Gun group offers training for Utah teachers

Jessica Fiveash sees nothing wrong with arming teachers. She's one herself, and learned Thursday how to safely use her 9 mm Ruger with a laser sight.
Associated Press
Dec 30, 2012

 

"If we have the ability to stop something, we should do it," said the elementary school teacher, who along with nearly 200 other teachers in Utah took six hours of free gun training offered by the state's leading gun lobby.

It is among the latest efforts to arm or train teachers to confront assailants after a gunman killed his mother and then went on a rampage through Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., killing 20 children and six adults before killing himself.

In Ohio, a firearms group said it was launching a test program in tactical firearms training for 24 teachers. In Arizona, the attorney general is proposing a change to state law that would allow an educator in each school to carry a gun.

The moves to train teachers come after the National Rifle Association proposed placing an armed officer at each of the nation's schools, though some schools already have police officers. Parents and educators have questioned how safe the proposal would keep kids and whether it would be economically feasible.

Some educators say it is dangerous to allow guns on campus. Among the potential dangers they point to are teachers being overpowered for their weapons or students getting them and accidentally or purposely shooting classmates.

"It's a terrible idea," said Carol Lear, a chief lawyer for the Utah Office of Education. "It's a horrible, terrible, no-good, rotten idea."

Kristen Rand, the legislative director for the Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy organization, said to believe that a "teacher would be successful in stopping someone who has made the decision to engage in a shootout is just not rationale."

"No teacher is ever going to be as effective as a trained law enforcement officer," Rand said. Even trained police officers don't always hit their targets, and arming teachers could put innocent students at risk of crossfire, she said.

Gun-rights advocates say teachers can act more quickly than law enforcement in the critical first few minutes to protect children from the kind of deadly shooting that took place in Connecticut. They emphasized the importance of reacting appropriately under pressure.

"We're not suggesting that teachers roam the halls" looking for an armed intruder, said Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council, the state's biggest gun lobby. "They should lock down the classroom. But a gun is one more option if the shooter" breaks into a classroom.

The group waived its $50 fee for the training. Instruction featured plastic guns and emphasized that people facing deadly threats should announce or show their gun and take cover before trying to shoot. They cautioned teachers about the liability that comes with packing a gun in public.

"It's going to be a hassle. It's another responsibility. You can't just leave your gun lying around," Aposhian said. "Not for a minute."

The teachers at the basic gun training applied for a concealed-weapons permit, submitting fingerprints and a mug shot for a criminal background check. The class kicked off as an instructor in the "psychology of mass violence" offered various tactics to disrupt an assailant.

The first, the instructor said, was to start with the command: "Stop right there!"

"I wouldn't hesitate to shoot if the danger was immediate," said Fiveash, adding that her laser sight would make shooting in tight quarters safer.

English teacher Kevin Leatherbarrow said he often felt threatened while working at an inner-city school in Buffalo, N.Y., where he got a license to carry a pistol. He moved less than a year ago to Utah, where he feels safer. But he said gun violence can break out anywhere.

Leatherbarrow said he was highly trained in handling guns — and was taking criticism from parents who don't appreciate his views on school safety.

"I'm in agreement not everybody should be carrying firearms in school. They're not trained. But for some parents to think we're cowboys, that frustrates me," he said. "I wish parents would understand."

In the U.S., the number of homicides at schools of children, ages 5-18, have been lower year-by-year in the 2000s than they were in the mid- to late-1990s, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics report on school crime released in 2012. At 32 deaths, the 2006-2007 school year was the only one that reached the levels from the 1990s. The manner of death was not listed.

Utah is among a few states that let people carry licensed concealed weapons into public schools without exception, the National Conference of State Legislatures says in a 2012 compendium of state gun laws.

Utah educators say they would ban guns if they could, but legislators left them with no choice. State law forbids schools, districts or college campuses from imposing their own gun restrictions.

Educators say they have no way of knowing how many teachers are armed. Gun-rights advocates estimate 1 percent of Utah teachers, or 240, are licensed to carry concealed weapons. It's not known how many do so at school.

"I never felt threatened in 14 years of teaching, but I don't think you can be too prepared," said Tiffany Parry, a dance teacher in the Salt Lake City suburb of Sandy who applied for Thursday for a license to carry a concealed gun. "I think it could come in handy."

 

Comments

MrSandusky

The Register must be low on their hit count. Otherwise why would they post news that other outlets had on Thursday on a topic like this? You are correct, to generate comments and anger among the commenters. All the while driving up their hit count so that they can tell their advertisers how many hits this site gets. Next look for some generic story on Obama and the fiscal cliff. Sadly, I added increased their numbers by clicking on this link...

Nothing generates return views and comments like stories about guns or politics. Sadly, it also brings out the nut-jobs on both sides as well.

KnuckleDragger

This really isn't news. Utah has been doing this for about 15 yrs. In fact Utah and Kansas are the only two states that allow ccw in schools. Guess what folks, the proof is on the pudding, not a single school shooting in either of these states. Having lived for nearly a decade in Utah, I can tell you that quite a few teachers and administrators carry and the vast majority of parents polled in that state have no problem with it. What a bunch of liberal blissninny's in Ohio think about what goes on there isn't gonna change anything.

buckeye15

You can always cherry pick facts to try to make your case. You have chosen the one that says that out of over 25,000 teachers in Utah, there are an estimated 240 of them strapping, and that has prevented any school shootings.

I could choose some other facts that make just as good a case for the lack of school shootings. Maybe it is the fact that over 60% of the population is Mormon. Oh wait, I know why there are no school shootings in Utah. It is because Utah is #1 in online pornography consumption! All the crazies are so mellowed out from watching all that porn that they have no desire to shoot up a school. Yeah, thats it.

My facts are just as valid as yours.

Bluto

So in these states that allow ccw's in public schools , a person who has a ccw and is not employed by the school can walk right in without any problem ? I don't know , seems like a can of worms to me . What about non-lethal weapons ?

