Boehner says debt limit should be part of talks

House Speaker John Boehner insisted on Friday that any deal with President Barack Obama to avert the so-called fiscal cliff must include lower tax rates, eliminating special interest loopholes and reining in government-benefit programs.
Associated Press
Nov 10, 2012

 

"2013 should be the year we begin to solve our debt through tax reform and entitlement reform," Boehner said.

Boehner and Obama have taken the initial steps in high-stakes negotiations over how to deal with expiring Bush-era tax cuts and automatic spending cuts to defense and domestic programs that economists warn could plunge the nation into another recession.

Boehner, Obama and Senate leaders face a Jan. 2 deadline to reach an agreement or at least come up with a framework to deal with the issue early next year.

Boehner expressed a degree of optimism about resolving the issues and ensuring that his sometimes reluctant GOP rank and file will back any deal.

"When the president and I have come to an agreement, there's been no problem getting it passed in the House," Boehner said.

The speaker declined to discuss specifics on deficit targets or what tax loopholes to eliminate though he cited both corporate and individual.

"I don't want to box myself in. I don't want to box anyone else in," he said.

Boehner indicated that increasing the nation's borrowing authority, which was a divisive issue in August 2011 talks, should be part of any talks in the coming weeks on avoiding the fiscal cliff. The government has said the nation won't reach the debt limit until the spring.

"It's an issue that's going to have to be addressed, sooner rather than later," he said.

Boehner said he had a brief, cordial conversation with Obama earlier in the week and reiterated that the president needs to lead on the negotiations.

Democrats have resisted including entitlement programs such as Medicare and Social Security in any deficit-cutting deal. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said earlier this week they were unwilling to make changes in Social Security.

Boehner insisted that the programs need to be on the table.

"It's not like there is money in Social Security and Medicare" trust fund, Boehner said. "This has to be dealt with."

The Ohio Republican, reflecting the sentiment of his caucus, said increasing the maximum 35 percent tax rate on high-income earners cannot be part of the deal. Boehner did signal that he was open to eliminating loopholes.

"The problem with raising tax rates on wealthy Americans is that more than half of them are small business owners," Boehner said. "Raising tax rates will slow down our ability to create the jobs that everyone says they want."

The Republican leader acknowledged that his party faces several roadblocks after Obama won a second term and the GOP lost seats in both the House and the Senate.

"It's clear that as a political party we've got some work to do," he said.

Republicans fared poorly with Hispanic voters. The fastest growing minority group went heavily for Democrats, backing Obama by more than 70 percent. Boehner signaled a willingness to tackle immigration legislation next year.

"What I'm talking about is a common sense, step-by-step approach, would secure our borders, allow us to enforce the laws, and fix a broken immigration system," he said. "But again on an issue this big, the president has to lead."

 

Comments

2cents's picture
2cents

Boehner said "The problem with raising tax rates on wealthy Americans is that more than half of them are small business owners,"

I was in Chicago this week meeting with a vendor; he is 63 and owns a small business he bought 15 years ago. The business was doing well; he employs about 15 people and makes stamped metal parts. He like most others is taxed at about 35% but in reality when you add up all the taxes like I did, including property tax, state taxes, matching employer contributions and others the current taxes paid by small business owners like myself is more like 51-54%.

His comment was that if I have to pay much more it is just not worth the headache! We are not talking 51% of a bazillion dollars but more like $200K. How would you like to look at your payroll stub after making $500.00 and see the bottom line of $250.00 take home? I know what it is like; I lived out of a budget book many years ago. Remember this guy was not talking about selling his business, he said he would just lock the doors and auction off the equipment. Now there are 15 people out of work! Entrepreneurs take the risk; invest in things that may not fly, have many sleepless nights, have the desire to make their lives better with hard work over and above the norm. Votes for Mitt Romney were not votes for the man but votes for policy. Our current president is very anti middle class and these are the people who fall into the middle class.

There is a lot that can be done to raise revenue and reduce spending without hitting the middle class with taxes. I would like to see a range of what these polititions call middle class income?

Just saying!

Bluto

That ratio is the REAL middle class's reality . 51% is about right in real world terms . If you are doing better then that you are probably not middle class .

2cents's picture
2cents

Bluto,
Here is a nice basic link for income. One thing you fail to understand is the risk some people choose take to make a higher income. There is no time clock, there is no pay check, there are plenty of regulations though and they take their work home, in a brief case or in their mind. Spreading their achievement re, income, will only reduce others desire to work harder to gain it. When that desire to create small businesses is reduced then the possibility of them employing people follows. This heads us toward a socialist society.

http://www.mybudget360.com/how-m...

verdict

A Socialist Dictatorship, inevitably. There is no other way for Socialism to work, except by Dictatorship.

