Auto bailout could be key to Obama victory in Ohio

President Barack Obama's decision to help America's automakers could end up being what helps drive him back into the White House.
Associated Press
Oct 24, 2012

Some 850,000 jobs in this critical battleground state are tied to autos and Obama's campaign constantly reminds voters they'd be jobless if not for the decision to inject taxpayer dollars into General Motors and Chrysler. However, the move has not translated into automatic support for the president, even in areas that depend on the industry. Republican Mitt Romney also is pitching these voters hard with his message that Obama hasn't balanced Washington's checkbook the same way voters must.

One in eight jobs in Ohio can be linked to the auto industry — whether it's working on a factory floor or selling groceries to plant workers. The presidential race's outcome could boil down to whether voters interpret Obama's move as saving Detroit or bailing it out. But like other flashpoints in this rough campaign, there is little middle ground between the versions of events and what it means for voters' neighbors.

"I couldn't imagine what Lordstown would be," said Brian Axiotis, a 37-year-old Obama supporter who works in information technology and lives in nearby Newton Falls. "A lot of folks would lose their houses. Consider the mess that would have resulted. It'd be a ghost town all over the area."

Since its restructuring, the General Motors plant in this town of 4,000 people southeast of Cleveland has added a third shift — and 1,200 new workers with it — to produce the popular compact Chevy Cruze. GM has pledged $220 million in updates to the factory and to keep the 4,500 workers, suggesting this town in the former steel-heavy Mahoning Valley has some stability ahead.

Romney volunteer Frank Perrotta still finds Obama's decision to loan automakers billions a misuse of public dollars. Between calls to voters at Romney's office in Stow, he shakes his head when talking about the government's move to prevent the collapse of GM and Chrysler. The bailout began in 2008 under Republican George W. Bush and Obama extended it.

"I have to run my business responsibly. No one is coming to bail me out if I get into trouble," said Perrotta, a 63-year-old Hudson resident who runs a medical imaging business that employs nine workers. "The bailout was just not fair."

Romney opposed using government money to save the car companies in a 2008 op-ed piece in The New York Times, titled "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt." Romney preferred a managed bankruptcy, without federal money, and has maintained the rescue was unfair, unnecessary and political payback to labor unions.

"If we had taken your advice, Gov. Romney, about our auto industry, we'd be buying cars from China instead of selling cars to China," Obama said in Monday's presidential debate.

His statement sparked one of the most contentious moments of the evening, with the two interrupting and arguing over one another about what impact Romney's idea would have had. "I would do nothing to hurt the U.S. auto industry," Romney said, touting his affection for American cars, his Detroit roots and his father's leadership of American Motors Corp.

Obama insisted Romney was "trying to airbrush history" and suggested voters should check the record.

While GM paid back its loan and the government took an ownership stake, the Treasury Department estimates Washington might lose about $25.1 billion on its investment. It smacks of government waste for its critics.

"They should've followed the bankruptcy process that applies to the rest of us who don't have union bosses for friends. They bailed out their buddies," said Loretta Hurite, a 74-year-old Romney supporter from Cuyahoga Falls working the phones in Stow.

And so it continues through the state, where polls are close and both campaigns are in overdrive. No Republican has ever won the White House without carrying Ohio, and John F. Kennedy's 1960 campaign was the last Democratic effort to win the presidency without it. Voters here are bombarded with campaign ads and candidate visits, mail at the ends of their driveways and phone calls at all hours.

Obama's allies never hesitate to raise the bailout in visits to the state. "Osama bin Laden is dead, and General Motors is alive," Vice President Joe Biden roars at rallies, always a sure-fire applause generator.

Obama's team even has former President Bill Clinton making the point.

"It's important to remember than one in eight jobs in the state of Ohio is tied to the auto industry," Clinton told voters in Parma last week. "When you were down and you were out, the president had your back. Now, you've got to have his."

Not so fast, says Dennis Muniak, a 60-year-old Parma resident who attended the Clinton rally near Cleveland.

"Seven out of eight jobs aren't auto jobs," countered Muniak, who is drawing disability benefits.

Back in Trumbull County's city of Warren, just across the railroad tracks from the Lordstown plant, General Motors retiree George Vukovich cast his ballot early for Obama.

"In this valley, we are autos. Obama took care of us. He kept his promise. Now, we have to have his back," the 61-year-old Vukovich said before acknowledging the auto industry's heyday might be in its past.

Across the street from the early voting site, weeds are growing high at a car audio shop that has shut its doors. A retail plaza next door is vacant.

"We were lucky. We worked through the glory days of the 1970s, '80s and '90s," Vukovich said. "Those days are over. But I have great insurance and I have a great retirement."

Thanks to the taxpayers, Chuck Wirebaugh clucks.

"Obama sold out to the auto unions. GM would be better off had it gone through bankruptcy like everyone else has to. Instead, they got special treatment and a sweetheart bailout," the 69-year-old retiree from Cortland said after he cast his ballot early for Romney.

"Obama shouldn't have the job," Wirebaugh said. "He should be a used car salesman. It's about the only thing he's qualified to be."

 

Comments

Swamp Fox

Would you hire President Obama as your financial adviser? Three years ago his administration invested more than $100 billion in taxpayer money to bail out General Motors. On Tuesday, the entire company, not just what the government owns, was worth less than $34 billion. By anyone’s definition, that investment is a glaring failure. Yet over the last few days the Obama campaign, in a $25 million marketing blitz, has flooded the airwaves with ads in battleground states, claiming the bailout should be counted a rousing success.

Unfortunately, assertions that “all loans have been repaid to the federal government,” that the bailout “saved more than one million American jobs,” that “U.S. automakers are hiring hundreds of thousands of new workers,” that GM is again the “number-one automaker” — all are based on creative accounting.

The money the government spent adds up quickly: $50 billion in TARP bailout funds, a special exemption waiving payment of $45.4 billion in taxes on future profits, an exemption for all product liability on cars sold before the bailout, $360 million in stimulus funds, and the $7,500 tax credit for those who buy the Chevy Volt. GM’s share of other programs is harder to quantify but includes, for example, some of the $15.2 billion that went to Cash for Clunkers. Those costs are in addition to the billions taken from GM’s bondholders by the Obama administration.

A look at the accounting shows the trouble with contentions that much of the TARP money is getting paid back. The Obama administration compares the $50 billion in direct bailout funds with the price it will eventually be able to get for selling the GM stock it owns. But that assumes that the stock price won’t reflect government subsidies, including GM’s exemption from paying $45 billion in taxes. By the Obama administration’s logic, if the stimulus grants to TARP recipients were simply large enough, all the TARP money could be paid.

Claims that GM paid back its TARP loan are true but misleading. President Obama clearly wants to create the impression that all the money given to the auto companies has been paid back. But the $6.7 billion loan to GM was just a tiny fraction of the money given to it. As TARP special inspector general Neil Barofsky explained, GM used “other TARP money” to pay off the loan.

