/19 for an example right on the front page,  and read about the Sherriff  (elected to his position in the late 80's))  who'se believed to of withheld info. during a Fed. investigation, as well lied about it,   who is arrogantly standing trial for his part in the 2004 cover-up of the  homicide/ murder of a county inmate who was completely shackled/restrained,  yet put into a choke-hold which resulted in his death.  Happened right here in Ohio folks. I guess it was okay though, right?  After all, he managed to find/put himself there for whatever reason, eh, and at their mercy!  

Bottom.line

 I am surely not a cop, and after all the cop hating taking place here i dont know why anyone would want to be. But I am an educated reasonable man, and I do not like people on this blog speaking for all of Belleuve. The only people I have heard saying the police made miistakes fall into oneof three categories. The first group are friends and family of the victim. Right now they are hurt and angry and looking for answers and someone to blame. In time I think they will come to terms with things,at least I pray they will. The second group is the low lifes who have spent a lot of time getting in trouble and never are responible for thier own actions.  They blame the cops for everthing, no matter what. The third group is the monday morning quarter backs who think they could of done it better.  The fact is until you are in that situation how could you know what you would do. I bet these guys have  been on dozens of calls just like this and you have never heard about it. Do you know why? Because they are sucessful at difusing the situation; they are good at thier jobs. As far as the number of shots fired and people telling them to go back to firearms training, i ask you how often you personally have employed that training? My guess is never. You shoot till they fall or the gun is out of the targets reach and you are no longer in danger. I reallyt dont understand the debate anyway, what is the difference if they shot four shots and killed him or shot sixteen shots and killed him? Its the same outcome. So why the outrage? Im sorry for the family, I really am. However I beleive in something called  personal responsibility!

Salvatore

I am reading the transcripts. Matter claims he could not hear the "introduction" of Lawson identifying himself (Lawson) as a police officer but Matter claims to have heard Lawson yell out "drop the gun" after Mr. David turned around and approached Lawson. The transcripts are not clear if the order to "drop the gun" was said once or twice. Reading further I see that Matter says "drop the gun" and then BANG. If Matter could not hear Lawson's introduction as a police officer, how could Mr. David? I question why a so called "independent" investigator like BROKAMP would say "Okay, I'll back ya" to Lawson during the interview. This statement by BROKAMP does not seen "neutral" to me. It sounds to me like BROKAMP is going to help out Lawson during the interview. Also I question the (few words inaudible) by BROKAMP. Lawson stated that Armstrong "is known to be kind of an aggressor".   Lawson stated that he identified himself to Mr. David. "My name is Officer Lawson, Bellevue Police Department, I'm responding to a call of" but later Lawson claims he said "Good evening sir, Officer Lawson, Bellevue Police Department". My question is which introduction by Lawson is correct? Matter claims Lawson yelled "drop the gun" but Lawson says he yelled "Gun" and fired. Who is telling the truth here? I want to add that there are good cops, bad cops and incompetent cops. Later.

beepx22

silver, I don't think a cop would be carrying a glock 18, which is automatic, most police carry the G19, or the .40 cal equiv, which are semi- you obviously don't know much about guns, if he was shooting a G18 then he was over equipped for the job at hand.  so yes unless a G18, or an uzi, he had to pull the trigger 16 times.

even if by some odd chance he did have the G18, he should still know fire control, thats a very basic skill to learn, even for someone who isn't a LEO or Military

Bottom.line

 I see we have moved on the the splitting hairs phase of the investigation. Get a life people, but first tell me did you ask for cream and sugar or sugar and cream in your coffee this morning? You better get it right or I will call you a liar!

ragtop66

Re: Cross.....I made a simple comment and opinion. I didn't expect to get racked over the coals for it.  I personally don't think it was very smart of Mr. David Sr., being under the influence, to take a loaded gun outside with the situation such as it was.  If he was having trouble with the tenants on Greenwood, the obvious thing would have been to call the police, not grab a gun.

Cross

Ragtop, no doubt and I'm sorry if my post came out antagonistic. Mr David was certainly at fault. That said, from my experience and just from the reports, it looks like the cops used excessive force to me. I wonder if he needed to die?

If the police had driven up with flashing lights and made sure they announced themselves loudly perhaps this could have been avoided. It's certainly easy to monday morning quarterback it after the fact, especially as the gun wasn't pointed at us, but it's right to question when police shoot a man, period.