Bluto

I understand just fine . My point is that business owners are not the only people that work hard and strive to get ahead in life . There are many people who have jobs that require plenty of time and investment in order to make a good living . Non-business owners pay for things out of pocket too . Like fuel , tools , vehicles , uniforms , etc. , All the while paying taxes on said expenses . The big difference is that non-business owners don't always get to take advantage of the tax loopholes that the rich have had access to forever . The working class supports the business owners just as much as business supports workers . All anyone wants is for them to pay their fair share . We are all sticking our necks out there trying to make a better life for our families . Like you said running a business is a risky venture , but that doesn't entitle them to preferential treatment .

Contango

@ 2cents:

From my reading, lots of sm. biz owners are cashin' in due to the anticipation of higher fed taxes on cap gains.

Looks like a race for the exits in some cases.

With the likelihood of higher taxes and increased regulation, entrepreneurship looks to be on the critical list.

Why would anyone in his or her right mind want to start a business?

mikel

2cents, good post. many people think that the small business owners are flush with cash. but, like you said not only do we pay property taxes on our homes we also pay them on our shop buildings. we are doubled up on all utilities etc.

it is always easier to spend someone else's money.

John Harville

"Small Business Owners" - the great unwashed melting pot into which everyone likes to toss anyone who wants to complain about the burden of taxes and regulations.
Many 'small businesses' don't file business taxes, instead taking it as part of personal income taxes.
'small business' is minimum 50 employees for ACA.
Small business is 500-500 employees.
while a 'business' with 15 employees - or five or two - is 'small' it is not recognized as a small business.
"Entrepreneurs take the risk"... often unadvisedly or against professional counseling (if they even bother to get such advice/counseling) and thus are not aware of the pitfalls.

coasterfan

More baloney from Boehner. 98% of small business owners earn less than $250,000 a year, and wouldn't be affected by the tax increases on the wealthy that Obama is proposing.

KnuckleDragger

Look for this to be more of the same. The President and Boehner will strike a deal, it will pass the house, and move on to the Senate. Harry Reid will get ahold of it, and either refuse to take action on it in the Senate or completely rewrite it, send it back to the house where it will be voted down, and then Reid will blame it on the Republicans. This is what we have to look forward to because the Dems don't care about solving this, they care about gaining control of the house in 2 yrs. Because of this, look forward to them obstructing any attempt to fix this mess. It's business as usual for Reid and the Democrat controlled Senate.

John Harville

KD... One big difference this time... Congress will take the heat and have to face the electorate in two years. The president and Dems can let it go over the cliff and let all the cuts the Repubs insisted on last happen - major cuts, major revisions.
Then the new - much more Democrat - House and Senate and 'invulnerable' president can set about 'rescuing' the nation, reverse the 2012 Repubican cuts to defense and save the ocuntry BEFORE those cuts have a chance to take effect.
Of course they won't revive the Bush cuts but will set a tax revenue plan that will exact taxes from the wealthy.
$300 million spent to buy a presidency and Senate just didn't work out for the Kocks, Adelman, Rove and others and now they have to bite the bullet and 'enjoy' the redistribution of their wealth to a lot of media moguls who sold all that awful advertising.
Happy Days are here again!!!

2cents's picture
2cents

The link is a good read!

(Four years ago, Obama attempted to break with the past by trying to treat China as a partner in solving global issues: the Great Recession, climate change and nuclear proliferation. He was rebuffed by Beijing, which took the overture as a sign of declining American power)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hu...

Kimo

Re: "sign of declining American power".

IMO
When you go to China looking for them to invest in your city: that is a "sign of declining American power".

America begging for Chinese money sureashell don't look like a "super power" to me.

Cut benefits? How about Boehner starts with "his benefits".

KnuckleDragger

LMAO!!! You know better than that. There isn't a single politician in office at the Federal level that would take a cut in their pay and benefits. Keep dreamin'. Pay raises and increased benefits for themselves are about the only thing all of these politicians can agree on :)

sanduskysteve

I still don't consider someone making 200,000 middle class - that was Romney's description of the middle class. The average income in this country is 50,000 - that would be middle class and there are too many who make less than that even. The real rich though are those making a million or more. I really am supposed to feel sorry for them only getting to keep 500,000 of their money??? I surely don't. Maybe they could do with only one yacht rather than 4. Fix this problem with HR25 which no republican has ever wanted to happen - then it will be more fair to everyone involved.

Also, curious about what the guy making 200,000 is paying those 15 employees. I would guess not even 10 bucks an hour. The information would be interesting though. Does this employer pay their health insurance?

KnuckleDragger

LOL. Romney's description? Obama has been touting around the $250K and below number as middle class for as long as he has been president. Do I really have to post links to all of his speeches where he mentions it?

Contango

@ sanduskysteve:

Yachts?

Maybe the Dems should re-new the luxury tax on expensive cars, jewelry and yachts?