The Big Dog's back

We will have the shootout at the OK Corral. Who cares about Collateral damage.

KnuckleDragger

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained Personal attacks (including: name calling, presumption of guilt or guilt by association, insensitivity, or picking fights).

The Big Dog's back

Shooting at a range is totally different than shooting a person.

KnuckleDragger

o let's use your logic and apply it to police and military. Both learn by practicing firearms tactics on a range. Please give us an arbitrary number of REAL kills that they should have before being permitted to enter a school with a firearm? Using your logic (or lack the thereof) you should have a number in mind. Now go ahead and whine to the mods so you can have this post removed.

The Big Dog's back

The military are trained killers. Police are in a totally different situation than a teacher.

Dr. Information

Show up to my house and try to break in and I'll show you real quick how a non military person could kill real easy, with no remorse. I know many people, teachers, that faced with potential death could point and shoot to protect them and their kids in their classroom.

Bluto

You'll shoot your eye out , kid ; )))))

dontcare

Ok,tough guy, you are the best argument against guns.

Dr. Information

Did I hurt your feelings? What, now you liberals are telling me I can't protect my home against a thief? Oh wow, you guys, you just can't win with you. Like talking to a wall.

I know a lot of people who post that would be a good argument for abortion...hummmmmmmmmmm

beepx22

you people have been saying this for as long as i can remember and it's never happened. quit getting your history from movies and do some research, and educate yourself, i know it's easier to spout useless information and made up tidbits, but you only hurt your cause.

KnuckleDragger

What can of worms would that be? As I said of above, this is nothing new in Utah. Anyone with a CCW can carry a handgun into a school, and teachers are permitted to carry on their person at work. It has been this way for 15 yrs and not a single incident of a school shooting or a CCW holder shooting an inoccent bystander. The facts go completely against big dogs theory. In fact, the gun homicide rates in states that have the strictest gun control laws are routinely the highest in the nation. Those are the facts, feel free to look them up.

sanduskysteve

Why should we look up your "facts" when you ignore our "facts"? Two countries with the strictest gun control laws have eliminated all mass killings. I have posted this in several stories here and the posts get ignored by the mentally unstable gun owners and NRA supporters. Stop spouting off useless NRA non-facts and pay attention to what's going on around you. Both Australia and Japan did it right and it's working. Before you start about China once again - there is a huge difference between guns and knives. And Japan outlawed swords as well. With some exceptions, of course.

vicariouslyAlive

so 23 people dead in china with the same gun control laws in japan... i do think that's relevant.

and what's the difference between mass murder and singular murder other than the numbers? 23 people dead in one instance and 23 people dead in 23 instances are still 23 people dead...

and no, a tool used to kill someone is just that, a tool. whether it be a knife, a sword, a gun, or a guitar string, if it's used to kill someone it can't be left out of the discussion...

i really fail to see how you can blindly and blithely say the facts can count in one area and not the other... it's quite hilarious really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osa...

the above link, because i know you don't like to read logic for yourself, is about a mass shooting in japan in 2001, and others that happened in recent history... so again... you have no idea what you're talking about.

sanduskysteve

I never mentioned China in my post. You never answered anything other than some more stupidity. Let's use your logic - 23 people killed in one instance is the same as 23 people killed independently. You are right - but that is only a good comparison if there was only ONE mass killing here in the US.

dengopher

You should move to Japan or Australia if It's so much better and quit trying to trample on my rights. One day some body with a ccw may save your life.

dontcare

It's far more likely someone with a ccw with accidentally kill themselves, the gun will be used by a family member for suicide, or the attacker will use your gun against you. I know that would never happen to you, your far to tough for that but everyone else, Im talking about.

SamAdams

You are SO totally right, Sanduskysteve! Without guns, mass killings just don't happen. In fact, I thank the gods every day that Timothy McVeigh didn't have a nasty assault rifle in his hands so that little children or innocent workers wouldn't die when he and his partner went off their mental rails!

dontcare

they were gun nuts too.

sanduskysteve

As far as I know, McVeigh was the only on ethat used that method. So, that's 1 to --- what? How many with guns?? Stop comparing apples to oranges.

DEEPsix's picture
DEEPsix

The SR needS to add a photo of former MILITARY personnel who are now TEACHERS and have urban warfare training... NOT A PICTURE OF SOME HOUSEWIFE, TEACHERS AIDE HOLDING A GUN!!! More than 35% of all teachers who will receive certs to carry in Utah schools HAVE SERVED ACTIVE DUTY, IN LAST TEN YRS... SO, post the real story.

Bluto

Maybe if she had it cocked sideways GANGSTA style everyone would feel better about arming teachers . ; )))))

KnuckleDragger

Lol. They probably would considering holding it in that manner increases the odds of the shooter not hitting anything.

Bluto

Don't get me wrong , I have nothing against people being allowed to ccw . I just don't think it would work everywhere in the U.S. My question has always been , why does the average citizen need to have anti-personnel weaponry ? If those types of weapons weren't available to the general population ,these horrible tragedies wouldn't happen in the first place. Come on ! If you design and make a weapon to kill multiple people,quickly and then sell them to the public , isn't that just asking for these incidents to happen ?

KnuckleDragger

During the years of the first assault weapon ban, the number of mass shootings was significantly more than we've had in the years since the ban expired.

sanduskysteve

Proof please.

Dr. Information

Not significantly but they did go up. Realize that rifles are used the least in gun violence.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/...

sanduskysteve

Absolutely, anything FNC says MUST be right. They were spot on when Obama won the election. Their ratings are dropping like flies as well as the radio jerks behind them. finally people might be waking up. I think it is more like the GOP is falling apart right before their eyes.

arnmcrmn

@sanduskysteve. Well I just googled this and your comment is actually totally wrong. As of Jan 3rd, Fox News leads darn near every category and every time slot in ratings. Also, if you read the link Dr. provided, Fox News obtained its numbers from other sources, and links are provided in the reading.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com...