There is no law against sitting on ones porch with a gun. The cops entered his property. They should have the responsibility to ensure he is completely aware of their presence, and if he makes a threatening move appropriate force should be used. Half drunk wobbling geezers should not require the cops to call in an air strike. :)

Video is cheap. Every cop in America should have a cam on them. It'd also be a great form of money making as half the channels out there seem to show 'Cops' and other shows like that.

silvereagle_1

re; beep****had no idea what type of guns they had, just made an observation.

Bottom.line

 That is incorrect cross, it is 100% illegal to be in possesion of a firearm if you have had a drink,let alone six or seven. Plus you claim to have a tactical background yet you feel they should of announced themselves in the open which is the total opposite of the tactial approach. The thugs across the street may of been obnoxious, but last time I checked the way right way to deal with an obnoxious neighbor did not include getting your gun.

Cross

So, you expect SWAT team tactical approaches for neighborhood complaints? Wow.

Common sense says if you know someone has a gun you do the exact opposite, and ensure he knows you are there, and isn't startled. That is unless you want to surprize them and howitzer them down.

I personally find it ironic we treat Al Qaeda in Afghanistan with more respect than we do old retired vets on their own porch.

Forgive me if I have more respect for a man on his own property. They gunned him down on his porch in the dark.

beepx22

silver... my appologies for jumping the gun there, no pun intended.

 

starryeyes83

I didn't ask for cream or sugar in my coffee. this morning.

I made it myself, with a coffeepot and everything.

 

Just trying  to lighten the mood a bit.   

P.S.  Remind me to never become a  police officer,  out in the field,  you're always damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Sad.

Salvatore

Mr. David had six or seven drinks? Where is that information from?

Police Negligence. Think about it. Many cases out there where police used unnecessary deadly force. Many cases out there where police raid the wrong house, kill innocent people and then say it was "unfortunate" that the victim died and then try to blame the victim. Police Negligence. Think about it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI9ahGxMfk&feature=related
BANG!!!!! OOOPS!!!! UNFORTUNATE!!!  Some of you might think that the guy on the ground deserved to be shot at.

Here's a video where thugs shoot a Texas Trooper. Those thugs should have been shot on the spot. Too bad that this cop didn't have a back up. Police do have a very dangerous job. http://blutube.policeone.com/media/4115-Dashcam-footage-of-officer-being-shot

starryeyes83

That info came from his wife. 

GhostRider

  I don`t know how I would have reacted if I had been having trouble with some thugs on the next street over during the day. Then while sitting on my own front porch,snoozing,I awaken to  have 2 guys dressed in dark outerware ,come out of the dark with guns in their hands,flashlights in my eyes, sneeking up to me. Looking around and NOT seeing any police cars anywhere would have made me think these were NOT good guys coming to visit me and I never would expect the police to come sneeking up in the dark unanounced . Like I said, I wasn`t there and have only read official reports.  With the way the world is now,I am always on guard anyways. And then now reading that the same thugs that started this ordeal moved to Sandusky and Norwalk and have been in trouble involving guns,I tend to think that the old guy wasn`t  over reacting when he sat on his porch with his gun. Another question I have is this..When a crime is commited involving a gun and someone it shot and killed, Isn`t everybody involved charged? Even if it is a bad guy killed? I really think that the thugs who started this whole situation should be charged with SOMETHING. I have a few friends that are cops and have been for a long time. I have a LOT of respect for a cop that does his job with honor and respect for people. A cop that is out there to serve and protect EVERYBODY.  But I hate have NO respect for the jerk that became a cop to be a bad a$$ and give people a hard time. Ones that are only doing it to bust people and show how tuff they THINK they are. Those are the cops that have an  ..us against them type of thinking. We all know the cops that fit that description. And we know cops that are good cops that do their job and are fair to EVERYBODY.  No matter who you are,your reputation will come into play some time in your life and that is what makes the differance between having bystanders help you out .or having them join in kicking you down.  I can understand all sides of this issue, and I think  "Marine Sgt." said it the best in his previous post. 