So what about President Obama’s boast in a White House speech in late April that the bailout “saved probably a million jobs” and that “GM is now the number-one automaker again in the world”?

The “million jobs” contention is quite a stretch. Before filing for bankruptcy in July 2009, GM had 91,000 employees in the United States. You can reach a 400,000 total by assuming that all of GM’s jobs, as well as all the jobs of its parts suppliers and car dealers, would have been lost. Last year, employment in the entire automotive industry in the U.S. (counting Ford, Toyota, and other companies and their suppliers, in addition to GM and Chrysler) was only 717,000.

Obama’s economic advisers told him during an April 2009 meeting that job losses in the auto industry would be only a fraction — 10 to 20 percent — of these claimed numbers, even for the much weaker Chrysler. The advisers reported the obvious: Bankruptcy would not kill all jobs at GM and, even with cutbacks, suppliers would pick up other work. But Obama keeps using numbers that his own advisers told him were wrong.

Even saving 20 percent of 400,000 comes at quite a cost — at least $780,000 per job. How many workers would have been willing to quit working for GM for a $400,000 severance payment?

The “number-one automaker” assertion is no more accurate. Obama’s sales totals include 1.2 million mostly cheap commercial vehicles built by China’s Wuling, a company in which GM owns a small stake, and it excludes sales by vehicle makers in which Volkswagen owns a majority share. Fortune magazine lists GM’s revenue as smaller than Toyota’s and Volkswagen’s.

The only real winners from the GM bailout were unions, which were protected from pay cuts, from losing their right to overtime pay after less than 40 hours a week, and from cuts to their extremely generous benefits. They faced only minor tweaks in their inefficient union work rules.

As for “hundreds of thousands of new workers,” the truth is closer to a tenth of that.

Having just $34 billion to show after a $100 billion-plus investment would get a chief executive of any private company fired. Unfortunately, Obama does not seem to understand how this money has been wasted.

— John R. Lott Jr. Economist

bored reader

Like button please....give me a like button. Now here comes the liberal junkies to declare the Obie successes. Maroons.

mikel

not only does gm still owe the fed gov't billions of dollars the toll has climbed higher than originally thought. the interest that the fed gov't has had to pay on borrowing money to bailout gm and chrysler has cost extra of $millions$ of dollars. gm also is using some of the bailout money to finance the expansion of factories in both china and mexico. the chinese and mexicans would like to thank the american gov't for providing them jobs while americans sit at home collecting unemployment or welfare. thats a good trade off...not!!

Taxed Enough Already

Also many of the GM jobs have gone to Canada. I for one will never buy a GM car again and for the first 30 years of my purchasing cars they were mostly GM cars. I prefer to purchase vehicles made in America.

Bess

Bored-
It's moron not "maroons".

Randy_Marsh

Not a big Bugs Bunny fan huh? What a maroon.

bored reader

Thanks, glad someone got it. Bring back the real cartoons!!

Taxed Enough Already

I use that comment all the time...I love it. "What a maroon"!

JACKEL

Bess,I believe he meant Bozo was a Maroon,Moron !

The Big Dog's back

If Government was intended to be a business, the Founding Fathers would have written our Constitution that way.

mikel

then they should stay out of business's

Darwin's choice

So, failure at it is acceptable to you?

Erie County Resident

This is the only statement you've ever made I can agree with.
To bad Ovomit is trying to take over all business's in the USA.
Healthcare, banking, autos, insurance, etc..etc..
He wants to run them all.
Government has no business period putting one cent into any form of company to turn it into a state operated or guided business.
But Ovomit wants to be everyones savior and buy their votes.

JACKEL

Have you seen the new ad with the kids singing ?

deertracker

Think much? Ditto head! Get original please!

eriemom

I know that this is old and you may not read my reply, so I also posted it on the Kasick/economy story. You need to find this and read it.

Obama hired Steven Rattner, himself a millionaire hedge fund manager, to head the task force that would negotiate with the troubled firms and their creditors to avoid the collapse of the entire industry. In Rattner’s memoir of the affair, Overhaul, he describes a closed-door meeting held in March 2009 to resolve Delphi’s fate. He writes that Delphi, now in the possession of its hedge fund creditors, told the Treasury and GM to hand over $350 million immediately, “because if you don’t, we’ll shut you down.” His explanation was corroborated by Delphi’s chief financial officer, John Sheehan, who said in a sworn deposition in July 2009 that the hedge fund debt holders backed up their threat with “an analysis of the cost to GM if Delphi were unwilling or unable to provide supply to GM,” forcing a “shutdown.” It would take “years and tens of billions” for GM to replace Delphi’s parts. At that bleak moment, GM had neither. The automaker had left the inventory of its steering column and other key components in Delphi’s hands. If Delphi laid siege to GM’s parts supply, the bailout would fail and GM would have to be liquidated or sold off—as would another Delphi dependent, Chrysler.
Rattner could not believe that Delphi’s management—now effectively under the hedge funders’ control—would “want to be perceived as holding GM hostage at such a precarious economic moment.” One Wall Street Journal analyst suggested that Singer was treating Delphi “like a third world country.” Rattner likened the subsidies demanded by Delphi’s debt holders to “extortion demands by the Barbary pirates.”
Romney has slammed the bailout as a payoff to the auto workers union. But that certainly wasn’t true for the bailout of Delphi. Once the hedge funders, including Singer—a deep-pocketed right-wing donor and activist who serves as chair of the conservative, anti-union Manhattan Institute—took control of the firm, they rid Delphi of every single one of its 25,200 unionized workers.
Of the twenty-nine Delphi plants operating in the United States when the hedge funders began buying up control, only four remain, with not a single union production worker. Romney’s “job creators” did create jobs—in China, where Delphi now produces the parts used by GM and other major automakers here and abroad. Delphi is now incorporated overseas, leaving the company with 5,000 employees in the United States (versus almost 100,000 abroad).

Romney benefited from TARP personally. To the tune of millions. I am still digging, but I think that much of the money that went to Romney was from the liquidation of pensions.

John Harville

Yes to the initial question.

DGMutley

Not only did Presidents Bush and Obama bail out Ohio jobs but their actions prevented the world from going into a depression. Serious stuff here, folks.

Governor Romney likes to brag about balancing the budget at the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City but neglects to say he did it with a 600 million dollar government bailout and an additional 1.2 billion from the government for infrastructure improvements--talk about spending government $$$.

Erie County Resident

Sure thing DG, here is where a lot of our tax dollars for GM went.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L...

DGMutley

ECR, I glanced at the video, thanks for sharing it. The ad that is running claiming GM used the bailout money to boost China operations is rated false by PolitiFact.com.

It isn't any secret that GM has been most profitable in its out of country operations. When China has 1.3 billion people it would be foolish not to enter that market.

I was a bit miffed that one of the first things GM did with the bailout money was to close 1100 dealerships. Kind of contrary to the theory of marketing.