Mr Bean

Amazing, seems those people in Utah are smarter than we thought---240 armed teachers, huh, not likely to be any Newtown type incidents there. How about Kennesaw, Georgia? 25 years without a firearm death*,[strange] grown from 3,000 to 20,000 during that time,[strange], 25 years with a law on the books which REQUIRES that every household have a firearm, and be trained to use it responsibility, [strange].

* No murders, no intruder shootings, no accidental,[strange]

Bluto

I just looked at Kennesaw , Ga website and their crime stats and have come to the conclusion that they ain't no Mayberry .

goofus

So it has come down to comparing a town in today's society to a mythical town on TV from fifty years ago????? So sad, so very sad!!!

Bluto

Yes , it is sad to make Kennesaw Ga. sound like perfect town USA when it's not .

goofus

Not sad, every town has crime you want to compare Sandusky's track record with gun related crime versus Kennesaw's

sanduskysteve

Hmmmm - so you believe that as long as the number of killings by gun is lower, then it's acceptable? We are still above Japan close to 1000 to 1. Why is that? We are thousands of times bigger than Japan?? Don't think that's going to fly with me either.

SamAdams

Yes, and statistically speaking, Japan is WAY ahead of us in suicides. Why? Culture, culture culture. I'd also note that when Canada instituted strict gun laws, the suicide rate didn't change. At all. The METHOD of suicide changed, but not the numbers. In short, it ain't the guns. It's the man or woman pulling the trigger.

Meanwhile, although people can kill themselves by jumping off a high place or taking too many pills, it's super hard to force a home invader to do those things! A gun in the hands of a good guy (or gal) continues to be the only equalizer when it comes to an attack by somebody who's armed, or who's just a lot bigger and stronger (and often more desperate) than you are!

Bluto

I was replying to Mr Bean 's comment about Kennesaw Ga . No comparisons to Sandusky were ever issued . And my point WAS that ALL towns have crime . Read all the comments and don't just pick and choose , please .

goofus

You were not, you were trying to discredit his post, please reread his post. A typical liberal ploy. Mr. Bean never said that Kennesaw wasn't free of crime, just gun related!!!!

Bluto

Yes , I was checking facts . A Liberal ploy the rightwingers have little use for ; ooooo !!!

dontcare

It appears goofus has uncovered a liberal conspiracy here in the posts. Goofus, do you think it's government related?

justsayno

Wow if you want to defend your students you should be allowed to carry! Proper traing background checks equals possibly saving the life of your child. I believe guns should be carried in school and on buses.

Bluto

I agree , with Big Dog , this isn't range shooting . If a teacher is busy doing their job and suddenly someone bursts into the room and starts spraying the class with bullets , who do you think they are going to aim at first ,logically speaking ? The teacher . With the element of surprise , just how many seconds does this teacher have to react and pull their gun , or cross the room to a more then likely locked drawer and retrieve their weapon , if they don't have it on them ? Unless they are pointing the gun at the assailant as they are coming through the door , it will still be a massacre .

goofus

Pretty gruesome scenario, even from a liberal. However the fact that a student knows that the teacher is armed might be a deterrent from you liberal gruesome event from happening. An armed teacher is not meant to be a Rambo type person but to get a student to think of the consequences.

Bluto

Would you prefer a sugar coated version where the teacher jumps through the air in slow motion , firing off perfect shots while doves fly across background explosions ? What do you think this is , a John Woo movie ? By the way, who says that the assailant has to be a student?

goofus

Once again you fantasize about an evil scenario. By the way who is John Woo?? LOL

Bluto

Evil scenarios , that have come to pass . John Woo , director , famous for his stylish action movies like Mission Impossible 2 , and Face Off . Now you know.

goofus

So you admit movies are alot to blame in the recent shootings!
Excuse me for chuckling, but I never heard of John Woo.

Bluto

Movies , games , the stock market , the weather , or just waking up on the wrong side of the bed . Who knows ? We all have our breaking points.

Dr. Information

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained Personal attacks (including: name calling, presumption of guilt or guilt by association, insensitivity, or picking fights).

Bluto

Who said all the weapons circulating in America are of American design or origin? You sure like to run with it don't you Doc . Heck , you can go on the internet a see how to convert some weapons to full auto . And no it isn't the weapons fault . I have said I believe in the right to protect one 's self , but apparently missed that comment .

sanduskysteve

Sounds like a great plan - just train them better than the cops - I understand there were two cops firing at 2 dogs getting closer to them while they were firing and they only managed to hit one of them and instead hit a bystander in the foot. No this was not SPD this time, but the same thing applies. Take a look at how well Cleveland cops can shoot. What was it now, 137 shots fired and only a couple hit their target?? It's a wonder someone else standing nearby didn't get hit by one of those as well. I'm not sure guns belong in schools - and certainly not sure cops should have them there.

beepx22

again statistically more likely to be shot accidentally by cop than CCWer. Glad you agree

OMG.LOL.WT_

Two Utah students did plot to blow up a school though.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/...

goofus

Sounds like at least one teenager had good parenting!!! How many plots are uncovered daily oh know it all liberal????

beepx22

just because i'm obviously a better researcher than these loons at the register... this is also being offered in Ohio... http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/n... and i say good. now if we can get them to let teachers carry in Ohio things might turn out better if this ever happens again.

goofus

OBAMA TO GO FOR GUNS
'THERE WILL BE RESISTANCE' And people wonder why gun sales are going through the roof with some companies backordering some popular models!!!! People aren't stupid, they might have thought that this is america and Obozo deserves a second chance, but you don't go for my guns!!!!

Bluto

WOW !! Talk about fantasizing evil scenarios !!! 8 P )))

KURTje

From the photo - Its so big!