Bottom.line

 Show me a cop that doesnt always use a tactical approach on every call and I will bet he will be dead five years into his career. Even when they have simple traffic stops  they have one hand on the weapon on the approach because even that sweet lil old lady they just pulled over could pull a fast one on them. The police cars were less than thirty yards from the shooting, maybe you should look at a map and consider the logic in moving the cars a few feet. What if Mr. David had snapped and was holding his wife or a child hostage? The cops dont know what they are walking into. There was a standoff just a year or so ago where that guy killed his wife and himself. I bet he was a nice guy too, but for some reason he snapped. They did what they had to do. As far as these men getting into police work for a power trip, you got it all wrong. Yeah some on the force did, there are a few on the force who are real full of themselves. These too are far from it. They are good fair men!

Cross

www.youtube.com/watch

I think I understand your point about tactical training and civilian interaction know how. I'll even share a video of how you think it should be.

silvereagle_1

re; beep**** thanks****in a day and age that people just HATE to admit they may have done or said somethin' wrong, you have renewed my belief in that there are still some good joes out there.

Bottom.line

 Cross I do not find anything about your comment amusing. When you question the integrity of two good men who work for peanuts to keep us safe and you make jokes at thier expense I find it sickening. Unless you are ready to lay your life down for the sake of strangers, i would sugesst you not be so quick to judge.

Cross

Anytime a man is killed there should be many questions. I suggest you not be so quick to say everything is ok in this case, and analyse things yourself outside of just saying the cops sure have a dangerous job.

A man died, and you say we should be more worried about the cops integrity? No, my friend I disagree wholeheartedly. We need to question whether he had to die and whether what they did was acceptable. The focus should be on did he have to be shot at 24 times? What if it was your Dad there? I think few people are judging, but we are discussing as it should be.

I was poking fun at you because you have yet to address the issue of these cops emptying their guns into a man who never fired a shot, including shooting him through the buttocks. Most people in this thread seem to think excessive force was used. 

When someone is shot in our community it should be evaluated thoroughly. This isn't a speeding ticket, these guys killed this man. I find it funny you bring up their need to lay down their lives for another. Obviously they weren't ready to lay their own lives down, but they sure were in a hurry to lay his down, which is the crux of the problem, not to mention the amount of bullets that went into the house behind him. That sure doesn't seem safe to me!

In my opinion their job is to try and find peaceful resolutions and to serve and protect. If a pair of cops empties their barrel in execution fashion into a man, then they should expect heavy scrutiny from their peers and their town. I personally wouldn't mind if this was looked at from the federal level since it appears the review that took place at the Ohio state level was a joke.

Here is my issue and I'll simplify it even further for you: they shot him in the bottom, Bottom.line. That's my bottom line. 

 

Salvatore

That BCI investigation is a joke. Read all of the documents that the register provided. Some of you people are posting "facts" that completely differ from the BCI documents of the investigation. Since some you are posting your own facts, then is the BCI investigation a big fairy tale?  That Liske thug who killed his dad, step mom and step brother has a schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type. Bipolar. According to the BCI investigation report page 20 of the 94 page document, Armstrong is bipolar, can't read or write, received Social Security Disability, takes medications for his mental conditions and does not work. He has also been referred to as an aggressor. That Liske thug was also an aggressor. If that Armstrong thug lived next to me with his aggressive and bipolar nature, I would be carrying my gun with me all of the time. No telling what an aggressive, bipolar thug could do to me. Of course this aggressive, bipolar thug would not like the idea that I am trying to protect myself with my gun just in case he goes ballistic. Armstrong decided to call the cops on me because I am sitting on my porch and the cops sneak up on me. The cops could have called my home or better yet park in front of my home, turn their overhead lights on and give a couple of yelps with their siren or even use the cruiser's loud speaker. Instead, they park far away because they don't want me to know they are there. If it was dark, they would also turn off their headlights while approaching far away because they wanted to sneak up on me and not give me any clues that they were in the area. They sneak up and scare me, yell "GUN" and then BANG! BANG! BANG! .......... It is my fault that I was killed by the police on my own porch. UNFORTUNATE. Anyone can plainly see that here is a good case of POLICE NEGLIGENCE. The thugs get to live another day. Check out the criminal records of those thugs. I feel that a couple of these thugs are posting comments here. Bring it on and attack me or try to get me blocked and banned again.
 

beepx22

I know this much bottom line, If i have to use my firearm in self defense, to protect myself, my family, or even strangers, and i fire at once person 16 times (in my case 12 time i suppose to run my weapon empty)  I'm probably losing my gun, my right to CCW, and my freedom, due to excessive deadly force.  If they expect someone with no formal training to fire three times, break off the engagement, check their surroundings, and stay at high ready while they clear the area for other threats, then I don't think it's too much to ask of LEO's to do the same thing.