Maybe they can try for another few thousand working people losing their jobs and hundreds of businesses closing?

When ya tax the rich, the "little people" who make the goods that the rich tend to buy end up being the only ones who suffer.

http://answers.yahoo.com/questio...

2cents's picture
2cents

Contango, you are correct. My company did build a part that went on Tiara yachts as well as a part that went into a Monaco motor coach The price tag of a Monaco was a about $1,000.000.00. Both parts have been yanked by a big customer and moved to China for assembly, our part cost to them was $5.50 and China was $2.50. Until this year I have never laid off anyone permanently!

John Harville

Contango... the cuts will weed out the small businesses who shouldn't be in business.
And whatever happens will lie at the door of the Republican House of Representatives. As Sen. Patty Murray said, if December 31 comes and all the automatic cuts the Republicans 'compromised' to in 2011 happen - it will just be a good lesson for the country. Come January 3 when the new Congress is sworn with a decidedly darker complexion and more feminine outlook, the Democrats merely enact laws the President signs and the Tea Party and Norquist Republicans will have to remember November 2014 comes quickly.

8ballinthesidepocket

I would love to see what you would do if you got off your behind, got educated, started a business with every cent you had, and finally after about ten years of struggling the business took off and you started making big money. You would be in the conga line nay saying taxes on you. It so easy to sit on your duff, do nothing and bad mouth the successful..typical lazy liberal dogma.

John Harville

8ball.... did you go into your business knowing it could be 10 years before takeoff? Were you financed well enough to wait 10 years? Too many don't bother to create business plans, work with counselors, accept the reality of working in a deficit for several years, have sufficient capitalization (every cent you had might not be enough), and even be willing to borrow more and more and still work in 'the hole'. Why is it everyone who becomes a success is like a smoker who quit or overweight person who lost a lot of weight and now knows all there is to know?
I know a lot of liberals who own successful businesses, find ways to provide benefits, actually have full-time employees (not part-timers who don't get benefits), planned for the lean years and knew from the beginning about budgeting.
Namecalling is the last resort of losers who have no other argument.

JACKEL

I am glad you cleared that up,I kept asking everyone,Who in the hell,do you Multi Millionaires consider middle class'?I guess the Congress is all Multi Millionaires except The Idiot Biden!He may be by now as well !

verdict

@sanduskysteve Is this 200k gross income or net income?
If it is gross income (which it probably is, since gross income is what gets taxed and the net income is what you are left with), he could not afford to even pay the employees $10/hr, let alone the operating costs and taxes.
15 employees x $10/hr. x 40 hrs/wk. x 52 wks/yr. = 312k. THEN we can start on the taxes and operating costs.

KnuckleDragger

The $200K is likely gross income, which is computed different for a business. The taxable income for a business owner is the income he/she has made after expenses which include wages and benefits to employees. This isn't rocket science folks.

John Harville

Verdict. Look around. How many such businesses do you see paying for 40 hrs/week? Virtually none... cuz then they don't have to provide any sort of benefits short of payroll taxes. I worked in a small business. It's cheaper to have 10 20hr/wk employees than five 40hr/week employees. The owner of the business where I worked lived a comfortable lifestyle with nice house, two cars, boat and vacations - and still took a write-off every year on his taxes.

DGMutley

sanduskysteve,

Who knows if the employer is paying their health insurance? You can betcha though the employer is paying his own health insurance through the business.

Anyone curious about how the income is taxed just download the Schedule C pdf and look at it. The owner is taxed on his $200,000 after all expenses. In other words, at this point his income is no different than any other professional person making $200,000.

Footnote: We keep hearing about the taxes being raised on small business but that isn't true the taxes are being raised on the _owner_ of the small business after all expenses are paid.

John Harville

And let's not forget the great LLC - Limited Liability Corporation - which holds all the homes, cars, property etc. and pays all the mortgages while the owner merely pays the LLC, thereby LIMITing his LIABILITY for tax.

mikel

mutley, when a business has a group health plan it must be for more than 1 person. then either all employees are on or they must opt out. so, having an llc myself you are both right and wrong about the taxes being raised on the business vs the owner.

my building is titled to the llc. the llc pays the property taxes. also the llc pays the sales tax for equipment as well as taxes on utilities and fuel. at the end of the day it comes out of my llc checking account. most business's just don't throw it all into one bag and shake it out.

Pastor Ron

Maybe he should hire Romney's accountant and then probably pay less than 14 percent?

8ballinthesidepocket

Did Romney break any laws? He paid over 2.0 million in taxes, donated another 2.0 million to charities, now what did you do in those terms? I know "it's not fair!" Wah wah wah wah. Do you know what tax rate Warren Buffett paid? George Soros? Bill Gates? Steven Speilberg? Read up on Obama's buddy Spielberg and how he is trying spin off part if his holdings before year end so he saves 2.0 million in taxes..now that doesn't sound very patriotic does it?