Blowfish

Where is the teacher going to keep the gun? I guarantee a significant number of guns would be stolen from teachers every year. Most teachers would not stand a chance against an armed shooter no matter what the teacher was carrying. Tactics teens learn from playing MW3 would give a well trained SWAT team a tough time. The teacher must go on offense during an attack and become a killer.

goofus

So we are admitting video games are part of the problem???

vicariouslyAlive

Shakespeare has been taught in classrooms for hundreds of years now... as well as greek and roman mythology, the Iliad, and Christian theology for thousands of years... in each of these teaching there is mass murders, genocide, child killing, mutilation, torture, homosexuality, brutality, and countless other frowned upon things in modern society... and you guys are trying to blame video games with their 30 year run against the titans of wrath and carnage which is ever major religion for the violence in schools? and what's worse is you people are trying to get these things to be put back into the school arena? i could sit here for hours spouting off about how god is the single largest mass murder in history and how this teaching has been around for thousands of years, but im going to leave it at the killing of all of the first born children of egypt... this story displays child killing in the most blatant of ways... and yet you're going to try to blame a style of video games that's only been around for near a decade? get real people...

if we blame video games for their violence we have to also look at the bible and many other works of fiction that also pertain to violence.

when a person blames video games because they turned out to be a violent idiot, it's a blame the society thing... but when someone blames the bible for being an idiot, that person is just seen as an idiot... how can this be?

Dr. Information

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained Remarks that discriminate based on age, race, religion, disability, etc..

goofus

And now Facebook is censoring !!!!
http://www.naturalnews.com/03848...

OMG.LOL.WT_

Just to check this out, I posted it. It is still there!

Centauri

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/...
"Following is a summary of the 2013 legislation:
Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
120 specifically-named firearms;
Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one or more military characteristics; and
Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds."

http://www.naturalnews.com/03848...
"The proposed new law by Feinstein would:

• Outlaw all AR-15s and anything resembling an "assault rifle," including .22LR varmint rifles.

• Outlaw ALL semi-automatic rifles, period.

• Outlaws nearly all handguns.

• Allow you to own "permanently disabled weapons." That's your new Second Amendment right under the tyranny of the federal government.

• Massive funding expansion of the ATF to conduct raids on gun owners, during which the plan is to have the government murder and / or arrest and imprison all gun owners.

• Outlawing the domestic manufacture of nearly all firearms, further gutting the U.S. economy and costing hundreds of thousands of jobs lost while our freedoms are gutted.

• Outlawing all magazines over 10 rounds, instantly turning tens of millions of Americans into felony criminals.

• Require nationwide registration of all guns and gun owners, complete with fingerprinting (to build a federal database of all gun owners) and a certification from your local police chief who must vouch for you being "allowed" to own a weapon."

sanduskysteve

Most of this is trash talk from the NRA - especially the ATF raiding and murdering gun owners - come on people. And the 2nd amendment has been read over and over by myself and I found nothing that gives an absolute guarantee of the type of guns you are allowed to possess. I'm not sure that all 22 hunting rifles have magazines (clips) on them. My grandfather's hunting 22 did not.

beepx22

actually no, anyone who knows anything about firearms can make these deductions from reading the liner notes available on Her website. And since you've been over the 2nd Amendment so much you'll notice that it mentions hunting not once.

here i'll help.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

let's break this down.

A well regulated militia: When written the word regulated meant nothing more than organized. Militias where in large privately formed entities, Self trained, self supplied, Self armed.

being necessary to the security of a free state: Here we find the belief that a well armed populace is important to the freedom of the state, from enemies external and internal

the right of the people: No where in the Founding documents does the world people appear that it doesn't apply individually to the Citizenry of the country, this doesn't apply to the Military, the Nat'l Guard, or anything besides the People of the country.

to keep and bear arms: To own and possess weapons.

Shall not be infringed: should not be acted upon.

See also Supreme court decisions in our favor, and the Militia act of 1792, which i suggest you read. but if you're an able bodied man, between 17 and 45, guess what bub, you're in the Militia.

dontcare

At that time we had just been through a revolution with England, fighting a war on our turf. Of course none of this should be considered.

Dr. Information

@ Steve....it's says nowhere in there that certain guns should be banned! Read the words, you are trying to make concrete out of pudding.

sanduskysteve

Actually your comprehension is off a little - I did NOT say that at all - wha tI said is that there was no place in the amendment that says what guns you have the right to have. This is not an absolute right as is any of the amendments - there can be exceptions unless it is spelled out in the amendment specifically prohibiting exceptions.

beepx22

No to mention they say where would they get the money to put an armed guard in schools, but they don't seem to worry about where the money to enforce these policies would come from, plus you know that police aren't going to try and confiscate anything en masse, and neither will the military

SamAdams

Add to that some other proposed legislation I've seen which, along with a laundry list of banned weapons, includes a paragraph that states "...and any other firearm deemed by the Attorney General to have no legitimate sporting purpose," and you can see why so many fear the Second Amendment is about to be effectively nullified!

Centauri

"have one or more military characteristics" Interesting as in having sights, a stock for example? You have to watch these types of words and phrases that are put into a law.

KURTje

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained Personal attacks (including: name calling, presumption of guilt or guilt by association, insensitivity, or picking fights).

Dr. Information

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained Personal attacks (including: name calling, presumption of guilt or guilt by association, insensitivity, or picking fights).

The Big Dog's back

Yeah, some people spout right wing stuff thinking they are serious, but really are being Comedians.

Dr. Information

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained Personal attacks (including: name calling, presumption of guilt or guilt by association, insensitivity, or picking fights).

Dr. Information

Kurt you aren't a comedian. Stop trying to be funny. Moderators keep deleting this. Oh we'll. must be slow at the Sandumpy Refluctor.