If i empty my magazine on someone that i've hit in the Head, Chest, Guts, then i've gone too far.

If i do that firing into a house, then I would have no situation awareness.

Bottom line is, even if they where right in shooting, instead of using less lethal means (Taser, Rubber Slugs from the Shotgun most cruisers carry, ect ect.)  They still lost their cool, and some kind of emotion over took their training leading them to fire 24 combined times, and they probably don't need to be on the street beat.

Julie R.

I found it sickening that the cops took the word of a bunch of trouble-making thugs and ended up gunning down a 61-year-old man on his own front porch. I found it sickening that this man was shot 15 times. I found it sickening that 9 of those 24 bullets went through the house and could very well have killed somebody else. 

silvereagle_1

 sorry, i don't call 68,311.00 peanuts, leastways not in my book.  course i realize that's cheap pay for puttin' your life on the line every day, so don'y everybody get their knickers in a knot an' lambast me on this one.

Truth or Dare

Hey Bottom; Please understand this, this story makes me sick to my stomache!   If my post gave the impression I "hate" cops, don't respect their job,  I apologize as that couldn't be further from the truth.  As for falling within the 3 categories you mentioned, family & friends, being a low-life who'se been arrested,  always in trouble, or an armchair quarterback who thinks they could've done the job better, I would fall into the latter category,  AS WOULD MANY PEOPLE!   We all here seem to have our own opinions, now don't we!  Not only should the public  REASONABLEY QUESTION such things and not be afraid to do so, we have a right and a duty to, do we not?!  Or,  is that just one more right, the questioning of authority and it's actions, or lack-thereof, been taken away?.  You're telling me this situation couldn't of been diffused in a much less VIOLENT MANNER, and is of  no more importance to this family, the Public as a whole in getting it right,  than whether or not someone takes their coffee w/cream n sugar, just cream, just sugar or has it straight up black and ya best get it right?! !  

You speak of being an educated man, of everyone's PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY..    That goes both ways sir!  These two officers will have to live with the fact that they responded/reacted the way they did,  the affects it's  had on Mr. David, his family & friends, you know, those who knew and loved him best,  the community at large, and not just Bellevue!  You don't thinkt that quite a few people have probably lost a whole lotta trust in these two as well others?   Hopefully at some point in time it will be regained!  You  can continue to pretend all you want that mistakes aren't made, justify/explain away all you want the existance of police brutality/excessive force!  That's what they refer too as DENIAL!     "An unjust law, is no law at all"! 

My heart and prayers go  out to Mr. David's family and friends, as well these two officers and their families. 

 

Bottom.line

I am ok with people asking questions and seeking amswers but I am not ok with people cop bashing, or vauge generalzations. Does it really matter if he said good evening vs. hello? I mean either way he annouunced himself. I bet if you survey100 cops about99 of them would do things the same way these two did. There was no malice and no intent on thier part. However i have to wonder what Mr. Davids intent was. To protect himself from lound music with a gun? Its sad all the way around, but these men do not deserve the nastiness being flung at them. 

unjudgemental

Sure...he announced himself. From behind a small tree which obstructed his view of the VICTIM (per his own statement) AND ... not even loud enough for his partner to hear what he said (per his partners statement) The distance between the officers being right around 10 feet, kinda hard to believe he made it loud and clear which he also said in the statement that he did. Mr. Matter's interview states that he was pretty sure Mr. David didn't even know he was there. So...to question this...it's our right. To get the truth ... well, that's a different story. 

Sam

Intoxicated individual with a gun, a tragedy waiting to happen. My question where was his family, why did they allow his actions, why didn't they do something?  One call from the family to the police might have avoided this tragedy. For all the critics of the police, have you ever faced down an intoxicated suspect?  How many of the critics would sit on their front porch after heavy drinking with a gun?  This was a no win situation.

Julie R.