KnuckleDragger

People like Pastor Ron are all for the IRS and the thousands of loopholes that allow THEM to avoid taxes. But, all he!! be darned if someone rich takes advantage of them despite the fact that millionaires like Romney paid more in total taxes in one year than Pastor Ron has made in his lifetime. Why don't you take a look at the percentage in taxes Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi paid last year? Both paid at a 15% tax rate. I guess it is just fine if they're a Demakook.

John Harville

Did he break any law? We dunno. He won't release his tax records. Although we did find out Reid was right that Romney didn't pay any taxes for 15 years because he 'rented' his church's non-profit status - which was entirely legal.
Bet Romney's tax accountants already are busy filing an amended returnto claim that other $2 million in contributions so he can knock his rate down further and pay no taxes.

Contango

Rumor:

By dictate, Mr. Obama will raise the Federal debt ceiling and say to Congress: See you in court.

----------------------------

Due to the govt.'s excessive debt and money printing, our fiat currency will continue to lose value causing food and other commodities to rise in price.

My advice: Buy gold.

Remember: You will always be able to trade your gold for fiat currency, but you may not be able to trade your worthless fiat currency for gold.

shucks

@ contango

What will you trade gold for?
Food? Yachts?

Contango
JACKEL

All Empires fell after going off The Gold Standard !

verdict

China and Russia are looking at going onto a gold standard, I heard.
BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) are looking to form a new reserve currency to replace the dollar, as well. If a new reserve currency is formed, then the Democrats' economic model (requiring the printing of dollars out of thin air) will not only collapse us, it will utterly wipe us out.
Then Russia and China can send the "Occupy the U.S." movement.

Contango

Interesting; the USDA delayed the release of the monthly food stamp numbers until after the election.

Say it ain't so.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/20...

shucks

@ contango

Yes very interesting, but back to the question-
If paper is useless, what are you going to trade your gold for--food or yachts?

Contango

Don't worry munchkin, Mr. Obama has promised to take care of you. I'll take care of myself and my own.

shucks

You really think your money is going to protect you?
LOL!

(And in true form, you dodged the question.)

2cents's picture
2cents

4, that depends on who he chooses to hang out with ;)

Randy_Marsh

"Protect you"? Who will he need protection from other than those who didnt prepare and riot for food and stuff? Gold has been the currency for the last 5,000 years, Pretty sure it will still hold its worth more than paper. (For protection im pretty sure people who are smart enough to buy physical gold are armed)

shucks

No, I did not mean in the sense breaking in and stealing.

2cents's picture
2cents

Thats good! LOL look out for the black tips.....

http://50bmgsupply.com/images/AP...

shucks

yeah, I used to shoot them.

Randy_Marsh

4shizzle
Then what did you mean? Gold retains its value as it is used in almost everything these days, Paper on the other hand is good for.. Well it was used as wall paper in weimar at one time.

shucks

see below

shucks

marsh

Hypothetically,if you were shipwrecked on an island, lost in the woods, in the desert, what would you rather have? a bag of food or a bag of gold?

2cents's picture
2cents

(if you were shipwrecked on an island, lost in the woods, in the desert)

Gold for sure! Semi soft it can be worked.

Shipwrecked, I would pound it into a spearhead and catch fish to eat, pound some more of it into a reflector to concentrate the sunlight and start a fire or signal a passing ship or plane and if they showed up pay off the captain for a ride and a first class stateroom.

Lost in the woods, I would again pound it into a reflector to signal a searching helicopter, if need be another spearhead then throw some pieces into a stream so a thousand miners would show up to save and steal from me!

In a desert, I would again pound it into a reflector, the heck with a spear but maybe a shovel head to dig for water and pray that an Arab would wonder buy so I could buy a camel from him.

Give a man a fish!!
LMAO

shucks

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,very resourceful.

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

"Money" is merely used as a medium of exchange and can take a variety of forms.

The stupidity of your limited choice fallacy question garnered the response it deserved.

shucks

@ sandusky register

oops sorry

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

Have a good day sunshine.

shucks

.

abigbear

when the rich run out of money for bho to redistribute the bottom feeders steal everything the rich owe them we'll be a 3rd world country because the Muslim-n- chief wants his brotherhood family to have all the oil and gas under this ONCE great US

Contango

Pres. Obama:

"I will not ask students or seniors or middle-class families to pay down the entire deficit while people making over $250,000 aren't asked to pay a dime more in taxes."

Did you get that Obamasheeple?

If not, let me help you: He will not ask YOU to "pay down the entire deficit" by yourselves.

What does that mean? Higher taxes.

The "joke" is on you. Are you laughing yet?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pr...

FORWARD SOVIET!