Nevertheless, without GM's bailout we would have been in dire straits.

JACKEL

Where did the money come from?

Darwin's choice
Mime Bloggling's picture
Mime Bloggling

Here's 22,000 reasons why NOT to vote for Obama.

http://www.detroitnews.com/artic...

Delphi debacle spoils Obama bailout boast

sanduskysteve

Funny - what this obviously anti-obama article fails to mention is that it was an investment by a Romney company that closed most of those plants and sent them to China and Romney made literally millions from that bailout money AND from gutting the company - just like he has done in the past with Bain. Sometimes the facts get into the way of reality huh?

Erie County Resident

Really sanduskysteve?
Watch this entire video and then tell me all about China & GM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L...

sanduskysteve

I was specifically referring to delphi - and I don't need to watch a video - I know what happened - you should probably stay off of youtube and check actual facts for a change. romney made millions from the delphi move to china.

John Harville

Oh oh Steve. Careful. They don't like facts.

sanduskysteve

Well, here is another big one they can chew on for a while - I believe by now, most of you have read my comment telling that the Romney Bobblehead is made in China in a factory that his brother-in-law OWNS over there. Today I found out that if you compare the baseball hats for Romney-Ryan with those made for Obama-Biden - you would find yet another telling bit of information - the Romney hats are "Made in China" whilc Obama's hats all say "Made in USA". Strange how the China thing keeps coming back to bite Romney in the arse - and he is still going to "get tough on China". Like hell he will -he loves China and has proven it over nad over and over again. Would a republican like to comment on this one? No one did on the bobble-head comment. Of course, republicans will just post another link to youtube or FOX - or use the normal change the subject - throw an insult and run away as fast as possible from and actual FACT.

Darwin's choice

The same old song and dance Obama......http://youtu.be/fZgQhnNRSuw

The New World Czar

Not everyone drives GM and Chrysler products. We'll remember that at the polls as Obama's big lead has shrunk to a dead heat.

By the way, how's everyone's GM stock doing today?

coasterfan

At the end of the day, nothing Republicans can say will erase the fact that Obama saved hundreds of thousands of jobs with the auto bailout, and the fact that Romney was in favor of all those jobs vanishing into thin air, since he didn't support the bailout. So, tell us, dear conservatives: since you're always harping about unemployment, why don't you denounce Mitt for being so obviously anti-job growth in Ohio?

Mitt Romney, the only candidate in history running on a promise to take away basic medical care from more than 20 million people (since he has promised to abolish the Affordable Health Care Act), and the first to promise to dismantle Medicare (his plan will result in a voucher system, resulting in out of pocket expenses for seniors). Romney is also on record as promising to do away with the college tuition tax credit and the homeowner mortgage interest deduction - both clearly will hit middle class people hard,
His own words and promises, folks....

Swamp Fox: news flash, we're not electing a financial advisor, we're electing a president. Anyone who actually believes that business experience is necessary for the job of president, should consiider 2 names: Herbert Hoover and George W.Bush. What do they have in common, you ask? They were the only 2 businessmen elected president. Hoover gets credit for the Great Depression and I think we all are quite familiar with the Bush Recession.

Riskkbreaker

@Coasterfan..the "Bush" recession? Surely you jest.
I take it you still have not read, in detail, http://www.commentarymagazine.co...
Bush was far greater than Obama. I know I was doing fine until a few years after the Democrats took control of Congress in the 2006 elections.

sanduskysteve

I'm curious how your experience would have differed if McCain and Palin would have gotten into office. Can someone tell he about that?? You don't know because they were not elected - you could take them at their word - in which case - I'm sure you would have been much worse off today as they were not really interested in fixing anything or even TRYING to fix something. I mean Palin didn't even know what the Vice President's job was. McCain wanted more war and raising taxes. I'm confused how things would have been any different. Either one of them would have had to deal with a total mess just like the current person.

real talk

I would take time to argue with you GOP koolade drinkers but there is no reason to. Obama is going to win, I know it, you know it. Feel free to be pissed for the next 4 years while the economy keeps getting better.
Looking forward to Clinton 2016

meowmix

Amen to that !!!!!!!

Riskkbreaker

In what alternate reality is it getting better? In every scenario, one of two things is happening..either it is clearly worse, or some things look better as they "re-arrange the chairs on the deck of the Titanic."

coasterfan

Mitt stepped in it again today. When yet another GOP candidate said something Neanderthal about abortion today, Mitt could have earned points by denouncing the candidate from Indiana. instead, Mitt said that he still supports Mourdock, but doesn't support what Mourdock said. This is what we call Classic Political Double-Speak, courtesy of the Wind Sock known as Willard "Mitt" Romney. Poor Mitt, he doesn't realize just how anti-woman he and his party really are.

Daylight Savings Time approaches. Democrats, don't forget to set your clocks back one hour. Republicans don't need to do anything, since your candidate has already turned back your clocks 60 years for you...

Darwin's choice
Gardenman

My vote is in....absentee and setting at the Board of Elections. I am very satisfied with my vote for President Obama. I feel he did save the US auto industry and will not tied to that it is important to me those jobs are still in the American economy.

There is such devisive actions in this election. Just tonight I got an email from a friend that Obama has stopped Bibles being placed in Veteran hospitals. Said it was checked with Snopes.com. Within 5 minutes another receiver of the message said he checked with Snopes.com and it was corrected 2 years ago when this came out is was a lie. Like I say such junk that floods people's homes and emails etc on stuff that is just not true. So much seems to be directed at the defeat of Obama.

Well I will tell you a truth on me.....Ryan scares the living daylights out of me. This guy wants to cut Social Security and Medicare. No lie about that at all. I fail to understand how any senior can support Ryan for VP.....its beyond me how they want to lose a portion their income.

Erie County Resident

You don't see how any senior can support Romney?
We've already got a glimps of what is to come already. No or only a tiny increase in monthly SS checks but huge rate hikes for Medicare with more to come as Ovomitcare goes into to full swing.
These are FACTS by actual people living it. No stupid snopes check needed.
And to you liberals that say SS is an entitlement program no its is not. Entitlements like Welfare and Medicaid are not paid into by the future recipients, like SS and Medicare are.

The Big Dog's back

Yep, why would we need to factcheck. Whatever comes out of rightwing world is gospel. Uh huh.

sanduskysteve

I believe it is the GOP that insists on calling SS and Medicare entitlements. In fact, those receiving those "entitlements" are part of the 47% that Romney doesn't care about. I'm a liberal independant and I have fought tooth and nail against the idea that SS is an entitlement - stop confusing facts here. Obama KNOWS they are not - GOP doens't realize that and really doesn't care.

John Harville

@REsident... does it hurt to be so wrong? All those years I paid SS and Medicare Tax, I was paying to support benefits being concurrently received by my parents and grandparents. My children will be paying my benefits. SS actually IS an entitlement - since I paid the tax I am entitled to a benefit, though hopefully larger than what I paid. Welfare and Medicaid are paid by people who pay taxes on income and property and to which their recipients are 'entitled' by fact of residency or having worked at some point OR having been born into impossible situations.
That word 'entitlement' is used as something dirty and unearned and undeserved by people who never have faced difficult situations.