One simple call from the police to Mr. David's wife might have avoided this tragedy, also. At least then he might have known it was the police standing behind a tree and not the dirt bags coming back to harass him. One would think the police would have wanted to get a handle on what was going on, anyway, before taking the word of some trouble-making thugs and ambushing the poor guy on his own front porch.

Salvatore

Think about this. This is a scenario. I am driving at night in Bellevue and my car breaks down. I have a CCW license and I am carrying my weapon. My car breaks down about half a block from Mr. David's home. I need someone to call a wrecker to have my car towed and no phone available. I can see a man (Mr. David) on the front porch and figure that I would go over and ask him to call a wrecker for me. Now I am completely unaware that Mr. David had problems with two car loads of thugs that stopped in front of his house earlier. I am also unaware that he might have a gun, something that the police were told. As I approach Mr. David's porch, I shine my flashlight at him and say "Good evening sir, my car broke ......." but Mr. David got up and ran for the front door. But he turns around and comes back at me and raises a gun ( as shown in the BCI documents ) but I yell out "GUN" and quickly unload my 17 round 9MM into him. He falls to his knees but I am still shooting, even shooting him in the buttocks. I fired off all 17 shots and did not reload. Mr. David never fired off a round. My question to all you better than thou, know it alls, and always right people and to the legal experts (buff). Will the grand jury bring criminal charges against me such as murder. man slaughter or other charges? I feared for my life, shot and killed a man. Think about it. Will I be charged?

Oy Sam! How many times have the Bellevue PD been made aware of the thugs and "aggressor" Armstrong? If you have answers to this tragedy, please provide them. BTW, would I be charged if I was the one that shot and killed Mr. David?

Sam

 Sally, Armstrong might be a thug or aggressor but how does that relate to Mr. David being intoxicated with a gun?   Was there any evidence that Armstrong or any of his friends ever threaten Mr. David with a gun,  if so I never read that fact.  Mr. David choose to be intoxicated and turned towards another person with a gun.  In this situation what would you have done Sally?  The wrong choice on your part makes you the subject of the coroners report.  Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. 

professor

If you fear for your life , that threat is legitimate and imminent and you can articulate it, that is clearly self defense.

You have made several comments that Mr. David was sleeping...How do you know that? I cannot find it anywhere in the documents.

BAM272

its unbelievable that the actual autopsy report has been made public!  how i feel for this family.  Is there not a shred of dignity for this man even in death?  shame on the lucas county coroner for putting information out there, and shame on the register for publishing a link to it.  there are confidentiality standards and the general public does not need access to that information, only the agencies and people involved in the case.  SHAME SHAME

Salvatore

Define intoxicated in terms of BAC. What was Mr. David's BAC at the moment of death? How long did Mr. David's body lay on the porch? How many hours? Do know that when one dies, the body begins to produce ethanol by bacterial action on the sugars in the body such as glucose. If I recall, the autopsy began the next day on a warm body. Thugs do not need a gun to threaten bodily harm to anyone. Bad enough that an aggressive bipolar thug intimidates someone but what do you call two car loads of thugs in front of your house? Many cases where thugs beat people to death or kill without a gun. So Sam, would I be charged as I mentioned earlier?
 

Salvatore

Professor, I pose the same question to you. Would I be charged if I did the shooting?

professor

Again...If the threat was there and you feared for your life...How or why would you be charged?

dont blame me

Does anyone really think encountering an armed individual is some new concept for area law enforcement.  In fact, area law enforcement officers have been disarming them peacefully for years, you just hardly read about it because it doesn’t make the news.  How you ask, by using their experience and common sense, something that is lacking in today’s officers.  Unfortunately for the David’s, they are about to experience the results of “POOR” investigation and the good ole boy system of politics.  And to answer your question Salvatore, you’d be indicted.

Salvatore

Professor, How about a bunch of police breaking down your door at night and you fear for your life because you have no idea that they were police. You shoot because you fear for your life. You kill a policeman. You are charged with murder. True story.

Salvatore

Of course I would be charged and in jail with my picture in the newspaper. I would be facing a life sentence.

beepx22

Salvatore, you'd be charged because of excessive deadly force.  We can only shoot to end the threat, if you keep shooting after than it would be a manslaughter charge at the least. or that's the way it seems to go.

of course if your first couple of shots werr a killingshot, thats a different story, but if you emptied the magazine with out a pause in firing,

Julie R.