Centauri

"I will not ask students or seniors or middle-class families to pay down the entire deficit while people making over $250,000 aren't asked to pay a dime more in taxes."

Read slowly and carefully and think about what you are reading. There are some key words to pay attention to here. I will translate what I am reading using other words.

""I will ask students or seniors or middle-class families to pay down some of the deficit while people making over $250,000 will be asked to pay a dime more in taxes.""

The Big Dog's back

I can't wait until you start paying higher taxes winnie.

KnuckleDragger

I'll bet you can't, maybe they can double your welfare check. At least then you should be able to afford to move out of your mother's basement.

mikel

i have said this many times. you will never hurt the rich. if you tax them more then they will make cuts to preserve their monies. whether it is by letting employees go or not buying as much ie autos, boats, clothing etc. so, in the long wo pays the price for this? the common man, thats who. then who ya gonna bitc! at? you got what you wanted.

您美國人是哀鳴者。 對你自己而不是富有的憂慮!

mikel

for every 1% that the man in the oval office wants to tax the rich that same percentage should be cut from gov't funding to programs.

我們遲早將擁有您的家。

The Big Dog's back

mikel, you make the case as to why we should go back to 90% tax rate. Let's see them make that up with less workers.

KnuckleDragger

Actually, the 90% tax rate might work if they give a deduction based on how many jobs you create or maintain each year ~

The Big Dog's back

knuckle! We agree! I'd go for that.

shucks

Good one Knuck

wiredmama222

I still think flat taxing is the answer to everything. You pay according to your income. That way it is based fairly.

And we eliminate these fat cat pay's for the Senate and House. They have to run their offices out of their salaries. No more big paydays for these guys. Eliminate the fat.

Watch how fast the "deficits" go down. Eliminate the huge tax offices (you won't need the big IRS offices any more).

Cut back on government spending by eliminating double jobs. Streamline operations. No more CIA and FBI. One or the other but not both.

No more Homeland Security....we don't need them.

Just a few choice cut backs.

SamAdams

You're right. That's why it'll never happen.

I'm in favor of a graduated flat tax, too. Under a certain income, you pay nothing. Then graduated percentages to a top rate of maybe 20-25% (lower than current top rates). NO DEDUCTIONS OF ANY KIND. (Let's be real: People who make a LOT of money don't need the deductions. People who DON'T make a lot of money typically don't get deductions anyway outside of a pittance per child. Those people would pay no tax or so much less in tax under a flat tax plan that they'd come out way ahead without those deductions.)

Oh, and one more thing: If you're able-bodied and on ANY kind of assistance (outside of those past retirement age who are on Social Security and/or Medicare), you must WORK for it.

Meanwhile, as for cutting back in government, I support a pay-go program. So does Congress. They just didn't mean a word of it! The ultimate in cutbacks would, of course, be limiting the government to those things it's actually SUPPOSED to do as opposed to those things it's encroached into doing. Just one more thing that's not gonna happen, not without another revolution, anyway.

KURTje

Yes! Flat tax for ALL. Forbes had it right when he ran for office. It would bode well if the next CIC would speak this. They would garner many votes alone from that single item.

SamAdams

Gold is a terrific investment! Except for a couple of things, of course. You can't eat gold. You can't burn it. And I'm almost sure you can't crawl underneath it for a safe place to sleep. On the plus side, I imagine you could bonk a bad guy over the head with it when he comes to take what you don't have!

Don S

Speaker Boehner,,, What a joke on Ohio !!!!

KnuckleDragger

Dude, look down, the joke is in your hand.

shucks

The Repubs are SITTING on that tax- break money.

Darkhorse

As I see it, the Republicans already lost so what more do they have to lose then to call Obama's bluff and allow it to go over the cliff. Watch Obama come to the table real fast. The taxpayer is getting tired of this chicken game between the two parties only to extend it out for another few months and it never gets addressed. Another four years of grid lock. Can the country stand much more?

KnuckleDragger

And yet we keep voting for the same each and every year. It is going to take a real depression for the American people to wake up.

SamAdams

I've been saying it for years: If you're sick of politics as usual, stop voting for the usual politicians. And what do we get? The same old thing, time after time, and all too often regardless of nominal party affiliations. Pathetic when you think about it...

A depression will, unfortunately, not wake too many more people up. It'll simply cause even greater demands on an even bigger and more powerful government. Democracies typically only last until the voter realizes he can vote himself largesse from the public treasury. November 6 proved definitively that we've passed that tipping point.

Freedom, without effort by people to STAY free, inevitably deteriorates into complacency which is always, ALWAYS followed by a dictatorship and effective slavery. The lack of effort, the lack of personal responsibility, the desire by too many to live on the backs of too few, shows us right where we're at on that historically-validated timeline, and it ain't pretty.