Riskkbreaker

@ Gardenman I don't understand what leads you to this conclusion. Obamacare WILL take 700 billion out of Medicare to fund Obamacare's govt-run "public option."

As for Ryan's plan, have you investigated what this voucher system actually is? It is the same option that Congress enjoys and now Ryan has penned a plan to give it to the people as well. You can keep your current Medicare plan OR you can use your Medicare benefits to purchase any private plan in the country IF you want to. The "voucher system" is just a voucher FROM Medicare..to purchase a private plan, but only IF you want to use it.

Compare that to Obama, who wants to keep that option from the people and let Congress keep it for themselves..while he sinks Medicare (by way of forcing doctors to no longer accept Medicare patients because it would be financial suicide to accept them) in order to force the people onto the "public option," which, yes, does include a panel of 15 unelected bereaucrats who are in charge of cutting costs.
(Even Biden tried to downplay it, at the debate with Ryan, brushing it off by saying "Yah, I heard about panels from Sarah Palin, but let's talk about Medicare." So, in effect, he immediately changed the subject to how Medicare is doing now, as opposed to how it will be doing after Obamacare takes full effect).

Voting for Obama's health care plan leads to what is already going on in the U.K. --> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/...
Be sure to read the whole article.
Whistleblower "Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year," many of which are prematurely euthanized for economic convenience..the doctors having misled the family to approve the procedure. That's end-of-life "care" for ya.

Bottom line, giving people the "voucher system" OPTION, which Congress enjoys, is far better than withholding it from the people and giving them, instead, the "public option."

sanduskysteve

Too bad, but the government run public option was removed from the bill before it was signed into law - that was one of the things that did not make it to the final bill/law. That does not exist and is not in effect or will it be, so that is totally out of the question in this. Also, the panels which Biden was referring to were the supposed "death panels" which Palin thought up out of the blue with nothing to back it up. The "panel" question has been asked and answered several times - it's a dead horse.
Also, Obamacare clearly states that you can keep your current plan if you want to - there is nothing that says you MUST change insurance companies. In fact, it would probably be unsmart to give up what you have been paying for for years. I believe that is the same thing that you have insisted the medicare voucher system is going to allow. Why is that so bad, if it is ok for seniors? This is the result of not getting facts before spewing statements about.

Riskkbreaker

@sanduskysteve What is the 700 billion dollars going to fund then, if not the "public option?"
Look at your typo above. You meant to say "it (the public option) is not in effect, NOR will it" but, instead, you typed "OR will it be."

It was taken out? Are you sure? And what is going to happen when Medicare fails as doctors CONTINUE the CURRENT trend of refusing Medicare patients?
Obama will say "This is why I originally put a 'public option' in Obamacare. The Republicans wanted it out. Now we need it. I was right. Blah Blah."
It will be back on the table and re-visited..or maybe enacted as an emergency Executive Order. People will bow their head and agree and, as I said, be forced onto it..while Congress continues to enjoy the Premium Support voucher OPTION (key word, option).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D...
Please pay attention..all the way through (it is only like 10 minutes).

The panels are not a dead horse. I have listened to Democrats try to downplay the "unelected bereaucrats" part, while defending the panel which you seem to believe does not exist.
As I recall, they did not deny the existence of the panel..they merely attempted to debunk the "death panel" label. And that is why I linked the article (in my original comment above) from the U.K. Guardian..to show you how it is possible to happen without actually being labeled as such in the mainstream.
Read that article (in the previous comment) and then watch the video I posted (in this comment). Think about it.

sanduskysteve

Are you kidding me? I'm supposed to listen to what Paul Ryan has to say about anything???? If medicare is in such bad shape (and I'm sure there are issues with it), then why does Mr. Ryan want to also cut 718 million dollars from it?? It it in HIS budget as well. Everyone loves to ignore that part of this.

Starr

I have three questions that I would like to pose for the voters in Ohio.

First, why did Obama let over 20,000 auto workers and their families (non labor employees) get a reduced pension or none at all when he saved all the union pensions? Seems unfair to me especially if I was one of the 20,000.

Second, look past the fact that we are either democrat, republican, or independent, and ask yourself this question. Do we want our kids and their future to be like the past four years?

Third, can we trust our president and secretary of state with the next four years if they cant even tell the truth even though there is proof they knew the truth about the killing of our ambassador?

deertracker

I bet you had no idea who the ambassador to Libya was before this. Stop trying to find fault in every little thing that did not turn out perfect while he was trying to fix things.Our kids and grandkids have to find their own way just like we all had to. No guarantees....remember? My brother was a union employee and receives a REDUCED pension. Fact! Do you want any political figure telling you what you can or can't do with your OWN body? Would you like your kids and grandkids to have access to healthcare if they should need it? How about access to a good educatiion so they may have that life that is better than the last four years? Answer those three questions!

Randy_Marsh

"Do you want any political figure telling you what you can or can't do with your OWN body?"
Quit taxing smokes and telling me to eat healthy then.

sanduskysteve

"cant's do with your OWN body?" That's really funny coming from a republican who believes that every woman's body in america belongs to the government.

John Harville

Randy quit taxing smokes....? Okay. We can do that... But when you get sick and end up in the hospital, don't expect us to pay your bills or your long-term care or have our insurance premiums increased because you are undersinsured or uninsured.

bored reader

Stop trying to find fault in every little thing that did not turn out perfect while he was trying to fix things

Seriously?? So the needless death of 4 Americans was just a little thing? You need help. Typical lib.

The Big Dog's back

How about the needless deaths in the Repubs Iraq war? Over 4 THOUSAND.

John Harville

1. That was a Bain Capital decision to move Delphi to China... who still has a share in Bain Capital? Who chose to be non-union managment?
2. Yeah. I'm glad my children and grandchildren live in a world where God still expects that we help each other. I'm glad they've lived the last 12 years learning that despite vile people who try to take all the good pieces for themselves, God still inspires the good angels among us to inspire us to care for ALL of us.
3. Yes. NOBODY yet knows the 'truth' about the deaths at the mission (not an Embassy) in Bengazi. Claims they 'knew' are based on emails about FB and Twitter postings by a group that claimed - then later denied - responsibility. You claim 'proof'... produce or retract.

KURTje

Ooo you drive something else. Big wup. Just vote.

Starr

For all you people that voted for Obama and you think that the last four years were so good, I have land in Florida to sell you. His record shows that more people are poorer today then four years ago.

For me, my pay check is smaller and my house value has gone down. Wait, now I remember, it was the last president that caused all of that. Get real! When you become in charge, all the responsibilities becomes yours.
He blames everyone but himself, maybe that is why we are in the position we are today and not on the road to recovery.
Have you looked at stock market lately? Have we reached 14000 yet? If not we are not better off today... period!