Centauri

http://www.infowars.com/petition...
"The Constitution was written to restrain the government. No amendment is more important for this purpose than the 2nd amendment. The 2nd amendment was written so the power could be kept with the citizenry in the face of a tyrannical government."

sanduskysteve

The 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights -

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I'm sorry I see nothing in there about attacking the government - I see nothing about the types of arms - although there are some history professors who believe that the personal arms were not to include those which were specifically made for the military. There were also many many supreme court cases surrounding this issue. The only one that supports the NRA's view is the most recent one. And that judge had previously stated the complete opposite view. Of course, it is also believed that that judge receives kick-backs from the gun manufacturers and the NRA (same difference anyway). There is nothing about restraining our government and I found nothing to even mentioned such a thing. There is mention in some of the founders papers about tyrannical governments trying to take over our government. And, of course, this would be a natural concern in the 1700's. Where do we go now? The crap about Obama trying to take away your guns is BS and most of you know it - however, eliminating the easy access to guns and eliminating certain types of guns, I do not believe infringes on the bill of rights since it doesn't specify the types of guns you are entitled to bear or keep. Of course, the only guns then were muzzle loaders. Trust me I have no problem with you guys having those.

vicariouslyAlive

i believe the "security of a free state" is the part where it's talking about standing up against a corrupt government there chief...

and that whole part about not infringing on the rights to bare arms doesnt exactly regulate what arms we are allowed to bare... to technically our current law structure is already infringing on our rights if you want to get really technical...

SamAdams

Haven't read much history, have you? Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Madison ALL wrote further clarifications on the Second Amendment, including the fact that the "militia" is defined as "all able-bodied" citizens. They all spoke and wrote excellent English, so there's no excuse for your failure to understand. Unless, of course, it's deliberate...

The Big Dog's back

sam, you got Jefferson's quote a little twisted, not that you would do that purposely. I'll help you.
"[The] governor [is] constitutionally the commander of the militia of the State, that is to say, of every man in it able to bear arms." --Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1811.

SamAdams

Uh, I didn't quote Jefferson. But I can if you like:

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" from The Thomas Jefferson Papers

Or, perhaps more apropos to the current gun-grabber call for "sensible" gun laws:

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” Thomas Jefferson, partially quoting Cesare Beccaria

Bluto

By " All able-bodied citizens " they probably meant white male , landowners . No Blacks , or women . Kinda dated you think ? Shouldn't our laws appropriately grow and change with the times ?

Centauri

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/fein...
"I know the sense of helplessness that people feel. I know the urge to arm yourself because that's what I did. I was trained in firearms. I walked to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon and I made the determination if somebody was going to try and take me out, I was going to take them with me."

Centauri

http://tinyurl.com/aj5mnos
"In 2010, Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) joined NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre for the grand opening of the Clark County Shooting Park and praised guns for their protective and recreational use."

thinktwice

Now this is a move in the right direction. Also, once she gets the hang of it she'll love her new sport! She'll never look back and be one of those "psycho's" out there surfing cheaper than dirt for the latest bulk ammo sale!

Bluto

I think they might be enjoying themselves a bit too much with that gun . They look like they have some sex face going on there ; )))))

vicariouslyAlive

the idea behind all of this isn't the fact that the teachers WILL do something in the event of a shoot out, it's the IDEA that since EVERYONE has the ability to carry a weapon in that area now assailants have to consider possibly beings shot back at.

look at all of the places that have been shot up... all of those places were no carry zones, so the shooters didn't need to be shot back at until the cops arrived... at which point most of them commit suicide right before the cops can get to them and right after their rampage... giving teachers the gun isn't so they will use them, it's to put the fear of being shot at by would be assailants..

just take a look at texas as a prime example of what happens when you give every citizen the right to carry a weapon... rapes, robberies, and muggings dropped drastically because every thug in the state now has to worry about the grandma that they were planning on stealing a purse from could possible be carrying a firearm...

some people really amaze me... just because someone carries a gun that doesnt automatically mean that they are going to use it... some police officers go their entire 30 year carrier without ever having to draw their weapon... it's because everyone knows that every cop has a gun, so most times it never reaches that point... do you think all of those people nabbed for drugs on the turnpike are done at gun point? absolutely not. do you think every domestic violence is met by officers with guns at the ready? not every time... it's because of the idea of a gun, not so much of the effectiveness of the shooter...

it's a great idea. the idea of a gun on premises makes people think twice about doing something stupid when someone could just as easily point a gun right back.

sanduskysteve

People in texas are the worse people to have guns due to unregulated gun laws - I take for instance the famous "Stand Your Ground" laws. You are more likely to get shot because someone just doesn't like you there and in Florida where in both of these states the SYG shootings have increased drastically recently. Play your stereo too loud and you'll get shot. And the police in Texas are no better than the citizens and terrorists. Look who they have been shooting recently. For instance the double-amputee in a corner in a wheelchair who can't walk was shot and killed because the cops were afraid of a pen he was waiving with one arm. For God sake - three cops were there - one of them couldn't have just tipped the wheelchair over and then cuffed him?? I certainly would not use Texas as an example of good people having guns when even the cops are bad people with guns there. They don't worry much about shooting people there, other than t he SYG laws or cops, who can shoot whoever they want - because they have immediate death penalty there. Most other states don't have that deterrent. In fact, in many states you don't even get life in prison for killing someone and you're out in no time killing more people. I would agree to using something like that as a deterrent - but don't see it happening either.

vicariouslyAlive

again... you post something based on here-say and little fact, if any at all... you seem to like to stretch the truth... "play your radio too loud and you'll get shot." you sound like a media hypester... be honest, even you have to admit that was a bit too far to sound remotely rational.

when you compare the violent crime rates from before they started to deregulate guns from after, there is a significant decrease in crime percentages... look them up yourself. yes, there are cops over stepping their lines, but that goes on everywhere... for christ sakes just look at the perkins and sandusky police departments and you'll see two prime examples of a circus side show. so your example of how bad the texas cops are is an irrelevant counter argument... hell, even in cleveland those cops chased those people down and shot them dead, and they were unarmed... so im failing to see how deregulated gun laws causes such activity when the same stuff happens everywhere... like i said... irrational counter argument..