A special grand jury convened Tuesday and affirmed the state's ruling, opting not to charge Lawson or Matter...........................

The Cleveland Plain Dealer's nine month investigation into the quality of justice in Cuyahoga County. *Part 3: Grand Juries: Gatekeepers or open doors? 

* A grand jury in Ohio determines whether someone should be charged based on the evidence prosecutors present in closed-door hearings. The testimony from police and other witnesses last just minutes.  A grand jury seldom balks at the prosecutor's recommendations. A grand jury is no longer an independent panel but a working arm of the prosecutor's office. Thomas Dilliard, a former U.S. Attorney, is one of the country's top critics of the grand jury system: "The single most important fact to appreciate about the grand jury system is that it is the prosecutor who calls the shots and dominates the entire process. Grand juries have become little more than window dressing."

Woody Hayes

@Juliebeth:

A Cleveland Plain Dealer report on Cuyahoga County Grand Jury has what bearing on Sandusky County Grand Jury? Do you live in Bellevue? (God, I hope not). Do you live in Sandusky County? No, you and the rest of the tin foil hat troop just want to keep banging the drum on a sad situation that had a bad ending. Things went wrong that proably shouldn't have, I agree. But the bottom line is that it did, we can learn from mistakes made and move on.  

Sam

Sally, the best we can do is to agree to disagree.  My sincere hope is that you will never be forced to make the same decision in the same time frame the officers were forced to.

Bottom.line

 It doesnt say he was sleeping anywhere. People looking to make sense of his actions assume he was. I on the otherhand dont buy it. If he was so intimidated moments before then he wouldnt be sleeping he would be viligant. I know some of ya are still up in arms over the number of shots but I can say that I would pull the trigger till i knew the man with the gun wasnt gonna fire it at me. These two have handled many calls like this in the same manner and they always ended peacefully. Mr.David tooke the cw class so he knew what to do, he made bad choices instead.

barkerb23

But why would they shoot 16 TIMES!?!? just shoot his arm + leg and take him down!!!

Salvatore

Bottom.line says "These two have handled many calls like this in the same manner and they always ended peacefully."    MANY CASES? They did? When? Please state your facts. Be specific. Or are you making up the facts as you go along?

Salvatore

In looking for additional information about this shooting, I am reading the Bellevue Gazette. According to the Gazette, "A woman who investigators say was one of the witnesses the night James David Sr. was shot and killed by two Bellevue Police Officers, was sentenced to jail and fined for not meeting with investigators. Spencer has a lengthy record with Bellevue Police. She has been arrested 10 times from 2005-2010 for charges such as theft, domestic violence, trespassing and criminal damaging."  http://www.expositornews.com/BEL/spencer

CANADA49er

 This act was so inhumane. My condolences go out to the family.  This sounds like an act of terror against a normal human being.  I do not think this man was a threat or a terror, but it sure sounds like local law has gotten way out of hand.  What if the dude was waving a cap gun or a squirt gun?  Thats been know to happen!!! Anyways, there was no reason for this act.  It is about time citizens fight for their rights.  There is too much police force anymore, not just here, but everywhere.  This so, so sad.  The dude just retired from a long, hard working life.  Maybe the police should have checked out the neighborhood first ....they could have used other force, not deadly to calm down the situation.  

Salvatore

From the Bellevue Gazette. "The autopsy report indicates the bullets entered through David's check, neck, shoulder, arm, chest, abdomen and buttocks. Toxicology tests put David's blood-alcohol level at 0.13 percent, and there were no other substances in his system when he died. The coroner's report listed, under significant conditions, "acute alcohol intoxication." In the BCI&I report, David's wife, Karen, said she and her husband had visited a club and golf course earlier in the day and he had consumed a few beers, but she did not feel he was intoxicated." http://www.expositornews.com/BEL/autopsy

Also from the same BG story "According to reports, Bellevue Police received a call from a resident in an apartment complex in the 200 block of Greenwood Heights, reporting a man in the neighborhood brandishing a gun at them after AFTER THEY had apparently bothered him."

Also "David's wife told investigators her husband had a hearing problem. David's family has said they think he may have fallen asleep on the porch and the officers might have startled him as they approached in the dark. The family feels David, who had been APPROACHED EARLIER in the evening by the group who eventually called police, may have thought those people were coming back to cause him harm."       