And by the way I have not voted yet. Still finding out facts that this president is not for this country!

sanduskysteve

Starr - yes when you become in charge, responsibility is yours - but if you come in charge you also have to deal with the issues created which are already there and you have no control over - much of the problem in the last four years and for years to come ARE a result of things that happened BEFORE Obama took charge. Get Real, yourself. Why is everyone willing to put another republican into office after what the last one did. What happened to your statement that when you become in charge all responsibilities are yours? He came into charge with a large surplus - what happened to that? Why was he allowed to drop the ball and leave this mess for someone else to fix? There is NO responsibility for what he has done while HE was in charge. Your theory only applies if the person in charge ACTUALLY takes responsibility. We are in the position we are in today - PARTLY because of the mess left behind by the last guy in charge who did NOT take responsibility. Or do only democrats have to follow the responsibility rules?
You honestly think things wlil be better under Romney??? You need to get real on that issue as well. Romney has NO plans to do anything while he is in office and he has made sure his promises are for 8 or more years out so that he doesn't have to take responsibility either. Balanced budget in 10 years - what???? He is going to shut down tons of subsidies which will cut employment - NOT increase it. His own advisors are saying his boasting of 12 million new jobs is impossible. In fact, there are lots of facts out there - if you stop watching FOX news and actually do your homework to show that Romney is promising everything and has no ability to complete any of those promises. The only thing that will happen for sure is that we will be in a war with Iran within one year and China will be paying for it. Remember, Romney owns the voting machines in Ohio and other states - Romney's brother in law owns manufacturing in China and Romney benefited billions from the bailouts that he now detests - sure he does - AFTER he got more rich. And removing the taxes on investment income - would mean he would not pay 14% on his millions - but he would then pay NOTHING on them. While the rest of us get hammered on taxes. Sure, bigger paycheck, but higher taxes paid - with less likely getting a refund. So, the middle class DOES pay while the rich pay less.

Starr

I can't believe that Obama lovers don't know anything about leadership and integrity.

Yes when you take over command, you have problems that is left from the other guy. Just like every president in the past including Ronald Reagan, who took over for the worst president ever Jimmy Carter. But guess what? He took responsibility once he got into office.
The late great JFK did as well. But if you are not a leader and cant lead, then you blame others.

Obama care and his spending will turn this country upside down and our kids and their kids will be left with nothing but a big bill. I guess this great country has turned into a bunch of people that want hand outs.

Another suggestion... If we want to be fair, tax everyone the same. Now that is being fair!

NO, I don't want a political figure telling me what to do like Obama saying, lets tax the rich, because that will not help.

Yes, the ambassador to Libya was killed by the government not doing their job of supporting them. He requested help, told them what was going on, and they chose to do nothing. If that was you and your kids, wouldnt you expect the support of your government?

States, not the Federal government can best run the states. That has been proven, so why are we increasing federal jobs? Look at all the countries over seas that are failing and one thing they all have in common. BIG GOVERNMENT AND A TON OF TAXES. Hey, that sounds like Obama!

sanduskysteve

You mentioned taxing everyone the same - I have been saying that - but you don't pay much attention to my posts - unfortunately, the GOP doesn't want that route - they are only for things that lower the taxes on the rich. Give Romney 1 year and he would make things so bad people would run to Canada and elsewhere to get away from the disaster. You keep saying taxing the rich won't help - it surely did when Clinton did it. And Bush destroyed everything Clinton did that was good. Forget the bad thing that he did. It really didn't effect a single person in this country.

Riskkbreaker

http://www.commentarymagazine.co...
@sanduskysteve Read that article and then re-think everything you have said about the economy.

The Big Dog's back

So you Repubs are finally taking responsibility for crashing our economy?

John Harville

Starr... Really?
"Have you looked at stock market lately? Have we reached 14000 yet? If not we are not better off today... period!" Why is 14,000 a landmark? We were at 7,000 when President Obama took office. Now we are over 13,000! If we were at 14,001, you'd cry because we are not at 15,000.
"When you become in charge, all the responsibilities becomes yours." REALLY? So, to follow your reasoning, when my stepfather married my mother he assumed all the problems my father left behind?
"Still finding out facts that this president is not for this country!" So why haven't you voted for Romney? You still must have doubts. How did your paycheck get smaller. Your house value has gone down because of all the unfit mortgages written before 2008, before foreclosures by the hundreds, before bank failures, before.... Obama.
Put the blame where it belongs - in the only branch of government that raises revenues and creates budgets - the House of Representatives.

There you go again

Unions won
Everyone else lost!

phroggy

I have to remind everyone that GM did in fact file and go through bankruptcy. The bailout was to avoid a lengthy restructuring process. I can't stand Obama but the route he chose for GM was a good one. Also, let us not forget that the federal government did NOT bailout Chrysler the same way. Italy owns their debt.

John R Lott certainly has a point but fails to list ALL the facts. BTW, economists are a dime per dozen. Much like meteorologists, they get paid whether right or wrong.

Phil Packer

The so called "glory days" of the 70's, 80's, and 90's were the same time that the Japanese auto makers got a foothold in our market. If you bought an American made car in the late 70's or the 80's, then you know why that happened. GM should have folded back then.

Contango

Mr. Romney suggested govt. "bridge loans" for the auto cos. as was done for Chrysler under Pres. Carter.

GM is using subprime loans and channel stuffing to boost sales of it's U.S. products.

In Italy, Fiat is a financial mess.

With nationalization, the U.S. taxpayers only temporarily put off the future bankruptcy of both GM and Chrysler.

Gov. Romney's op-ed from '08:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/1...

deertracker

Oooooo... those subprime loans again? What about that Wall St. bailout? C'mon, cheer up.

Contango

@ deertracker:

Didn't the U.S. taxpayer "bailout" GM once already?

It's from the liberal Huffington Post so it's safe for you to read:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/20...

the office cat

And what was that lawsuit filed yesterday against Bank of America?

2cents's picture
2cents

(The so called "glory days" of the 70's, 80's, and 90's were the same time that the Japanese auto makers got a foothold in our market.)

I had a friend that worked at New Departure, he would punch in sneak under the fence and party all night only to come back and punch out. He was caught but not fireable because of the union strength. I also restored cars and when I repainted my 1975 Cutlass there were only three of the six screws in place to hold in the tail light assembly. The Japanese used quality control programs that are instituted today; they are expensive and drive up costs. I recently lost work to China because of price, well ISO certification required by auto makers’ costs money, when they saw they could save money they ran to China and left us with a nice quality program they mandated, go figure.