and like i said above, when most of these mass murderers are planning on committing suicide before the cops can get to them, what's an instant death penalty going to do to scare them away? i'll answer that one for you in a logical and well thought out response that you can feel free to copy and past... the law wont do a darn thing.

and at any rate, the syg laws are the same as the protect the castle laws in ohio, you have to show the use of threatening force by the opposing party before you can shoot... so again... you base your assumptions on faulty information, and thus try to poison logical argument with irrational nonsense.

sit back down and enjoy your time in the peanut gallery.

sanduskysteve

Funny - someone in Texas was shot for playing their music too loud and the shooter recorded it and kept saying he was going to shoot him in self defense. To the best of my knowledge, this guy has yet to be charged. I'm not exaggerating about the cops shooting the man in the wheelchair either. Nice try though.

And you are wrong about the SYG laws. You don't have to do anything - not even run away. Ohio has no such laws. After the main threat is passed, you cannot shot in Ohio - you can in Tx and Fl and where else those stupid laws are. I wasn't using the police inability to shoot or shooting the wrong people as any example of what the law will do to help. I was using that example in defense that teachers should be trained to shoot and carry into schools with small children around. My point was that if the cops can't shoot after their training - you can bet the teachers won't be much better if at all. And I believe I mentioned Cleveland incident in my previous post you replied to. Your kind just can't answer the basic questions that have been asked over and over. And I'm not going to ask them again. YOu just proved that you are not listening or reading what is going on in other places.

vicariouslyAlive

"to the best of my knowledge" is a very suspect phrase coming from you at this point. i bet if you do a bit more digging on that bogus story you'll find that the guy doing the shooting is sitting in jail.

and again, these mass shooting don't happen out side of gun shops and police stations for a reason. the idea of other guns firing back. where you find unarmed civilians you'll find carnage. where you find well armed civilians, you tend to see less of it. last i checked there hasnt been a mass shooting at a firing range, gun club, police station, or gun store... would you please care to explain this? because i'd love to hear your explanation of how these places where guns are more prevalent have a lower fatality rate than the places where guns are strictly prohibited.

Dr. Information

Out if the top ten safest cities to live in, Texas has two of the safest cities to live in, in 2012.

OMG.LOL.WT_

"Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater."

-- Peter Venetoklis
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
- George Washington

sanduskysteve

You quote should not be in quotes as it is not a quote from G Washington. Not sure where you found the part following the word disciplined - but I found the actual quote -

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies."
- George Washington

It would appear that your version actually wasn't even correct up to the word disciplined. Unfortunately, I generally do look things up even if I don't quote them online - I usually know what I'm talking about before spouting off at the mouth. The actual quote doesn't say anything about fighting against the government or having sufficient arms and ammunition.

OMG.LOL.WT_

Who appointed you arbiter of the truth of quotes found on the internet?

sanduskysteve

Nobody - but if you're going to try and prove a point by quoting someone - please quote them completely and the whole quote.

vicariouslyAlive

sanduskysteve...

http://reno.craigslist.org/rnr/3...

the above like is a photo with the paraphrased quote, which was broken down from the vernacular of the time the G.W. spoke into the form of english we speak today. verbatim, the quotes are the same, just spoken in two forms of the same language... differences like this occure over time... this is known as a change in vernacular... so, as you may be splitting hairs on this one, they mean the same thing. i.e., "sufficient arms and ammunition" means, "their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies." the only difference is the way it was said.

promote manufactories = making a sufficient amount. military supplies = arms and ammunition. to end a uniform and well-digested plan = to end tyranny or unlawful act, in the case the government... so you see... again you find yourself at the short end off a less than spectacular education...

beepx22

Moderators have removed this comment because it contained Personal attacks (including: name calling, presumption of guilt or guilt by association, insensitivity, or picking fights).

sanduskysteve

Hmmm - I see your point. I also see that you left out a couple of details in your translation.

render them independent of others - independent of those used for civilian use... particularly military - I'd say this absolutely distinguishes civilian use arms from military use arms and although this isn't in the second amendment - it IS in this quote from George Washington. He was primarily trying to get the manufacturers to make sure they are manufacturing arms and ammunition specifically for military use so they would have them for future wars - such as the War of 1812 - which the military ran out of exactly those items and caused several battles to be lost including the burning of the white house in, I believe it was 1814. Further reading of this letter/document from G Washington - it specified the size of the lead ball which would be required for military use.
There was obviously some intent that military weapons would be different from civilian weapons even then.

vicariouslyAlive

steve... when the topic is referring to the government, the word independent in that statement is referring to the independence from said government... you got those ones switched up smart guy.

and no... the statement was taken to ensure the rights of safety for the civilian, not the suppression of the civilian. to make sure that not all of the guns and ammo were manufacture by the government but also by the populace to ensure that both sides were equally armed to ensure that fair and equal treatment would sustain. the balance of power is what that passage was about... try to spin your lies else where... you're proving the fool left and right here bud... you should have stopped a while ago..

sanduskysteve

guns and amo are not manufacturered by the government - not that I am aware - they have specs set for everyday manufacturers to follow. hence a separation of the two classes of weapons and ammo.

Kimo

Cops in Cleveland shot two unarmed people involved in a car chase. 126 rounds were fired. Put those same cops in a school?

Being able to pass a ccw course doesn't mean a boost in IQ.

beepx22

137 actually,

sanduskysteve

Thanks, that was my point.

luvblues2

Just knowing that someone is/can be armed is not a clean bill of health. It is meant as a deterrent and not a cure all. What part of that is not evident?

Kimo

Re: "Just knowing that someone is/can be armed is not a clean bill of health"

It's the mental health part that concerns me. If you took all the people that are a "half a bubble off" out of CCW circle there would only be half of the number left.