Contango

If history is any guide, economic turmoil tends to increase the likelihood of authoritarian collectivist methods (shared sacrifice) and away from free market principles.

See: FA Hayek's "Road to Serfdom" or Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged."

Hitler and Mussolini were much more effective "New Dealers" than FDR, but only because of the political structure.

When Herr Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1933, many Jews ( the "rich") who remained in Germany, believed that the electorate would eventually see through the madness and vote the Nazis out in an upcoming election - sadly they were wrong.

I'm "shrugging" as best I can. IMO, our only "weapon" of resistance is to contribute as little as possible to the insanity as we perceive it.

shucks

Ayn Rand's teachings suck.

Darkhorse

The Republicans need to call a bluff on Obama and allow the fiscal cliff thing go over the cliff and watch Obama get back to the negotiating table real quick. Every year we go through this and every year they put an extension on things and not really address the situation. The taxpayer is tried of the grid lock. Maybe we need to go over the cliff to finally get the situation addressed.

carhaulerdave

It seems to me that many people including the author of this article are missing a very obvious point. We keep approaching and raising the debt ceiling because we are spending a lot more money than we are taking in. There will be much debate on how to raise taxes and it is sadly inevitable that someone's taxes will go up, but we(meaning the federal government) need to reduce spending. It won't solve all of our problems, but we can't keep spending money we don't have and then raising our debt. That debt has to be paid at some point. Spending cuts are going to hurt, but they need to be made. Without spending cuts, the debt will continue to rise and we will be having this same discussion in a couple more years.

eriemom

Does anyone have any statistics yet about how much money was spent on the most recent election cycle? I will bet that at least 8:1 or even 10:1 ratio for Romney over Obama. I wonder what the people whom contributed to him wanted in return. My opinion, and mind you I have no proof, is that they wanted to keep the preferential treatment embedded in the tax code. If they could spent this obscene amount of money on an election how much money DO they actually save when paying taxes today compared to 2000.

Contango

@ eriemom:

No search engine?

http://elections.nytimes.com/201...

The final popular vote was 50-48-2.

So 50% of the electorate wanted "someone" other than Mr. Obama.

Doesn't look like a mandate to me, even though in Mr. Obama's confused mind he believes it to be.

FORWARD CHOOM GANG!

shucks

@ contango
You said:
"The final popular vote was 50-48-2."
Where did you get those figures?

Obama got 50.5%
Romney got 47.9%

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/20...

So 50.5% of the electorate wanted "someone" other than Mr.Romney.

In 2000, Gore WON the popular votes OVER Bush but lost the Electorate.

So what?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

So using your figures, 49.5% (50% rounded) wanted someone 'other' than Mr. Obama.

Looks pretty split to me - no mandate.

If Mr. Obama has a mandate, then the House has a mandate - no tax increases.

Bipartisan: Extend all the current tax rates for one yr. and begin tax reform ala Simpson-Bowles and TRA86.

shucks

@ con

Time will tell.

The Big Dog's back

A mandate was established: Obama 332 Romney 206. Mandate.

mikel

buy lead. it is the only metal that will count when the poop hits the fan!

您美國人是傻瓜。 您的領導將毀壞您工作的所有。

shucks

@ mikel
oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang

wiredmama222

It's really simple. Let them go off the cliff. The senate and house must be really scared now. Obama won and now they have little to NO leverage with this deadline coming up. The rich must be shaking in their shoes because of the loop holes closing. If Obama does NOTHING, they close. The rich have no choice but to pay their fair share. If Obama stay on the track he is on now, there is nothing the rich can do but pay, pay, pay.

OUCH. The Republicans must be screaming at their buddies in the Senate to do something and do it quick. But they cannot FORCE the President to do anything at this point. He probably won't. I hope he does let those loopholes expire, let this go off the cliff and start anew after the first of the year. It would be the best for all concerned for anyone making less than $250,000 a year.

Listening to George Stephanoplis this morning was an earful on how the Republicans are NOW blaming Bush for everything.....lololol. How funny to hear that one.

Contango

@ wiredmama222:

That 400 pt. drop in the market last wk. was nothin' if DC dives off the fiscal cliff.

How many of those making $250K annually are employers? Watch for an unemployment spike if DC dives off the fiscal cliff.

verdict

You could take all 100% of the yearly income of every American who makes over $250k /yr. and you would still need everyone UNDER 250k to chip in $38 just to pay for the 2011 spending. Collapse seems imminent.
The real decision people made, during this election, is what kind of leader they wanted to have during the collapse. And they picked a Leftist. Read through history and see what kind of governments that Leftists install in the event of economic collapse. Hint: Dictatorships.