As for China, Obama has not mentioned it for four years, why now? Romney and his companies may have gone there, I am going there now to compete, it is a vicious circle and there are no magic bullets. If you want to try and make a difference then stop buying the widgets you need that are marked “Made in China” Ha Ha! You can’t, almost all consumer items are now made there and how would any politician make any sudden change. Personally I believe that the change will only come as the Chinese people desire a better standard of living, this will take time so keep buying your widgets or go without. Oops! Then there is another country to move to.

the office cat

Obama hasn't mentioned China in four years? He took a lot of verbal lashing when he stopped inferior tires and - at the urging of the Chamber of Commerce and many likeminds - he has refrained from naming China a currency manipulator though he has discussed repeatedly the problems with Chinese currency.
Among his 'day one' activities, Romney will make the 'manipulator' charge - and then see what happens when you "go there to compete".

Contango

@ the office cat:

The Fed has been trashing the dollar. The yuan is currently at a record high against the USD.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB...

Finn Finn

"We were lucky. We worked through the glory days of the 1970s, '80s and '90s," Vukovich said. "Those days are over. But I have great insurance and I have a great retirement."

Honestly, I really believe that people like this are just too ignorant to realize how hurtful and offensive a statement like that is. I'm not trying to be insulting or mean but do these self-absorbed people ever think before they speak? The boasting by some of these people just provokes more ill will. Yeah, we get it. You're retired and living the life of Reilly on a GM pension. Now go and "share the wealth" with your non-UAW neighbor. ZIP-IT for Pete's sake!

the office cat

A world of "people like this" make up most of the posters here... they'll be happy to tell you about their gold, and their investments, and their comfortable pensions - and you don't even have to ask.

I don't begrudge anybody a pension earned in hard work.

I only wish I had lived during those 'glory days'... of 18% Reagan mortgages (oh, I did)

Contango

@ the office cat:

So you did you enjoy Mr. Carter's stagflation and gas lines more?

sanduskysteve

Carter's gas lines were a very large scam committed by the oil companies. I worked at a gas station pumping gas during that time adn I can tell you they had so much gas they didn't have room to store it all and the delivery drivers were told DO NOT COME BACK WITHOUT AN EMPTY TRUCK so the drivers were literally giving the extra away to top off storage tanks at various gas stations otherwise they would have to just dump it someplace. There was no gas shortage and I believe that all came out later. Of course, did the oil companies get into trouble for that? Absolutely not - they are protected by the government. Just like they are now with their price fixing activities and gouging.

Finn Finn

I'm still trying to figure out what the point of your first paragraph is??? That's pretty much what I was saying!

Most people won't begrudge anyone a pension earned in work (in light of the subject matter, let's leave the word "hard" out and not insult everyone's intelligence, okay?). What offends so many "ordinary" non-UAW people is that the tax dollars taken out of their HARD EARNED paychecks is going to sustain the comfortable pensions of these boastful (still working or retired) UAW people (aka 'people like this'). Most blue collar pensions will amount to only a fraction of a UAW pension. And these folks will all admirably manage somehow to make ends meet, and probably with a heck of a lot more grace than their bombastic UAW neighbors.

The UAW likes to project that they are blue collar, hard working, the voice of middle America. Yet, at the same time, they like to think they are superior within the middle class by virtue of their inflated wages, benefits, pensions. They rage on and on with envy at the millionaires, bankers, CEO's, etc., yet they sure like to crow about how great their wages, benefits, retirement plans are to those who aren't "intelligent and ambitious enough" to be UAW. Sarcasm intended.

John Harville

I'm still trying to figure out what you can't figure out about Cat's first paragraph.
Oh... is it that most of the posters here are UAW workers/retirees?
Or... do you have a grudge against UAW?
Or... were you 'hit' by the Bain Capital move of Delphi to China?
Or... do you begrudge most anything better than what you have?

OMG.LOL.WT_

Just wait 'til "let em go bankrupt" Mitt gets in. Everyone will have a job. Ha Ha Ha

the office cat

If you have any doubt who's going to carry Ohio, just read this blog. Cats recognize 'scaredy' more readily than others.

the office cat

OMG... yup, everyone in China.

the office cat

Oct. 25, 2012
Executives Who Support Tax Increases to Fix the Deficit
Executives at more than 80 major U.S. corporations released a statement in October to pressure Congress to reduce the federal deficit with tax increases and spending cuts. The declaration differed sharply from those of other business groups that urge Washington to deal with the deficit and avoid across-the-board spending cuts and tax increases, but avoid any stance on the issue of raising taxes
Wall Street Journal. I can post articles, too. You should see the names on the list. Really. You should!

the office cat

FIX THE DEBT... to drop a few: Aetna, Alcoa, Allstate, AT&T, BoA, Boeing, Cisco, Honeywell, Marsh & McClennon, RR Donnely, State Farm, T Rowe Price, Time Warner, UPS, Walgreen, Weyerhauser... well, you can get a taste.

Randy_Marsh

Isnt that the list of lobbyist Obama has working in the white house?

John Harville

@RAndy... the Obama lobbyist list?
Hardly.
Some of them are his staunchest enemies.

Randy_Marsh

Some of them are his biggest supporters from 2008. Oh Dont forget GE and most of the unions got in to the WH among others. The "I will get rid of lobbyist" doesnt mean give them jobs in the WH.

mikel

the problem with that putty tat is that prezo wants to raise taxes but NOT reduce spending! he wants to ramp up entitlement programs and continue with failed programs that he started.

the office cat

Namecalling again. Read his plan for the next four years. And then tell us, at last, WHAT entitlement programs he wants to 'ramp up'. Republicans like to throw about that term 'entitlement' like something bad. But gosh darn it (that's for the Moderator) I've spent 50 years payin' SS taxes and all 47 payin' Medicare. You betcha I'm 'entitled'. Same goes for VA benefits - which Paul Ryan has budgeted to cut. Obama's plan includes reordering and revamping many government programs. The only BIG cuts the Republicans have made are in education - where people LEARN to do the work. Smart, huh?

mikel

just so we are clear putty tat. i have never said that social security or medicare is an "entitlement" program. if you have a legit disability that is one thing and acceptable in my opinion. however, ss disability is as corrupt as this current administration which is extremely high. cell phones for people??? please tell me why they should be "entitled" to a cell phone! i know you will say for emergency purposes. great! get them a cell that only dials 911 or get them life alert. why should my tax dollars go towards people getting free phones that can call or text? i can give many "entitlements" that are uncalled for. but, as i stated before, prezo has enslaved these people to him. they will do whatever he wants them to do because he feeds them. it makes me sick that people don't/won't/can't take responsibility for themselves any longer!!

John Harville

@Mikel. When YOU use the term 'entitlement' you are in Republicanspeak mode since Romney, Ryan, Perry, Gingrich, etc ad nauseum include SS and Medicare in 'entitlements' they want to gut, change or turn into voucher programs. And you throw in SSDI and call it corrupt "as this current administration..." From what I know, SSDI is so difficult to obtain that it takes 2-6 years after the disability to get approval. If there be any corruption in it, that corruption would be that it is so difficult and complex that attorneys take up to 40% of the benefit to take a case to court.
As for the cellphones - a program around under Bush - many people have them for seeking work as often the only chance for an interview comes via telephone. Calling/textiing is not unlimited. Many are used by older Americans who no longer can afford a landline or other home phone but still need to be checked on daily by family AND who still need to make doctor appointments and schedule rides to the appointments AND who need to call in prescriptions for delivery AND... oh well.