Besides, like I said b4, the cows are out, millions of guns in circulation will not disappear by passing any gun laws. It's too little, too late.

Guns are big business, big money. Money talks, Bullspit.......

luvblues2

Back to square one...

Kimo

RE she "learned Thursday how to safely use her 9 mm Ruger with a laser sight."

Is she going to wear a holster? Is she going to practice quick draw?

beepx22

one should practice a smooth draw... slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

luvblues2

I don't know school safety issues now, but when I was in K-6, we had an outside door in every classroom that was locked from the outside and could be used from the inside. We were all taught how to use it in fire drills. That was in the early '60s.

Now, given that, and also locking the hall door from the inside and having an armed teacher, I see three ways to prevent what happened in Sandy Hook. JMHO.

OMG.LOL.WT_

I heard Lanza shot his way through a locked glass door. I guess all that was missing was an ARMED teacher.

luvblues2

All the doors to classrooms back then were solid wood or metal with 8x8 windows at head level. Excepting for the main entrance doors. Those kids could have had an escape route given the outside fire door for every classroom. By the time that the gunman had shot his way though the door to the classroom, the kids could've been evacuated through the other outlet along with the teacher and her gun drawn for protection. No need to huddle in a corner and be cannon fodder.

Dr. Information

If anyone thinks the 2nd amendment was about and ONLY about home protection, they are a complete fool and need to go take some serious history lessons. Our founding fathers wrote the second amendment and gave the right to the people to bear arms to protect themselves against ANYTHING, including their own government.

I guess some of you forgot when in our history this piece of paper was written. It wasn't today, it wasn't ten years ago. There was so much civil unrest between colonies and states and differing thoughts that GUNS were peoples only protection against their own government or the north or the south. They wrote this well knowing that guns could be used against them, but they wanted it that way. Remember, they wrote this for US....not THEM. Unlike our government today.

If it was just for HOME PROTECTION or hunting, why wouldn't they just of written it up that way? They are smart enough to write up one of the most important pieces of paper ever, yet made a mistake in the 2nd amendment. Bahahaha, liberals just need to take history lessons other than some opinion piece found on Google.

Kimo

They were also a bunch of drunks. No one knows if they were drunk when they picked up the quill.....

Centauri

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/fein...
"During a "60 Minutes" interview on February 5, 1995 when discussing the federal assault weapons ban, Sen. Feinstein commented she'd get an out right ban if she could.

"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an out right ban, picking up every one of them....Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in. I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here," Feinstein said.

Why do you people elect these rich and powerful elite millionaires to represent you? They decide how you, the average American, will live and by their rules and decisions.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/us...
"U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a Democrat from California, reported a net worth of between $46 million and $108.1 million in 2010, according to financial disclosures.

U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein is one of 261 millionaire members of Congress, according to an analysis of personal wealth conduct by the Center for Responsive Politics."

Centauri

"They were also a bunch of drunks. No one knows if they were drunk when they picked up the quill....."

How about the judges in a court of law when they decide cases or public officials when they passed laws? Were they drunk? There have been some very stupid decisions by judges and law makers.

eriemom

In a free market economy it is necessary for the gun and ammunitions industry to have customers enough to keep production up. Our military uses these products most when we are at war. Consumers are the pawns that keep this industry profitable even when we are not at war. The alternative is to make the industry government run. Since American is a paranoid society that will never happen. The result is the most paranoid among us use our paranoia to be able to buy guns and ammunition developed for military use against us.

With this in mind, why would anyone think that the answer is to add more guns to the problem. We feed the problem when we make the argument that the bad guys already have these guns, so we should arm good guys with the same. Where does it stop? Will we have a tank in every garage?

Take the guns away from the bad guys. If we can't find a way to stop the flow of military style weapons, then stop the flow of ammunition.

goofus

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mahtma Gandhi, Indian Political Leader

OMG.LOL.WT_

EXACTLY!

2cents's picture
2cents

From free public.com:

(Posted on Monday, December 31, 2012 6:07:18 PM

“I know the sense of helplessness that people feel. I know the urge to arm yourself because that’s what I did. I was trained in firearms. I walked to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon and I made the determination if somebody was going to try and take me out, I was going to take them with me,” said Feinstein.

Hypocrisy Feinstein?

Despite calling in the same year for an outright ban on all firearms, Senator Dianne Feinstein, who is set to introduce legislation that would gut the second amendment, said in 1995 that she carried a concealed gun in order to protect herself against terrorists. Yes Dianne more terrorists and crime should mean continued rights and freedoms to protect ourselves.

Michael Moore immediately went public to exploit the Newtown shooting in calling for draconian gun control legislation, yet his own bodyguard was arrested for carrying an unlicensed weapon at in New York’s JFK airport back in 2005.)

The Big Dog's back

Getting desperate quoting from free rethuglic?

goofus

Sort of like quoting crooks and liars huh??????

2cents's picture
2cents

I know the sense of helplessness that people feel. I know the urge to arm yourself because that's what I did. I was trained in firearms. I'd walk to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me." -- 27 April 1995 [28][29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol...

2cents's picture
2cents

(Thursday how to safely use her 9 mm Ruger with a laser sight.)

That picture is sad, she owns that firearm and yet looks like she is afraid of it, she probably did not have one min of firearms training. Like I said n a previous post, a 12 hour course, a license you carry to own or purchase a firearm. Just like a drivers license, you better know what you have in your hand and how to use it lady!!!!!

sanduskysteve

Looks to me like she has her eyes closed - that would work out just great in a room full of school kids.