If the Republicans are now joining the "blame a Right Winger" narrative, it would not even cause me to blink. One thing Ron Paul has taught me about them: they are probably not even real Republicans, anyway.
I can go thru and lay out, in detail, how the Left Wing paradigm has sabotaged this country over the past 50 years. It is rather elementary, even. Yet, even now as it is all coming to a head in full view, the Republicans say nary a word in the mainstream about this to defend themselves. It is almost as if they only wanted to APPEAR to be two parties.

shucks

Chill verdict,

Dictatorship?(in the USA) No.
When Anti-Christ comes,(dictator of the earth) yes.

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

Fear instead the coming wrath of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

http://www.google.com/search?q=f...

Randy_Marsh

Evangelical Pastafarianism, Truly somthing to be afraid of, Death by buttery cholesterol while Liberals lecture you on the evils of bad eating habits.

shucks

Thanks for showing your colors.

Are there more atheists in the house?

Randy_Marsh

4Shizzle
Thanks for showing yours. Guess the studys are right,You liberals are a humorless people.

shucks

marsh
What makes you say that OR how did you determine that Im humorless?
That's interesting.

Randy_Marsh

Thats epic! You obviously do not see the humor in it.
To be more precise, The book is written as a parody. It is poking fun as "Life of Brian" by Python does.If you cannot see the humor in it and see everything as a direct attack on your beliefs you are in essence, Humorless.

shucks

Come on marsh!

How am I supposed to know that you are kidding when your post follows Contango and it has similarities?

I am not in your head, only you know what you are thinking.

Randy_Marsh

4shizzle
Look up the book itself. Its a parody and satire that is a pretty funny book. The athiest like to use it as a anti-religion thing and thats thier right to, But as a religion it is comical as it was written to be. Personally I am religious, Just not fanatical and like to keep my beliefs to myself and not impose doctrine on others.(Imposing belifs on others is one of the reasons the book was written, The author doesnt like it) Also i can laugh at almost anything even if they are poking fun at me.

shucks

Whats the name of the book? The life of brian?

I saw the movie.
Blessed are the cheesemakers.

Randy_Marsh

4shizzle
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gospel...
Is the name of the book. Pretty funny reading,It kept me cracking up. *Disclaimer* Not to be read and discussed as a serious book with those who claim to be part of it, It leads to headaches and cholesterol levels skyrocketing.
LOL! I agree the cheesemakers are truly blessed.

shucks

thanks

Randy_Marsh

4shizzle
You're welcome! Have fun with it,It only gets to those who cannot or will not allow themselves to laugh a little about things.

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

"Always look on the bright side of life."

Except for deities and different crazy customs, all religions are pretty similar aren't they?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L...

shucks

@ contango

No.
There is Christianity in contrast to ALL the OTHER religions of the world.

What God has done for you vs. what you must do for God.

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

So as an example, Muslims are wrong and YOU are right? LMAO!!!

Is the Judeo-Christian God so insecure that one must praise Him or be punished?

Would you want a parent with that form of mental illness?

shucks

.

shucks

To answer your first question-yes.
Second-ignorance.
Third-hubris.

What good news do you have?
Make a lot of money then die?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

So your little invisible friend(s) told you that you were right?

The Muslims have miracles and visions just like your cult experiences. How can one be any better than the other?

Good to see that your pretend afterlife fantasy makes you happy.

Money? Seems like Jesus went around beggin' for it. Seem like the Churches do much of the same - tax 'em!

Money is merely a tool to help provide a comfortable life for me and mine.

shucks

Sad.
You and yours are going to die, then what?
Will you go somewhere or not?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

Where was I before I was born?

shucks

You didn't exist (contrary to certain eastern religions).

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

So your interpretation of life, death and existence is correct and everyone else's is wrong?

Pure sophistry and egotistical craziness.

shucks

It's not my interpretation of life, death and existence .

I'll ask you again-- What good news do you have?

What's your interpretation of life, death and existence ?

Just make money then die? (sounds like a bright future)

shucks

@
contango

So according to you, there is no afterlife?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

And you believe in such a concept why? Because it makes you feel good?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

So you depend on others for your interpretation of life, death and existence?

Can't think for yourself huh?

You read like someone who has no idea what money is, what it can do or how to make it.

Do you tithe to a church?

shucks

@ con
I'll bet you depended on others interpretations on how to make money.
I know money makes you feel good.
Money is your god and you worship and adore it.
Try spending it from the grave.

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

Anti-Christ? "Revelations" is an apocryphal Gnostic work.