Contango

@ John Harville:

"Entitlements"? You're hung up on semantics.

There are no trust funds for SS or Medicare, they are pay-go Ponzi scams.

The money goes in, the money goes out.

Contango

@ the office cat:

It read like Simpson-Bowles or TRA86. When's Mr. Obama gonna come around and quit being a one note "tax the rich" Charlie?

John Harville

@Contango... Paul Ryan - who was on (?) the Commission, voted against Simpson-Bowles but now critizes Mr. Obama for not following it.

Contango

@ John Harville:

Mr. Obama commissioned it and then dropped the ball.

Mr. Obama has no idea how to negotiate.

"Eric...don't call my bluff."

http://thehill.com/homenews/admi...

eriemom

‘What’s happening in this room confirms what everybody across the country thinks about Washington, D.C.,’” the official said. “Which is that people are more interested in protecting their base and political positioning than solving problems.” Obama

No one in this country has any doubt about what happened.

deertracker

You people crack me up. Too funny with all your links! It has to be true if it is on the internet...right? LOL!

Contango

@ deertracker:

So since you're writing on the Internet, I shouldn't believe anything you write?

sanduskysteve

I would believe what he writes as a self-thinking individual more than I would what you write, which is mostly links to republican speakers or cut-and-paste from republican speeches - which are actually edited to completely change the context of what was said in the first place - oh wait - that was Hannity and Beck who does that all the time.

the office cat

If you have any doubt who's winning Ohio - and the Electoral College - and the country...just read all the political blogs here.

Contango

@ the office cat:

If Mr. Obama wins, the odds are that Congress will remain status quo - pretty much nothing changes.

Should be a fun two yrs. eh?

sanduskysteve

Hmm sounds like the last election of 2010 - if Obama wins - let's stop him from doing anything - that iwll teach america. Some plan - republicans are not out to HELP people, just keep democrats from getting anything accomplished.

John Harville

@Contango If Senate candidates keep 'legitimizing' rape and attributing it to God and calling rape "just another form of conception"...

KURTje

Have been very fortunate to experience many things in my life so far. Also having many relatives & friends directly involved with many things one tends to get educated by life. When you create & walk independent, life experiences can be huge. Many here by their own admission got great jobs & retired. Many here never knew war, ups & downs of America's economy, etc. Good for them.

eriemom

@Star: You really need to research the TARP and auto bailout. Pensions where lost to hedge fund liquidation and blackmail. Romney benefited from the liquidation and earned millions from pensions.

sanduskysteve

Thanks Eriemom, that's exactly what I have been trying to tell them, but they don't listen. They don't like to hear anything that isn't reported on FOX or if Rush and Hannity doesn't say it - it isn't true.

Mr. D

@eriemom. . . Read your posts about the hedgefunders and their threats to shut the auto industry down. . . Was a good read. . ,so sad these teatard jabberers won't read about it. . . Mitt is still their idol. . . So sad!!!

Finn Finn

E-mails, which have now become public, clearly show Obama Administration officials, Geithner chief among them, urging senior GM officials to gut pensions for salaried non-union employees in order to speed up GM's emergence from bankruptcy. These people got screwed, with the urging of the Obama administration. Let's not pretend otherwise.

John Harville

FINNFINNFINNFINNFINN...source for your post?
Bain Capital moved Delphi to China and made millions in the process. - Fox News. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Contango

@ John Harville:

So what Wall St. firm do you think that "Turbo Timmy" will run to after his time is up at the WH?

Delphi is a worldwide co. HQ'd in Troy MI.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/c...

sanduskysteve

Delphi is HQ in Troy - but what does that have to do with their closing a bunch of plants and moving them to China??? You think because a company has an office here everyting is ok? They why the crap about Jeep and GM then? Their offices are here. And that pretty much validates the fact that most of Romney's campaign material and products are made in China - of course HIS office is in the USA so it's ok. On that line of thinking - stop picking on Walmart - their HQ is also in the US.

eriemom

Yes, they did, but place the blame where it belongs. Go back to what caused the Geithner emails. Keep in mind that parts were not being shipped to the assembly plants by the time Geithner got involved to move the process along.

Mr. Romney's more recent statements (read-not true) about providing government bridge loans to the big three would have done nothing to keep parts moving from smaller companies. His interest was to protect stock holders and not jobs. He is anti-union and none of us should forget that, as we did when Gov. Kasick was elected.

Contango

@ Mr. D:

So why do public employee pension trusts invest billions of dollars worth of assets into hedge funds and private equity firms?

GM is on life-support and Chrysler is owned by a failing Italian auto co.

Some "save."

Mr. D

Tango, they invest in such things because the the fund trusts are managed by investment companies. Public employees have little or no say in where the fund is invested or why. Kind of like with your bank acct or your annuity, you know its there, but you dont know where its invested. Do you understand now?

Contango

@ Mr. D:

So is it your position that if public employees had a say over where their assets were invested that they would not put them in hedge funds or private equity firms?

You had better look up public employee pension trusts like Calpers, Calsters, SERS and PERS and see who controls their investment decisions.

Let me help educate you with the largest one in the world:

http://www.calpers.ca.gov/

eriemom

Funny that you keep bringing this up. These pensions lost a lot money during the meltdown. The whole thing makes Social Security a pretty good option in comparison.

coasterfan

Yeah, you're right Gardenman. Saw an article in a large city newspaper today telling how Obama forced abortions down Catholics throats. That's funny, I thought that Roe vs. Wade was on the lawbooks for about 40 years before Obama took office.

You're also right about Ryan. His budget plan ALSO includes the $716 billion of "cuts" in Medicare that Obama's does, yet he brings it up on every campaign stop. Never mind that it's not actually a cut in anyone's coverage, but rather a savings to taxpayers... Never mind that it's HIS plan to turn Medicare into a pay-as-you-go Voucher system. He is a snake in the classic Dick Cheney mold.

Colin Powell, an avowed Republican, is backing Obama. He cites the evidence that the economy is improving, and says that Romney clearly hasn't done his homework, with regards to foreign policy.

What bothers me is that Romney STILL hasn't given any credible statistics to show how he could possibly cut the deficit. He plans to further cut income/revenue, but plans to renew the Bush tax cuts to the rich, while expanding defense spending by $2 trillion. The math is easy: if you cut income and increase spending, you can't address the deficit.

The above problems are just at the federal level. Individual middle-class Americans will feel the pinch right in their pocketbook because Mitt is on record promising that he will do away with home mortgage tax deductions and college loan deductions on our federal taxes. He also plans to cut funding for college Pell grants. Overnight, these policies will take at least $3000 out of my pocket next year. It'll be the same for all of us, unless you're in Mitt's Lucky 1% Club.