Mr Bean

I look for an intelligent discussion, I find THIS? Rather than offer some solution, you prattle! Sad, Right ON!----------Concealed carry works!-----pick up a book by John R. Lott, titled: More Guns, Less Crime---the results over the last 30 years have been phenominal.---

vicariouslyAlive

the picture only shows a rudimentary mistake most unseasoned shooters make, and that's cocked the head back because of the action of the slide... nothing more... even people completely interested in shooting start of by making that mistake... it's an instinctive posture... learning how to confidently lean your head forward to aim instead of away is learned just like hitting a ball with a bat. it's all in the amount of practice...

it's either that our she's simply lining up the sights without the intent of pulling the trigger just yet... pulling the gun away from your face give you a huge frame of reference on the outer parts of the gun... to make a precise shot you're not worried about that stuff but rather the 3 dots that make up the iron sights... again... rookie move... but at least this woman is taking the necessary steps to be better aquatinted with her gun of choice thus making it safer for not only the people around her, but herself when she handles the gun. better a short course on safety and aiming than no course at all.

2cents's picture
2cents

Same guy better picture.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k8uCF3...

Centauri

My opinion is that teachers having guns in the school is a good idea. Think about it as insurance and hope to never use it. I would expect more training for teachers than is needed for the average CCW license holders. Not only should the course include basic handling of a firearm but more advanced knowledge should be taught about ammunition and bullet ballistics. The courses should be more intense like those for the police and practice at the range should be included in the future. Police practice at the range to keep their skills and so should the teachers or other school employees.

http://www.projectcensored.org/t...

The above link should be a concern to everybody. Beware of the powers that be that want to disarm the citizens.

"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an out right ban, picking up every one of them....Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in. I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here,"

Dianne Feinstein (February 5, 1995)

Centauri

http://www.mediafreedominternati...

"Within a relatively short period of time the United States has become an increasingly monitored and militarized society. The Patriot Act was the first major erosion of our civil liberties. Over the past decade this erosion has greatly deepened including surprising developments this last year – including passage of the National Defense Authorization Act and the signing of the National Defense Resources Preparedness executive order signed by President Obama. Among a variety of surprising authorizations, the NDAA now allows the military to indefinitely detain without trial any U.S. citizen that the government labels a terrorist or an accessory to terrorism… seemingly expanding the definition of terrorism to include citizen activists. The above executive order authorizes widespread federal and military control of the national economy and resources during “emergency and non-emergency conditions” as well as the right to install “government owned equipment” in private industrial facilities."

Dr. Information

I see someone can't win so they get all my non attacking non anything posts removed. Typical liberal.

Rabbi

All it takes is for the wrong kid on the wrong day to pi$$ off a hot head teacher, and students are getting shot. PLace resource officers in every school. The economic feasability shouldn't even be a part of the conversation.

beepx22

just like wild west shootouts, and killing each other over parking spaces, all the blood in the streets stuff that has never happened right. If a teacher wanted to kill a kid, no one's gonna stop them now. By the way, I believe over 600 teachers and staff in ohio have signed up for our version of this, though i have to verify that yet.

BW1's picture
BW1

Rabbi, you've made it clear that agents of the state, such as teachers, should supersede parental authority. Why would you vest so much power in a group in which you have so little faith?

arnmcrmn

Dems in Illinois going after all modern handguns and rifles.......

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/...

Wont pass, but you can see how the liberals think. If by chance it would, all gun companies have already said they will pack up and move. Bad deal for a state that is hurting unemployment wise.

Centauri

http://www.naturalnews.com/03835...
"(NaturalNews) Adam Lanza's armed massacre of young students in Newton, Conn. is being celebrated by the mainstream media. It's also being celebrated by Obama administration officials who publicly shed a tear but behind the scenes are no doubt high-fiving each other over the opportunity to push their agenda of citizen disarmament."

"This is precisely why Eric Holder and the Obama administration staged Operation Fast & Furious as a way to put guns directly into the hands of Mexican drug gangs, with the hope that those guns would multiply the number of violent shootings in states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and California."

"The pharmaceutical industry is at least partially responsible for many of these shootings, as it is their own drugs which cause young males to become violent and detached. The vast majority of shooters over the last two decades have all been taking prescription medications such as antidepressant drugs (which are known to cause violent, suicidal behavior).

But the real benefit to Big Pharma from the school shootings is that such events traumatize other children who can then be "diagnosed" with fictitious psychiatric disorders which are invented solely for the purpose of selling more prescription medications to children who don't need them."

sanduskysteve

That is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard of. Now we are going to blame pharmaceuticals and we are still making Obama to be the creator of "Fast and Furious"? He had nothing to do with the creation of this - it was your hero, Bush. I'm not too sure the purpose was to give them guns either - if it was, the Bush is to blame. It's about time to stop watching FNC, like about 25% of the rest of the followers have done. Unfair and Unbalanced talk tv.

beepx22

sorry, Fast and Furious was Obama's kid, Bush's tracking operation was shut down when it was discovered it wasn't effective, that the Gangs in Mexico where removing the tracking tags. you hurt you're own cause by being some awfully misinformed, constantly.

arnmcrmn

@steve. I have been blogging longer than you and I just have to call you to the carpet. Nearly everything you post is false. You said early in the form that Fox News ratings are dropping like flies, which I easily proved wrong......See link in early post. Then you say Bush created Fast and Furious.

Operation "gunwalking" or otherwise known as Operation Wide Receiver was created and ran from 2006-2008 (under the Bush administration) and was shut down because it was ineffective, poorly managed, and ran amuck and the legal council involved said that evidence was so poorly managed that they could not legally build a case. So it ended.

Operation Fast and Furious started in October of 2009, well into the Obama administration and had absolutely nothing to do with Bush. We all know the outcome of F&F, so I won't bore you all with the details.

If you are going to try and make a point sanduskysteve, at least have the right information. Geez. Google who created fast and furious and you will easily find all the information you need.

Take the political blinders off man, if you can't bring facts, then don't start the argument or get involved.

Centauri

Operation Fast and Furious (Obama)

Operation Wide Receiver (Bush)

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/...