Besides, some Christians believe that Mr. Obama is the A-C.

mikel

"Ohio families receiving food stamps could get an unwelcome surprise come January: $50 less every month in assistance...The average food-stamp recipient receives $138 per person, per month" this is a reduction from the fed gov't.

wow! $138 per person per family. so, a family of 5 gets $650+ per month on their food card plus, during school year, would be eligible for free or reduced breakfast and lunch! and people wonder why our gov't is broke.

today's toldeo blade

LadyC

A couple of you were doing some figuring on what gets taxed for the business owners. You forgot to factor in the depreciation deductions, that allow for the building and equipment used in the business. These can add up to pretty hefty savings for the owner. Not saying they should get the snot taxed out of them, but there are still pretty favorable treatments for them. And tax credits as well. I think a big problem is the attitudes coming from both sides. And it isnt all about number crunching. Numbers can be crunched every which way. The left and the right are battling each other, in fear of "socialism" or "fascism." Employers vs. employees is not a good thing for any business. To the owners and CEOs--talk to employees, listen to what they have to say. They are a valuable resource, not another number on a financial report. And employees--just because you punch a clock doesn't mean the place owes you everything. Do an honest day's work. The disparity and disassociation is what will drive our businesses and our country into the ground. We need to get together!

Randy_Marsh

Rumors of the VAT comming, Get ready to bend over.

Contango

Some Biblical "proof" that Pres. Obama is the Anti-Christ:

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/s...

shucks

Nonsense from some crazy church.

http://objectiveministries.org/s...

"Landover Baptist claims to be a church. Moreover, they claim to be the only church in America that understands the Bible! In fact, neither is true. Landover Baptist is a fraud. A joke."

John Harville

The antichrist is not mentioned in the Bible.. One writer mentions the 'antichrists among us' - meaning at the time he was writing.

Contango

@ John Harville:

Better communicate with 4shizzle he brought up the AC.

He must think it's real.

John Harville

An antichrist is mentioned five times in 1JOhn and 2John and names, among others the Jews AND - listen closely - those who believe Jesus is a separate being from God and not part of the Trinity (that would be Mormons)
The same scriptures also state the Antichrist does not appear until after Christs' second appearance/coming on Earth.
Do you know/have you seen something the rest of us haven't? Has the New Jerusalem descended into Missouri (as the Mormons predict)?
Did we miss the Second Coming, the Rapture, and Armageddon?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

So some Christians are "crazy"? How can you tell the difference?

shucks

Do you really want to know?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

If necessary, ask your invisible friends and get back to me.

shucks

You didn't(want to) understand the question, did you?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

And you answered my question with a question. Your point?

shucks

@
contango

So according to you, there is no afterlife?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

And how do you know with 100% metaphysical certainty that there is one?

Has someone "come back" and told you about it?

John Harville

Me.

Randy_Marsh

Not to dive into the religious/afterlife deal too deeply But according to the string theory M,There are alot of unknowns and dimensions that arent accounted for which could lead to the interpretation of a afterlife just not in the same form as we now hold.When the dimension of time is introduced along with 20 others alot can be guessed at but will never be truly known. As for concious retainment of this life alot of resonance theorys have been put forward and are looked at as quasi-science but yet have to be disproven.

John Harville

unknowns and dimensions... like all the individual planets Romney and other Mormons will inherit and rule?
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the assurance of things unseen.
"For unbelievers, no proof is sufficient; for believers, no proof is necessary."

Randy_Marsh

@john
Unknowns, As in theoretical physics. A faith in the outcome of a theory is considered science to some degree wouldnt you agree?

shucks

@ con

Here's the deal. FIRST, you answer this question--What's your interpretation of life, death and existence ?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

A. Depends.

Now answer my simple question: Why is that Christian church crazy in it's interpretation?

shucks

@ con

Bad answer.

Explain.

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

Honest? And this from someone who has been playing word games and dodging the question? LOL

"Depends" means depends.

Subjectivity: It depends upon each individual's interpretation and meaning.

Some make up their own mind and some like you need their minds made up for them.

"Objective Christianity"??? LMAO!!!What an oxymoron.

You used a web link and never answered the question.

Good to know that they have a better link to your invisible friends than you.

shucks

@ con
It's good to know that you can laugh.

After you get done laughing, answer this question--What's YOUR interpretation of life, death and existence ?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

Asked and answered.

shucks

@ con

Dodged and unanswered

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

And your non-answer to my first question was a link to "Objective Christianity"?

Contango

@ 4shizzle:

"Bad answer"?

Typical Christian, dividing the world into good and bad categories.

A carryover from Zoroastrianism.

John Harville

Because the AntiChrist of which you wish to claim is Obama does not exist anywhere in the Bible. The term is only used five times and then to speak of contemporaneous 'antichrists among us' at the time of the writing - with the exception of the evil one who will appear AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. Truly Christian churches know this and thus never preach it...unless you know of a sighting of Jesus!

Contango

@ Randy_Marsh:

String theory has too many assumptions. First assume "X."

All "knowledge" is ultimately based on assumptions.

We know nothing directly, but only through metaphors which in themselves are made up of assumptions.

And then, we use metaphors to explain metaphors.

All info comes through the five senses which are flawed. Heck everyone sees colors differently - no one sees the same "shade."

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