It's not too late to wake up and take Romney at his word, that he will do the abovementioned things he promised to do during the GOP primaries are the real Romney. Regardless of whether you think Obama is the answer, it's quite obvious that Romney is NOT the answer. Romney's economic plan, what little he has divulged, is obviously a carbon copy of George W. Bush's. Regardless of what you think of Obama, does anyone really want to go back to 2007-2008? See kids, THAT is the "change" that Romney will bring.

If you have 2 minutes, check out a video on YouTube: do a search for "The Romney Presidency: A (Plausible) Look Back"

Riskkbreaker

@coasterfan
Plausible, you say?
http://dictionary.reference.com/...
plau·si·ble
   [plaw-zuh-buhl]
adjective
1.
having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: a plausible excuse; a plausible plot.
2.
well-spoken and apparently, but often deceptively, worthy of confidence or trust: a plausible commentator.

having an "appearance" of truth.."seeming"
"but often deceptively"

sanduskysteve

I'm not sure that Coasterfan was expecting a grammar lesson from the dictionary - I think a legitimate answer would have been more effective - oh wait - you're a republican - when backed into a corner - change the subject and run.

Darwin's choice

If you have a minute...this is a great endorsement for your guy Coasterfan......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e...

The Big Dog's back

Ever notice how the right wingers (fascists) want the country to be attacked again, they want the economy to crash, they want GM to burn, they want another war (Iran), they cheer terrorist attacks overseas, they want to keep women barefoot and pregnant.

Riskkbreaker

A demagogue calling someone a fascist. Oh, the irony.

swiss cheese kat

FORD DID NOT TAKE A BAILOUT.

eriemom

No, Ford didn't, but would have been affected as well. Did you watch the C-SPAN discussions?

bullydogs1971

here is what the automotive bail out got us...GM moved factories to china...

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/...

John Harville

Careful bully... already been disproved on the factories-to-China gig.

Contango

@ John Harville:

If I were you, I'd be more concerned with the solvency of Fiat.

Financially they are in serious trouble in Italy.

Also, in JD Power dependability surveys Chrysler ranks at the bottom.

sanduskysteve

awesome changed subject again........

Darwin's choice

If you have two minutes, check out this video.......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f...

John Harville

A simple reading of the ENTIRE article about 'Jeep jobs to China' touted by Romney in Defiance last week shows his allegation that Obama will move all Jeep plants to China is... well, we can't say it here.
Bloomberg said Chrysler will EXPAND to China with new plants.
Yet Toledo TV continues to run Romney's ad saying Obama will move the jeeps.

Contango

@ John Harville:

And Obama's death panels will order the killing of blue haired grandmothers and Romney wants poor people to starve.

Sort through the garbage and vote for the lesser of two evils or vote for an alternative.

Reads like you've got your mind made up anyway.

All I know is that I'm not votin' for Mr. Obama. Other than that, I'm not sure. Depends on the polls on Nov. 5.

sanduskysteve

Now, that's typical. Can't think for themselves when posting on a blog (cut and paste all the time) and now can't even make a decision on their own for who to vote for - just let the polls decide. Now, tell me - there are two options on the pools - you said you are not voting for one of them - why do you need to wait on the polls then? Or, are you still thinking if Obama is ahead, you may change your mind? Or is it to see if Romney needs the help and if not, you own't vote at all - just continue to complain for 4 more years.

goofus

At least under Romney's bankruptcy plan, GM would have had a chance to sell off or get rid of Opel in W. Germany, a definte money pit losing money daily.

eriemom

Under Romney's plan pension funds would have been liquidated.

Contango

@ eriemom:

Not possible. See: ERISA.

Ned Mandingo

How can auto bailouts that helped save millions of real americans jobs be bad but bailing out wall street criminals is never talked about.
George Bush was president when AIG got the first bailout sept. 2008. All the money AIG received weht to goldman sachs to pay a credit default insurance policy.
And no one cares about Ford not taking a bailout.WE HAVE SEEN THE COMMERICALS TOO. They are not the great american sucess story everyone thinks they are. Many of their vehicles aren't made in America.

OMG.LOL.WT_

Ned, you speak the truth.

Some on here are unaffected by truth.

Back in the 70s, the government helped the railroads, the airlines and EVEN Chrysler.

Contango

@ OMG.LOL.WT_:

Under Pres. Carter, Chrysler was supported by a bridge loan. The same method Gov. Romney suggested for GM and Chrysler.

The govt. still owns money losing Amtrak.

Contango

@ Ned Mandingo:

The U.S. financial community was on the verge of collapse without TARP. I recall that the Democrats who controlled Congress at the time overwhelmingly supported it.

The auto industry would have continued with a trimmed down GM and Chrysler. They went bankrupt and were slimmed down anyway.

Oops! Bloomberg says that Fiat may move Jeep production to Italy:

http://www.businessweek.com/news...

Jeep was the only reason that Chrysler bought AMC anyway.

The Big Dog's back

Your chicken little posts aren't worth commenting on.

eriemom

No, Democrates did not hold the House--purse strings of government.

Contango

@ eriemom:

The "Democrats" did not control the House and Senate in 2008 when TARP was passed?

Better check your facts.

The measure failed the first time in the House because the Repubs were not backing it. Speaker Nancy Pelosi railed against them to help the Dems pass it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tro...

eriemom

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk." (Romney)

Post bankruptcy. How does one shed real estate costs. Answer: Move production to other countries. How do you shed pension costs? Answer: Liquidate them.

Flailing in Ohio, Romney rolls out Jeep ploy: editorial
Published: Monday, October 29, 2012, 8:15 PM Updated: Monday, October 29, 2012, 8:15 PM
By The Plain Dealer Editorial Board

"But apparently Romney had been reading a blogger who misunderstood reports that Chrysler was looking to again make some Jeeps in China for that expanding market. The news is a sign of Chrysler's health, not of some sinister intentions by its management. The company is investing $500 million and hiring 1,100 workers at its Toledo Jeep plant. The day Romney misspoke, Chrysler announced plans to add 1,100 employees in Detroit, too. A company spokesman called any suggestion that Chrysler is abandoning its U.S. plants "a leap that would be difficult even for professional circus acrobats."

WTFU Ohio

Contango

@ eriemom:

Under Obama's bankruptcy and nationalization plan both GM and Chrysler did shed costs.

Japan is a moot point.

Fiat is talking about moving Jeep production to Italy.

Fiat is failing and needs another partner.

http://www.businessweek.com/news...

So have you bought a new GM or Chrysler recently and helped support 'em?

sanduskysteve

Do you think you can drop the Jeep BS once and for all? Jeep is not moving US plants to China - period end of discussion. It appears that although Romney is still spouting that crap - he also knows that it was not true. How's that for trying to trick people? Typical politician - lies out one side of the mouth while admitting you were wrong out the other side.