Somebody please define "acute alcohol intoxication" in terms of BAC. Please note the the human body shortly after death will start to produce ethanol within the body.

starryeyes83

Right,  time to move on and  clean UP Bellevue.  Too much trash  and gangsta thugs starting to move in.   East and West sides ,  North and South sides.  Time to move  run the riff raff out of town.   Because if  it isn't done now,  you will lose that town in the next two to three years.  And it will be just like Sandusky.    Do any of you  Bellevue residents want that?

Julie R.

Once again Woody, stop fiegning ignorance. That Cleveland Plain Dealer report Part 3 about Grand Juries isn't just about Cuyahoga County----it's about the whole state of Ohio. So the next time we hear how a "special grand jury cleared somebody of all charges" what they really mean is the prosecutor's office did.   

Salvatore

Julie posted some very interesting information about grand juries and Thomas Dilliard, a former U.S. Attorney. It a 5 part investigative report about grand juries and how they can be manipulated by the prosecutor. I think that buff once said that a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich. So if a prosecutor can indict an individual with little or false evidence, then a prosecutor could hold back evidence from a grand jury so a certain person is not indicted. Window Dressing? http://www.cleveland.com/rule-29/index.ssf/2010/11/presumed_guilty_prosecutions_w_8.html  I love when newspapers do investigative reporting on questionable practices by the government and the courts.

"With no judge or opposing counsel in the room, grand jurors naturally defer to the prosecutor since he is the most knowledgeable official on the scene. Indeed, the single most important fact to appreciate about the grand jury system is that it is the prosecutor who calls the shots and dominates the entire process. The grand jurors have become little more than window dressing." http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-476es.html

""[t]he grand jury is the total captive of the prosecutor, who, if he is candid, will concede that he can indict anybody, at any time, for almost anything before any grand jury."  http://2009transition.org/criminaljustice/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=8 

So if a prosecutor could convince a grand jury to indict an innocent ham sandwich, the prosecutor could also convince a grand jury not to indict certain people. Window Dressing. Or sweeping under the rug?

Woody Hayes

No Juliebeth, the only ignorance is you and the rest of the tin foil hat club beating a dead horse to death. With your history of hatered of courts, judges, attorneys, banks, ect, this story will keep comming up over and over because you don't want it to end. Such a sorry life.

Julie R.

Hey Woody, as I recall you and boonodog were the ones that started it right after I asked a very simple question as to how a grand jury is picked. Didn't you attack calling me ignorant and saying I wear a tin foil hat? Wasn't my fault (but you have to admit it was funny)  that the very next day the Plain Dealer came out with the results of a nine month investigation into the justice system and Part 3 is all about grand juries and how they are not being used the way the Constitution intended.  As the former U.S. Attorney General W. Thomas Dillard said:

"The single most important fact to appreciate about the grand jury system is that it is the prosecutor that calls the shots and dominates the whole process. Grand juries have become little more than window dressing." 

Woody Hayes

Last comment to you because you don't care to listen to anyone but yourself, but it was suggested to you to look up grand jury on Goggle and it would give you an excellent discription of what, who and how of a grand jury, but then again, you know everything so why should I tell you anything. I have a fire hydrant out front, I think I'll go to talk to it. 

dont blame me

Now you guys are starting to get it about grand juries.  The prosecutor is completely in control and the investigators only tell the grand jury what they want them to hear.  Many grand jury members are intimated by the entire process and so most just sit there, say nothing and go along with what is suggested to them by the prosecutor.  Personally I’d like to see a runaway grand jury in cases involving law enforcement officers but that’s not going to happen.         

TOPGUN01

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THEY MAKE A GOOD COP JOE LEROUX GIVE UP HIS JOB BECAUSE HE KICKED A BAD GUY FOR NOT SHOWING HIS HANDS TO SEE IF HE WAS CARRING A GUN!!!AND THESE COPS EMPTY THERE GUNS ON A MAN??ANDTHEY GET AWAY WITH THIS ??I THINK JOE LEROUX SHOULD RUN FOR CHIEF!!OR SHERIFF!!

Sam

TOPGUN!, Joe LeRoux is a embarrassment to every good law enforcement officer.. You can't justify kicking or in any way assaulting a prone suspect at any time.  I congratulate the officer who turned him in.